rory 0 Posted January 16, 2012 True when baluns were $50/pair. We're using GEM mini-baluns now that run about $5/pr. and from my basic bench testing, work just as well as the $30/ea. Muxlab units I tested as well.. thats you boss man, everyone else has to pay regular price. Im sure your company must mark the product up as well? http://www.123securityproducts.com/500009.html Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tomcctv 190 Posted January 16, 2012 just need to shop around this is under $2 under $15. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted January 16, 2012 just need to shop around this is under $2 under $15. Yeah okay then .. I can get a camera for $5 also, and a DVR for $6 from Amazon. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tomcctv 190 Posted January 16, 2012 Yeah okay then ..I can get a camera for $5 also, and a DVR for $6 from Amazon. and some cat5 and a $2 baluns and your sorted out Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted January 16, 2012 Yeah okay then ..I can get a camera for $5 also, and a DVR for $6 from Amazon. and some cat5 and a $2 baluns and your sorted out Kool then Im good to go Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Soundy 1 Posted January 16, 2012 True when baluns were $50/pair. We're using GEM mini-baluns now that run about $5/pr. and from my basic bench testing, work just as well as the $30/ea. Muxlab units I tested as well.. thats you boss man, everyone else has to pay regular price. Im sure your company must mark the product up as well? http://www.123securityproducts.com/500009.html You know, I don't do the accounting, but I'm pretty sure they're just lumped in under "shop supplies" these days... they're a commodity item now, not a specialty item. Even if baluns are marked up to the customer, so is cable... so either way you look at it, Cat5+baluns is now cheaper than coax+power... and using station-Z wire for power along with the coax is WAY cheaper than Siamese cable. At least, in most of the developed world it is... we're well aware that where you are, pricing for everything from potato chips to sunshine has pricing way out of whack with the rest of the globe - you're never shy about reminding us of that fact. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted January 16, 2012 True when baluns were $50/pair. We're using GEM mini-baluns now that run about $5/pr. and from my basic bench testing, work just as well as the $30/ea. Muxlab units I tested as well.. thats you boss man, everyone else has to pay regular price. Im sure your company must mark the product up as well? http://www.123securityproducts.com/500009.html You know, I don't do the accounting, but I'm pretty sure they're just lumped in under "shop supplies" these days... they're a commodity item now, not a specialty item. Even if baluns are marked up to the customer, so is cable... so either way you look at it, Cat5+baluns is now cheaper than coax+power... and using station-Z wire for power along with the coax is WAY cheaper than Siamese cable. At least, in most of the developed world it is... we're well aware that where you are, pricing for everything from potato chips to sunshine has pricing way out of whack with the rest of the globe - you're never shy about reminding us of that fact. LOL Canada is hardly developed, its still the USA's little sidekick. So, example 4 cameras... 400' Cat5 $60, 8x Baluns $200 = $260 400' RG59 Siamese $140, 8x BNC connectors $8 = $146 8 cameras? 800' Cat5 $120, 16x Baluns $400 = $520 800' RG59 Siamese $272, 16x BNC connectors $16 = $288 16 cameras? 1600' Cat5 $240, 32x Baluns $800 = $1040 1600' RG59 Siamese $544, 32x BNC connectors $32 = $576 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted January 16, 2012 At least, in most of the developed world it is... we're well aware that where you are, pricing for everything from potato chips to sunshine has pricing way out of whack with the rest of the globe - you're never shy about reminding us of that fact. I guess then I need to remind you I post pricing in AMERICAN RETAIL pricing, so wherever I live has nothing to do with it, I could be in Canada tomorrow, will still be the same price. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted January 16, 2012 You know, I don't do the accounting. LOL then there is really no reason for me to be discussing anything with you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jeromephone 6 Posted January 16, 2012 Most cat 5 cat 6 installed in premis wiring is solid not stranded. Patch cords should be stranded. I think if you are planning on future proofing you should use cat 6 rated cables and try to keep your runs under 300 feet even if using baluns that way you can just switch things out. We have installed basically no cat 5 in industrial commerical applications in the last couple of years. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TiggyHAR 0 Posted January 17, 2012 good read from this thread, except for the accounting war which seems to shadow every thread about UTP & Coax. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PaulsonLaw 0 Posted January 17, 2012 I picked these, 10 pair, up for 30 on Amazon, 1 bnc was kinda loose, on power had plasit from the mold stuck in the terminals... But outside of that, all very nice & worked great Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted January 17, 2012 I picked these, 10 pair, up for 30 on Amazon, 1 bnc was kinda loose, on power had plasit from the mold stuck in the terminals...But outside of that, all very nice & worked great They dont really look like BNC baluns. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted January 17, 2012 Examples of BNC Baluns: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PaulsonLaw 0 Posted January 17, 2012 lol, indeed they are, have 8 pair installed... http://www.amazon.com/Pairs-Passive-Video-Power-Transceiver/dp/B005PJ5WJK Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted January 17, 2012 lol,indeed they are, have 8 pair installed... http://www.amazon.com/Pairs-Passive-Video-Power-Transceiver/dp/B005PJ5WJK Yeah but thats not really a balun, thats just an adapter, you can splice it with tape and get the same effect. Probably limited to very short distances. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Soundy 1 Posted January 17, 2012 lol,indeed they are, have 8 pair installed... http://www.amazon.com/Pairs-Passive-Video-Power-Transceiver/dp/B005PJ5WJK Those look like the same things we covered in another thread, that stated in huge letters on the listing that they WEREN'T actually baluns... So, example 4 cameras... 400' Cat5 $60, 8x Baluns $200 = $260 400' RG59 Siamese $140, 8x BNC connectors $8 = $146 Canadian retail pricing: 1000' Cat5e: $85, or $0.085/ft. 400' = $34. 8x baluns @$10/pair (sure, I'll take 100% markup) = $40. Total: $74 500' RG59+18/2 Siamese: $158, or $0.316/ft. 400' = $126. US pricing at Home Depot is pretty much the same: $156 for 500' Siamese, $83 for 1000' Cat5e. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted January 17, 2012 lol,indeed they are, have 8 pair installed... http://www.amazon.com/Pairs-Passive-Video-Power-Transceiver/dp/B005PJ5WJK Those look like the same things we covered in another thread, that stated in huge letters on the listing that they WEREN'T actually baluns... So, example 4 cameras... 400' Cat5 $60, 8x Baluns $200 = $260 400' RG59 Siamese $140, 8x BNC connectors $8 = $146 Canadian retail pricing: 1000' Cat5e: $85, or $0.085/ft. 400' = $34. 8x baluns @$10/pair (sure, I'll take 100% markup) = $40. Total: $74 500' RG59+18/2 Siamese: $158, or $0.316/ft. 400' = $126. US pricing at Home Depot is pretty much the same: $156 for 500' Siamese, $83 for 1000' Cat5e. Im not discussing cost with you, you already said you dont deal with that. And to pay your salary your boss obviously marks up those items. It costs money drive down to the store and pick them up. Regardless, lets base it on your Home Depot wire pricing, which BTW is way overpriced on the RG59 and it doesnt even say it is siamese but anyway if thats where you shop then whatever ... So, example 4 cameras... 400' Cat5 $34, 8x Baluns $200 = $234 400' RG59 Siamese $124, 8x BNC connectors $8 = $132 8 cameras? 800' Cat5 $68, 16x Baluns $400 = $468 800' RG59 Siamese $248, 16x BNC connectors $16 = $264 16 cameras? 1600' Cat5 $133, 32x Baluns $800 = $933 1600' RG59 Siamese $499, 32x BNC connectors $32 = $531 ------------- Sorry but Cat5 with baluns are still DOUBLE the price. I mean why cant you accept that simple fact???????????????????? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dirk_D 0 Posted January 17, 2012 lol,indeed they are, have 8 pair installed... http://www.amazon.com/Pairs-Passive-Video-Power-Transceiver/dp/B005PJ5WJK Those look like the same things we covered in another thread, that stated in huge letters on the listing that they WEREN'T actually baluns... So, example 4 cameras... 400' Cat5 $60, 8x Baluns $200 = $260 400' RG59 Siamese $140, 8x BNC connectors $8 = $146 Canadian retail pricing: 1000' Cat5e: $85, or $0.085/ft. 400' = $34. 8x baluns @$10/pair (sure, I'll take 100% markup) = $40. Total: $74 500' RG59+18/2 Siamese: $158, or $0.316/ft. 400' = $126. US pricing at Home Depot is pretty much the same: $156 for 500' Siamese, $83 for 1000' Cat5e. Im not discussing cost with you, you already said you dont deal with that. And to pay your salary your boss obviously marks up those items. It costs money drive down to the store and pick them up. Regardless, lets base it on your Home Depot wire pricing, which BTW is way overpriced on the RG59 and it doesnt even say it is siamese but anyway if thats where you shop then whatever ... So, example 4 cameras... 400' Cat5 $34, 8x Baluns $200 = $234 400' RG59 Siamese $124, 8x BNC connectors $8 = $132 8 cameras? 800' Cat5 $68, 16x Baluns $400 = $468 800' RG59 Siamese $248, 16x BNC connectors $16 = $264 16 cameras? 1600' Cat5 $133, 32x Baluns $800 = $933 1600' RG59 Siamese $499, 32x BNC connectors $32 = $531 ------------- Sorry but Cat5 with baluns are still DOUBLE the price. I mean why cant you accept that simple fact???????????????????? Hi Rory, I was about to side with Soundy when I decided maybe I should do some math - this is something I've been looking into, & I pay the bills around here. @ Home Depot, 1000' cat5e is $184 My CCTV Vendor has Siamese cable @ $79/1000' So including cable, connectors, etc, it may very well be double to use cat5e.... not exactly cost effective as I usually just absorb most supplies, or would charge the same price (max allowed by market - i.e. my comfort margin). The Baluns though are becoming quite cheap, and my bncs are raising, although I pay ~1/4 of what they charge @ ADI. Not really too comfortable discussing costs on the public part of the forum so this post may self destruct. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted January 17, 2012 Now lets use some more realistic US pricing. http://www.amazon.com/Genica-1000-Ft-CAT5e-Crimper-Tester/dp/B000YYIRRU http://www.amazon.com/500-Rg59-Siamese-Cable-Cctv/dp/B002EQ3CQW So, example 4 cameras... Ofcourse any installer reselling these products will be marking them up much higher than this, otherwise they wont be in business for long. 400' Cat5 @ 0.07 ea. $28, 8x Baluns @ 18 ea. $144 = $172 400' RG59 Siamese @ 0.15 ea. $60, 8x BNC connectors @ .75 ea $6 = $66 8 cameras? 800' Cat5 @ 0.07 ea. $56, 16x Baluns @ $18 ea. $288 = $344 800' RG59 Siamese @ 0.15 ea. $120, 16x BNC connectors @ .75 ea. $12 = $132 16 cameras? 1600' Cat5 @ 0.07 ea. $112, 32x Baluns @ $18 ea. $576 = $688 1600' RG59 Siamese @ 0.15 ea. $240, 32x BNC connectors @ .75 ea. $24 = $264 Not to mention, that RG59 Siamese includes 18awg cable. You mentioned you bench tested the $10 baluns, Well when you have actually used them on installs and post some video to back them up with, then perhaps we can talk. Meanwhile I dont tell someone to buy something based on hearsay. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dirk_D 0 Posted January 17, 2012 Hold on Ladies: (just kidding guys, I like the both of youse ) To be fair, my CCTV vendor (I'll PM you the info if you request it) has 1000' cat5e @ $39.00 per 1000', & cat6 @ $61.00 per 1000' So maybe cat5e *IS* more cost effective after all. One of my local competitors has been using the baluns/cat5e for years. As you know, knicked solid conductors break. This has been an issue, although infrequent. Trusting my camera vendor, I bought their baluns but I haven't tried them.....trying to hop off the fence. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Soundy 1 Posted January 17, 2012 US pricing at Home Depot is pretty much the same: $156 for 500' Siamese, $83 for 1000' Cat5e. Im not discussing cost with you, You're the one who started the comparisons. you already said you dont deal with that. I can look up retail prices just as easily as the next guy - YOU'RE the one who brought up "retail American pricing", so... there it is. Regardless, lets base it on your Home Depot wire pricing, which BTW is way overpriced on the RG59 and it doesnt even say it is siamese but anyway if thats where you shop then whatever ... Click the link, look at the picture: that IS RG59 Siamese. And if it isn't Siamese, well, that's pretty f'n expensive for JUST RG-59... don't even want to think about what the Siamese would cost. Sorry but Cat5 with baluns are still DOUBLE the price.I mean why cant you accept that simple fact???????????????????? Double FOR YOU. Not for anyone else in the real world. Hi Rory, I was about to side with Soundy when I decided maybe I should do some math - this is something I've been looking into, & I pay the bills around here. @ Home Depot, 1000' cat5e is $184 My CCTV Vendor has Siamese cable @ $79/1000' Is this the Cat5e you're looking at? This stuff is plenum-rated (under the Specifications page: "May be used in the place of CMP, CMR, CMG, CM and CMX cables; 1,000 ft. category 5e is ideal for running in plenums"), which always costs more than riser-rated cable, like the $83 box listed above. You're also comparing retail on the Cat5, to what I assume is a wholesale price for the Siamese? Pretty sure if you check your wholesale supplier, you'll find CMR Cat5e substantially cheaper than $83/1000'. Not really too comfortable discussing costs on the public part of the forum so this post may self destruct. Nothing wrong with listing retail pricing - anyone can look it up with a simple google search. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted January 17, 2012 Not really too comfortable discussing costs on the public part of the forum so this post may self destruct. the moderator is the one that went to dealer pricing, so we are just piggybacking off his post. My original price on wire was obviously here in my country and all other pricing was US retail (dealer/member pricing is actually cheaper). I dont ship in wire from the US as it costs too much unless one is buying tons of it, however the pricing varies even here, from store to store. I never bought cat5 so was only taking a guess on the local price. Baluns are not perfect to begin with so Im not about to tell someone go buy a $10 balun unless someone can back it up with some video showing they actually provide the same quality as RG59 or decent baluns. We have been able to buy $5 cameras for some time now, $20 IR cameras that claim 60' IR, heck I just got a camera that claims 100' IR but infact only has a 30' IR beam. I even bought a DVR from Amazon for $6.95 ... its not that there are not low priced products out there, but the quality and end result matter, availability matters, can you buy it all the time, can you buy it at all, and also the price one resells it for can make a huge difference. For example, Im sure you can buy a DVR for $100, but do you sell it to your customers for $100? And you can get the same for $40 from China, but do you? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted January 17, 2012 Hold on Ladies: (just kidding guys, I like the both of youse ) To be fair, my CCTV vendor (I'll PM you the info if you request it) has 1000' cat5e @ $39.00 per 1000', & cat6 @ $61.00 per 1000' So maybe cat5e *IS* more cost effective after all. One of my local competitors has been using the baluns/cat5e for years. As you know, knicked solid conductors break. This has been an issue, although infrequent. Trusting my camera vendor, I bought their baluns but I haven't tried them.....trying to hop off the fence. lets loose the cat5 wire all together? 8x Baluns @ 18 ea. $144 = $144 400' RG59 Siamese @ 0.15 ea. $60, 8x BNC connectors @ .75 ea $6 = $66 8 cameras? 16x Baluns @ $18 ea. $288 = $288 800' RG59 Siamese @ 0.15 ea. $120, 16x BNC connectors @ .75 ea. $12 = $132 16 cameras? 32x Baluns @ $18 ea. $576 = $576 1600' RG59 Siamese @ 0.15 ea. $240, 32x BNC connectors @ .75 ea. $24 = $264 and when you start using IR cameras and needing to buy 18awg .. oh snap price goes up on that cat5. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Soundy 1 Posted January 17, 2012 Now lets use some more realistic US pricing. Irrelevant as long as you're comparing Cadillac baluns with Kia BNCs. Not to mention, that RG59 Siamese includes 18awg cable. So? 18/2 is unnecessary 95% of the time with Cat5/baluns. You mentioned you bench tested the $10 baluns,Well when you have actually used them on installs and post some video to back them up with, then perhaps we can talk. Meanwhile I dont tell someone to buy something based on hearsay. How is testing I performed myself, "hearsay"? To be fair, my CCTV vendor (I'll PM you the info if you request it) has 1000' cat5e @ $39.00 per 1000', & cat6 @ $61.00 per 1000' So maybe cat5e *IS* more cost effective after all. Just FYI... Cat5e isn't required either. You can use Cat3 if you want... or station-Z... or speaker wire. Any single pair of wire will work with video baluns. Cat5e is popular mainly because it allows easy transition to network cameras in the future... and if you deal with both, it lets you reduce the number of types and boxes of cable you have to stock and haul around. I find Cat5e also useful with VGA baluns, HDMI extenders, KVM extenders, four-wire intercom systems (we install a lot of 3M D2470 systems - Cat5 is good for both callbox runs, and for base/selector runs). Costs for single camera runs are one thing... now calculate the cost difference to run four cameras over a distance using Cat5e vs. coax: it will take four RG59 runs... or one Cat5e. the moderator is the one that went to dealer pricing, so we are just piggybacking off his post. The *same baluns* can be found for $3/pr. on fleaBay. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
