help needed - covert IR (no red glow) at 100 yards

[mike_va 0]

Any suggestions on how to do this (under 1K)? I only need a 20-30ft width. Prefer 940nm, or some filter that has a steep enough cutoff to not have a red glow. 940nm LED's must have a narrow enough spectral bandwidth to have no red glow (some of these still have a red glow, as noted in the manufacturer's datasheet).

 

I have a Raymax 100-10, which does a great job out to 75 yards, but is 850nm. I also have a Bosch BDS30-8, which does about the same at 30 deg, also 850nm. Takes a fair amount of power to do that...

 

Anyway that last 25 yards seems to be a sticking point...plus I want NO RED GLOW.

 

The one I am considering is a Magnalight HID with filter, they say there is no red glow talking to them on the phone. I cannot seem to find any comments from anyone that has used. However the filter they have looks great, it is very hard (impossible?) to buy filter material that does not have some red glow (best thus far has been 87C longpass).

 

http://www.magnalight.com/pc-1481-69-24-Volt-HID-Light--3200-Lumens--with-Covert-IR-Blackout-Lens-Cover.aspx

 

Actually bought a LED flashlight to get the reflector, as this will hit that distance with white light. LED is actually very wide angle. Got some Osram 1A 940nm +/-60 which work great indoors with no reflector, but was hoping to use the reflector to get out there. Anyway did not work that well, perhaps the flashlight used a wider angle source and narrowed it.

 

I've also purchase a bulk of Osram 940nm 8 deg LED's, but am doubtful I will be able to hit that distance. Going to try it as an experiment at any rate. Might also try pulsed to try and get there, but it may cause wavelength shift down into the visible...

 

Any advice appreciated.

[thewireguys 3]

Why does this person want no red glow?

[Soundy 1]

You could always set a standard illuminator back inside a tube... would still have the glow, but you'd have to be looking straight into the tube to see it.

[mike_va 0]

Why does this person want no red glow?

This person is me. It's pretty noticeable in a residential setting, it's gotten a lot of what the heck looks...

[mike_va 0]

You could always set a standard illuminator back inside a tube... would still have the glow, but you'd have to be looking straight into the tube to see it.

Interesting idea, but I'm trying to be invisible to the jokers that come and take the GPS in the middle of the night. It's fine being visible as a deterrent, but when it comes to prosecution I'd like as little connection as possible. A month or two ago, two guys walked down the culdesac (pretty rare) since enclosed and tried the neighbors car doors. As they were coming across I think they saw my dome cams and left. Two other times I've seen people inside cars down at the end of the culdesac rummaging around. Classic situation people around here have too much money (2nd median income in the country) and don't lock the car doors. So people know where to come for an easy GPS.

 

They may have seen the IR units, but you have to know what they are. Anyway, just trying to be as invisible as possible to the neighbors, thieves and teen vandals...

 

I like the idea though.

[ilk 0]

Any suggestions on how to do this (under 1K)? I only need a 20-30ft width. Prefer 940nm, or some filter that has a steep enough cutoff to not have a red glow. 940nm LED's must have a narrow enough spectral bandwidth to have no red glow (some of these still have a red glow, as noted in the manufacturer's datasheet).

 

I have a Raymax 100-10, which does a great job out to 75 yards, but is 850nm. I also have a Bosch BDS30-8, which does about the same at 30 deg, also 850nm. Takes a fair amount of power to do that...

 

Anyway that last 25 yards seems to be a sticking point...plus I want NO RED GLOW.

 

The one I am considering is a Magnalight HID with filter, they say there is no red glow talking to them on the phone. I cannot seem to find any comments from anyone that has used. However the filter they have looks great, it is very hard (impossible?) to buy filter material that does not have some red glow (best thus far has been 87C longpass).

 

http://www.magnalight.com/pc-1481-69-24-Volt-HID-Light--3200-Lumens--with-Covert-IR-Blackout-Lens-Cover.aspx

 

Actually bought a LED flashlight to get the reflector, as this will hit that distance with white light. LED is actually very wide angle. Got some Osram 1A 940nm +/-60 which work great indoors with no reflector, but was hoping to use the reflector to get out there. Anyway did not work that well, perhaps the flashlight used a wider angle source and narrowed it.

 

I've also purchase a bulk of Osram 940nm 8 deg LED's, but am doubtful I will be able to hit that distance. Going to try it as an experiment at any rate. Might also try pulsed to try and get there, but it may cause wavelength shift down into the visible...

 

Any advice appreciated.

 

 

Bosch do a 940nm version at 10 and 20 degrees width that are specified at 100yds and beyond.

 

I assume Raytec will do the same.

 

Watch for camera sensor sensitivity though as many only offer 30% (or less) efficiency at 940nm.

 

Regards

 

Ilkie

[rory 0]

Get the Bosch, they have all options you need.

[rory 0]

I know you like to save money, so maybe see if you can get a second hand UF500

But also source some bulbs as they blow ever year or two.

 

Or the UF100 even. You can also adjust the power higher to get further distance.

 

 

 

[mike_va 0]

I know you like to save money, so maybe see if you can get a second hand UF500

But also source some bulbs as they blow ever year or two.

I considered the UF500 but it did not look like it could get there. It seems from the charts we can't quite hit the 300ft mark with these and the 940nm (50% loss)? What's involved in turning up the power?

 

The Magnalight looks like it would do it at 1400' (with a tight but adequate spot), and it seems the HID has a lot more IR than halogens. Magnalight is a complete unknown to me. Bulbs look to be good for a year, and are not too expensive. Fairly low power consumption at 35W. Supposedly still a little better than LED's at output. They do have a return policy.

 

The Bosch SuperLED model looks pretty cool though. This is something that would not be quite as easy to build, as they probably take wide angle LED's and set the angle with the optics. It would also sacrifice some distance but be wider than the Magnalight.

[rory 0]

You probably get an extra 20% by turning the power up.

Its been a while so sorry I can explain LOL.

 

They also had the UF600 I think it was, which was much more than the UF500.

But the Super and UFLEDs replaced them all I believe.

I used the 940nm UF100 and UF500 .. both were invisible IR, least I could not see any glow and I was used to using 850nm. I had to turn the power up on the UF100 at the time due to the wide beam I was using. That was a short distance though, maybe 60-70'.

[ssmith10pn 0]

Wow that UF500 Lists for 1400.00

[rory 0]

Wow that UF500 Lists for 1400.00

10 years ago, MSRP.

Last time I bought one, or the client bought one, it was half that price.

But they certainly work like a bat out of hell.

Biggest drawback to them were the life of the bulbs.

[ssmith10pn 0]

Last time I bought one, or the client bought one, it was half that price.

 

Ahh That would be dealer cost currently.

[rory 0]

Last time I bought one, or the client bought one, it was half that price.

 

Ahh That would be dealer cost currently.

Dealer cost for a UF500 was around $600-700

Its been discontinued for a couple years now so should not see any new models anywhere.

 

There are some refurbs online for $600 retail, google UF500 and its one of the first results.

[ssmith10pn 0]

This is current pricing as of today Rory.

 

Maybe stuff is cheaper down on the equator.

 

SKU: UF500-60-730

HIGH PERFORMANCE INFRARED ILLUMINATOR (BULB), 60°, 730NM

List: $1,460.00

Wholesale Price: $730.00

[rory 0]

This is current pricing as of today Rory.

 

Maybe stuff is cheaper down on the equator.

 

SKU: UF500-60-730

HIGH PERFORMANCE INFRARED ILLUMINATOR (BULB), 60°, 730NM

List: $1,460.00

Wholesale Price: $730.00

 

Then they are ripping you off.

THEY DO NOT MAKE THE UF500 ANYMORE.

And I used to pay in the $600 range 5 years ago, dealer cost.

[rory 0]

This is current pricing as of today Rory.

 

Maybe stuff is cheaper down on the equator.

 

SKU: UF500-60-730

HIGH PERFORMANCE INFRARED ILLUMINATOR (BULB), 60°, 730NM

List: $1,460.00

Wholesale Price: $730.00

 

Additionally, every Extreme CCTV product had its list price marked up X2.

That doesnt mean thats what it was sold for at online retailers.

And every reseller/distributor would be buying at different levels from Extreme.

 

The nice thing about Extreme though, when they said 300' for example, it WAS 300', guaranteed everytime to be what they said it was. In fact they were so good with their calculations and testing that I myself made up the UF100 diagram you see above (based on the UF500 diagram and my experience using the UF100), and verified it with them.

 

But yeah even at dealer cost they were expensive.

Either way, its a pity they dont make the UF500 anymore, and even though it is listed on some sites still, it is not available from the manufacturer anymore. Bosch discontinued all the old designs, that old Derwent look, gone into the history books. In fact I have one of the EX26LEDs here and that thing rocks, but again that was a killer price of around $400 dealer (I got it 2nd hand for free).

 

Dont get me wrong, the UF500 WAS expensive.

Most people just couldnt afford their gear nor did most ever need it.

But man that was one of the first true flood IRs .. lit everything up like daylight.

It used Halogen bulbs by the way, average life span was 1-2 years, cost $80 dealer price to replace!!

And within 3' of the UF500 your skin would start to burn.

 

And oh yeah I almost forgot, it also used its own power supply which by the way you bought separate, so in fact the prices you see online, the products would have been useless without the PSU which is an additional $200

 

But if you think that is expensive, you should see the price on their new IR cameras, not worth it IMO.

[ssmith10pn 0]

We have a BOSCH UFLED120-8BD sitting on the shelf that was double ordered. I figured I would bring it home and play with it. Till I looked up the coast.

[rory 0]

We have a BOSCH UFLED120-8BD sitting on the shelf that was double ordered. I figured I would bring it home and play with it. Till I looked up the coast.

yeah they kill you on that price .. never had the chance to mess with one of those, just cheaper add a spotlight

[Stanislav 0]

Some laws which can be useful

The max range depends of square of IR intensity, wavelength. lens aperture and type of video sensor (IR sensitivity of video sensor).

 

Axial IR intensity depends on consumed power and greatly depends on beam angle. For example, changing beam angle from 20 deg to 10 deg can increase max IR intencity up to 4 times, that increases max distance up to SQRT(4)= ~ 2 times.

 

The same IR intensity of 850nm is in 2 times more effective than 950 nm, it increases max distance in SQRT(2)=1.4 times.

Using box camera with F1.2 lens instead of mini camera with F2.0 lens increases sensitivity in 2.8 times and maximal range in 1.6 times.

B/W camera with SONY ExView sensor is the most sensitive for IR. However TDN cameras with the same sensors are good for IR too, its IR sensitivity is worse in 1.5 times approx.

 

To get the maximal distance you need to maximize all these factors. In case of the resulted distance is not good, you need more than one illuminator. Additional illuminators can be placed in other places not obligatory near the camera.

[Stanislav 0]

But in many reality cases you can't achieve long distance of illumination in spite of enough IR power and camera sensitivity. If some bright object arises in front to the camera, then camera sensitivity will be limited to prevent white level limiting. In this case far objects will be dark. Actually it demonstrates lack of dynamic range. You should provide balanced illumination of the whole scene. Some improvements can be achieved by changing camera setting (level).

[mike_va 0]

Axial IR intensity depends on consumed power and greatly depends on beam angle. For example, changing beam angle from 20 deg to 10 deg can increase max IR intencity up to 4 times, that increases max distance up to SQRT(4)= ~ 2 times. The same IR intensity of 850nm is in 2 times more effective than 950 nm, it increases max distance in SQRT(2)=1.4 times.

I'm building some IR devices, just to play around. Found some nice tight optics and the same IR units that Bosch uses in their newer units. Should be fun. The numbers above sounded maybe a little theoretical, it can be adjusted based on published numbers from Bosch Raytec etc.

 

Going to try to get there, but I want to do it with IP cams so we shall see. I'll report back after I get something built. Decided to lay out some circuit boards.

 

The only thing that nags at me is the HID unit, since if they can do a steep cut at 850 with no red glow as they claim then they might utilize the sensor a little better. Some of the plots I've seen show the CMOS is closer and 940 vs 850 than CCD. Time to see what can be done.

[rory 0]

Use to be when you bought box cameras (for example GE, Sanyo, etc) they would give you the IR Wavelength they are sensitive to. I think it was the Sanyo I used with the 950nm IRs, but GE always listed in the 1000nm range also. Like Extreme used to say, not all cameras are built alike.

[mike_va 0]

Use to be when you bought box cameras (for example GE, Sanyo, etc) they would give you the IR Wavelength they are sensitive to. I think it was the Sanyo I used with the 950nm IRs, but GE always listed in the 1000nm range also. Like Extreme used to say, not all cameras are built alike.

It will be an interesting experiment. Osram says there is a tiny amount of red glow, 50-100x times less but we shall see.

 

Edit - replaced pic with 950nm version oops

Edited January 10, 2012 by Guest

[mike_va 0]

The other remaining aspect will be if the lenses are corrected at 950 also...

 

Wish Axis did like the 1080p Bosch and provided day and night auto focus points. The IR corrected lenses I have do provide a better picture at night even without an IR illuminator on. Wonder if anyone makes a 950nm corrected 100mm lens...May end up with separate day and night cameras.