a few general questions about IP system

[Zohan 1]

ok, so I've done a dozen or so analog systems, dvr's etc.....I am looking at moving into IP systems and have a few questions if you guys could answer would help, thanks.

 

1. Unless i'm confused there are more pieces of equipment in an ip system? An analog system has cams and dvr. IP has cams, i know that but after that i'm confused. Are there 2 different ways to go, first cams to pc with a card or second to an nvr....? Or, a third, cams to a switch, then to a nas...?

So im a bit unclear on this. I personally do not like the use of a pc (please dont turn this thread into 'pc is better' etc) so im left with an nvr or nas. I 'think' with nvr the viewing software is built in as opposed to a nas where i would have to configure the network to the nas, use cms software on a pc to reach the nas?

 

2. Are there 16 channel nvr's or only 8 channel?

 

3. I am concerned with motion blur with the ip cams.....any info on that appreciated.

 

4. I have been looking at some ip cams, and for my first step into ip system I would like to find cheaper ip cams (bullets) that have ir, possibly 1.3 mp. Im not looking for a 1500.00 camera for 300.00 bucks , dont get me wrong..just dont want to spend a ton right off the bat but also get cams with a nice pic. It would help if i could get them at dealer status.

 

last but not least.... a dvr is pretty much plug and play with a little networking...how hard is it to set up the network for ip system and then maintain it...i see some posts saying there is ongoing maintenance with ip systems?

 

Probably will have more questions as I think of them

thanks guys

Edited January 9, 2012 by Guest

[Seedigital 0]

Lot of questions, And I'm sure you'll get a bunch on answers,

 

IP isn't cheap, it is a premium product any which way you look at it, The cost which you would generally pour into the DVR you really put into the cameras and some.

There are very few scenarios where IP is cheaper and better.

 

A good example of this would be covering one area with a high res camera as opposed to multiple Analogue, But to be honest it doesn't happen often and you'll probably prefer the multiple angles that analogue will give you.

IP Fish eye cameras are awesome for this and sometimes can completely replace bunch of analogue cameras covering a room.

 

The NVR/NAS is pretty much just a big old storage box as majority of compression is done on the camera (well that depends on the model), but Having NVR software/hardware really helps keep information in order and avoiding wasted space on your hdd's which once you run with IP you'll realise is always in short supply the storage requirements are a big jump from analogue systems.

 

NVR's can be made to record 32 Cameras plus there is no real limit short of networking speeds and how much your willing to spend to build a system.

Little stand alone NVR's you get off of ebay are generally crap, (there are exceptions) most of them have power saving hard drives that crap out after a 12 months and lose important footage, or are devoid of features. They have there place, and can be good but if your serious about investing good money, then invest it in good kit.

 

I'll push you in the direction of geovision because its what i'm familiar with. the NVR software is free if you use Geovision cameras, they do a whole range on models are super easy to setup.

 

I think its "the Wire guys" on here that push Avigilon I haven't played with it but some of the guys here swear by it.

 

You really save your money on being smart with cabling and POE injectors. you can use a single cat5e/6 cable to carry a lot of video feeds as opposed to running a lot of coax or multiple cat's' with baluns.

 

Motion blur?, depends on the image capturing technology you want to use, and the frame rate you want to use. most new cameras motion blur isn't an issue.

 

I'm just spamming thoughts between emails, but its all food for thought!

[Zohan 1]

thank you for that info..

just to be clear, i realize ip wont be cheaper than analog....just saying i would like not to go high end with my first system....my main reason for going ip is for the resolution....

Also, do i need a 'seperate network' for the ip system or just run it on same network available?

And...

i was looking at some cams and was looking at you tube demo of GeoVision GV-BL110D IR Bullet IP CAM and saw some nasty motion blur.....what do i need to look at in the specs that will tell me if a cam will or will not blur?

And...is mpeg4 sufficient or stick with h264?

 

[Soundy 1]

ok, so I've done a dozen or so analog systems, dvr's etc.....I am looking at moving into IP systems and have a few questions if you guys could answer would help, thanks.

 

1. Unless i'm confused there are more pieces of equipment in an ip system? An analog system has cams and dvr. IP has cams, i know that but after that i'm confused. Are there 2 different ways to go, first cams to pc with a card or second to an nvr....? Or, a third, cams to a switch, then to a nas...?

IP cameras are recorded via network. You can record to an NVR (Network Video Recorder), which records only IP video, or you can record to a hybrid DVR, which is a DVR that records both analog and IP video.

 

NAS stands for Network Attached Storage. Most often, you'd use something like this for additional storage on a DVR or NVR that supports it, but a few cameras support writing directly to NAS drives.

 

In the most basic form, there's no extra equipment - you could just plug a single camera into the network jack of your DVR/NVR. For more cameras, you'd use a network switch. Or multiple switches, if that's how your network is set up. Basically, you just need to connect the cameras and recorder to the same network.

 

One of the real benefits if IP video is that it gives you a lot of options for configuring and laying out your system. With coax-based systems, it's one wire, one camera, and every wire has to run back to the DVR... with IP, you could run a dozen cameras over a single wire... or from a remote location... over wireless, over internet, over dedicated DSL...

 

Think of it like watching a YouTube video: the video has been digitized, and is sent over the network as a data stream - you run software on the other end that views it. Add a "YouTube Downloader" type plugin that saves your video to disk... and there you have the basic functionality of an NVR... except the source is a constant live stream from a camera, rather than stored on YouTube's servers.

 

So im a bit unclear on this. I personally do not like the use of a pc (please dont turn this thread into 'pc is better' etc) so im left with an nvr or nas.

You're left with NVR or hybrid DVR... or you're limited to cameras that can write directly to NAS.

 

2. Are there 16 channel nvr's or only 8 channel?

Since there are no PHYSICAL channels involved, there's theoretically no limit to the number of IP cameras that can be connected to an NVR. Most systems limit cameras based on performance constraints of the hardware. I don't deal with standalone NVRs, so I couldn't tell you what the "largest" ones are, but with PC-based systems, some software supports up to 64 "channels" on a single server.

 

BTW, keep in mind that most (almost all?) standalone NVRs you find technically ARE PCs, using standard PC motherboards and hardware, running probably an embedded version of Linux or similar embedded OS. Most NAS boxes you look at (QNAP, Synology, etc.) are embedded PCs as well.

 

3. I am concerned with motion blur with the ip cams.....any info on that appreciated.

Technically, no different than with analog cams (or even old film cameras, for that matter) - motion blur is entirely a function of shutter speed.

 

Most *megapixel* cameras have a potential drawback in that squeezing more pixels into the same size sensor means the pixels are smaller and thus can collect less light, potentially requiring a lower shutter speed... however, there's more to low-light performance than just pixel size.

 

There's an important distinction to be made here, BTW: IP is simply a transport method; there are lower-res cameras available (commonly VGA, 640x480) that use IP rather than analog transport. Analog video, however, is limited in resolution by the video standards used (NTSC/PAL) - thus, *megapixel* requires a different transport method, which means newer systems like SDI (maxing out at 2MP), or more traditionally, TCP/IP (cameras up to 29MP commercially available).

 

last but not least.... a dvr is pretty much plug and play with a little networking...how hard is it to set up the network for ip system and then maintain it...i see some posts saying there is ongoing maintenance with ip systems?

Horsehockey. Once the system is set up, there's NO reason it should need any special ongoing maintenance, beyond what you'd give a standard DVR.

[Seedigital 0]

You don't need a separate network, But i'd recommend it if they don't have good networking equipment.

If they have a decent 100/1000mbps then you could use say 4 cams without any noticeable impact, if you know they have a 1000mbps network then yeah you can probably have 8+ But you would want to start heading into your own network about then.

Also I'd look at using a different network IP range, that way you can segregate it out from the customers (if your running it over the same network).

 

Hmmm, In terms of that blur, that is one of the first model cameras they produced in early 2010, (not making excuses it isn't the finest example of IP cameras)

And it uses well lets say an infant cmos sensor, which does blur a bit (due to the rolling shutter) but since then there have been a lot of changes.

 

If your looking for something without blur look at some ccd based ip cams, there is a good thread somewhere on here on ccd vs cmos.

CMOS is a newer tech that with R&D will eventually surpass CCD.

 

Mpeg4 vs h.264, that depends they are just codecs, and depending on what your looking for you can spec but to me its much a muchness.

They both can do high res's at decent compression rates, and most cams will support streams of both codecs.

I say h.264 others may debate mpeg4.

[Soundy 1]

just to be clear, i realize ip wont be cheaper than analog....just saying i would like not to go high end with my first system....my main reason for going ip is for the resolution....

As Seedigital points out, megapixel CAN be a cheaper overall solution. And at least if you're looking at PC-based systems, it eliminates the need for separate capture hardware. There are per-camera licensing fees with some software, but as also noted, there are exceptions to that as well.

 

Also, do i need a 'seperate network' for the ip system or just run it on same network available?

For just starting out on a home setup, using your existing network is fine. The main concern in bigger systems is how the video traffic might affect other network traffic... that, and potential security issues.

 

i was looking at some cams and was looking at you tube demo of GeoVision GV-BL110D IR Bullet IP CAM and saw some nasty motion blur.....what do i need to look at in the specs that will tell me if a cam will or will not blur?

Since motion blur is a factor of shutter speed, and most cameras allow you to adjust the limits of your shutter speed, or even set a specific speed, it's more a matter of how the camera deals with low light. Unfortunately, with no industry specs on how to measure and define light sensitivity, you more have to rely on experience (yours or others').

 

And...is mpeg4 sufficient or stick with h264?

THAT is one of the biggest ongoing debates in the industry. Each has advantages and disadvantages. MPEG-4 and MJPEG tend to give better overall quality, especially at lower framerates, while H.264 creates less network traffic and uses less storage. The type of scene and amount of motion can affect both factors as well, and affect it differently depending on which codec is used.

[Zohan 1]

Guys, GREAT,GREAT info...thank you...you've definitely just educated me on the items i was unclear about....

1. So, as far as the networking...am i right to understand i can theoretically have many cams input to a switch and then 1 cat6 from switch to nvr is all it takes?

2. But on the rear panel of nvr, there has to be a finite # of inputs...what if i have more cams than that?

3. How do i really know, before setting up a system if my network is ok, for lets just say 10 cams for example..?

4. How is a separate network implemented, just by assigning different subnet, etc or do i need more hardware?

5. for remote viewing to nvr is it set up like a dvr with port forwarding and such, and do they support ddns service like dyn?

6. I need hdmi out for monitoring, do most nvr's have this or is it not a common feature?

 

Guys again, great help, thanks

 

oh, what do you think of avermedia cams and avtech cams... i see they each have 1 or 2 ip 1.3 mp d/n bullet cams....

[Seedigital 0]

1. Yes that is right,

2. Uh no not really its a network plug, the cameras become part of the network there is not card, all the video feeds come through the network connection.

3. For 10 cams you want a 1000mbps connection (pretty standard) I'd check all the components in your network to see if they are capable running at that speed.

4. A seperate network.... well a separate IP range? change your ip's and open up the subnet to accommodate, Look online its standard network stuff.

or Segregated network, you use different equipment, just run it all through the same patch panel, not all that hard just keep tabs as to whats for the cams and whats their internal network.

5. yes depends what service your running as your NVR software but yeah ddns that mother,

6. I'd build the NVR personally it would be cheaper and better than anything off the shelf. stick graphics card in it with DVI or HDMI out.

[Zohan 1]

1. Yes that is right,

2. Uh no not really its a network plug, the cameras become part of the network there is not card, all the video feeds come through the network connection.

3. For 10 cams you want a 1000mbps connection (pretty standard) I'd check all the components in your network to see if they are capable running at that speed.

4. A seperate network.... well a separate IP range? change your ip's and open up the subnet to accommodate, Look online its standard network stuff.

or Segregated network, you use different equipment, just run it all through the same patch panel, not all that hard just keep tabs as to whats for the cams and whats their internal network.

5. yes depends what service your running as your NVR software but yeah ddns that mother,

6. I'd build the NVR personally it would be cheaper and better than anything off the shelf. stick graphics card in it with DVI or HDMI out.

 

Awesome, thanks...

So for # 2, im a bonehead, the answer was actually in # 1

 

For # 3, mega bits or mega bytes? Basically do i need a 10/100 network, or a gigabit network (10/100/1000)?

[Soundy 1]

To expand a bit...

 

1. Cat6 is not needed - Cat5e is designed for gigabit as well.

 

3. Almost all cameras currently available have only 10/100 ports, so your entire network doesn't have to be gigabit. We commonly use a switch that has eight 10/100 PoE ports, and two gigabit ports - the cameras connect to the PoE ports, and the DVR and NAS connect to the gigabit port.

[Seedigital 0]

In the nicest way possible though, I think you haven't quite grasped what IP cams do in term of how they get the signal back to the NVR.

They turn video into IP traffic, data, like an email or video online its all ones and zeros that the systems converts back into visible data.

 

Once its in that format its treated like data, it doesn't need baluns, or seperate connectors that plug into a card anymore.

It is now more awesome, And can head straight into the NVR via the network cable which the software now handles its decoding and separation into a video file.

 

So you got to think a little differently, Software essentially becomes the heart of your beast and instead of buying cards with physical ports you generally buy licensed software capable of decoding x amount of channels.

 

There is a whole lot more you can do with IP video signals because you can treat it like data, Yeah Higher resolutions are a large part of that but there is so much more.

 

Hope this helps

 

Also Soundy is spot on,

3. Almost all cameras currently available have only 10/100 ports, so your entire network doesn't have to be gigabit. We commonly use a switch that has eight 10/100 PoE ports, and two gigabit ports - the cameras connect to the PoE ports, and the DVR and NAS connect to the gigabit port.

 

Thats a friggin brilliant way to do it

[Zohan 1]

Thanks again

[Soundy 1]

Also Soundy is spot on,

3. Almost all cameras currently available have only 10/100 ports' date=' so your entire network doesn't have to be gigabit. We commonly use a switch that has eight 10/100 PoE ports, and two gigabit ports - the cameras connect to the PoE ports, and the DVR and NAS connect to the gigabit port.[/quote']

 

Thats a friggin brilliant way to do it

Thanks It was mainly done as a cost-effective measure, as all-GbE switches are still a bit spendy... or were when we started implementing this setup about four years ago; they're a lot cheaper now.

 

I've posted this plenty of times... this is a basic layout of the network we use, tied into the customer's network so they have VPN access, and so the DVR and NAS have internet access to send alert emails:

 

[rory 0]

Horsehockey. Once the system is set up, there's NO reason it should need any special ongoing maintenance, beyond what you'd give a standard DVR.

 

Horsehockey.

[Zohan 1]

Horsehockey. Once the system is set up, there's NO reason it should need any special ongoing maintenance, beyond what you'd give a standard DVR.

 

Horsehockey.

 

LOL

[Zohan 1]

Any thoughts on this?

http://www.cctvdiscover.com/network-cameras-megapixel-series-c1_2/channel-megapixel-linux-nvr-p6.html

 

i'm assuming with a unit like that no external switch is needed, it's built into that nvr?

[Soundy 1]

Any thoughts on this?

http://www.cctvdiscover.com/network-cameras-megapixel-series-c1_2/channel-megapixel-linux-nvr-p6.html

 

i'm assuming with a unit like that no external switch is needed, it's built into that nvr?

Looks like it's basically a rackmount PC with internal 16-port PoE switch, yes.

 

According to the specs, though, the most it records at is 1280x720 (which technically, isn't megapixel)... and it doesn't list what cameras it supports: since IP cameras use a variety of codecs (MPEG-4, MJPEG, H.264, JPEG2000) and most manufacturers use different interface URLs, you have to make sure that the cameras you choose are supported by the NVR you use... or that the NVR you choose is compatible with the cameras you're using.

 

I'd steer clear of this one...

 

Edit: then again, since it IS a PC and is just running Linux, there should be nothing stopping you from removing whatever NVR software they put on it, and installing your own... or wiping the drive and building something Windows-based, or even Hackintosh-based, if you lean that way Exacq is an NVR software that will run on Windows, Linux, AND OSX.

[Zohan 1]

yes thanks....steering clear of that, i was more interested in the way it worked in general...thx

[Zohan 1]

Last question....

what is your opinion on this qvis hybrid model

http://www.qvissecurity.com/files/c138c333-3c7d-4db9-86c5-9fb900c1204b/CYBORG%20HYBRID%20USA%20rack2.pdf

[Soundy 1]

Never used one, but it looks interesting... but it too, is limited to 2MP per camera... and again, you'll want to find a camera compatibility list.

[Zohan 1]

Good point about compatibility list....if I do mp I don't think I'll go above 2mp.....

Thx

[Soundy 1]

You think that now... but why limit yourself? (Actually, looking through that PDF some more, it seems to indicate that it ONLY works with QVIS's own Cortex IP cameras).

 

This is the sort of thing you should be looking for: http://www.3xlogic.com/files/110008%20TT%206.0%20Supported%20IP%20Cameras.pdf

 

If an NVR doesn't have a compatibility list, run away, or you're just looking for headaches down the road.

[Zohan 1]

Good advice....thanks

[rory 0]

If you got a Dahua DVR or IP cameras (eg. Qvis, except that one is not Dahua), you use either the PSS software to monitor and record those offsite (eg. Hybrid but only their brand), or these next 2 companies also have inexpensive/trial/free NVR software that works with Dahua DVRs and IPCs and other brands.

 

Digivision - supports Dahua, Ikvision, DG Series, Sony, ACTi, Huviron, Mobotix M12, Arecont, Camtron, Axis, Vivotek, Sanyo, ONVIF

 

Linovision - supports Dahua, Axis, Vivotek, Hikvision, Stretch, Launch, Lemax, Hanbangaoke, Linovision

[Zohan 1]

If you got a Dahua DVR or IP cameras (eg. Qvis, except that one is not Dahua), you use either the PSS software to monitor and record those offsite (eg. Hybrid but only their brand),

 

 

huh?