MERGED: cameras or setup tips for night clubs

[360fish 0]

Thank you Moderators for the merge

Any recommendations on camera selection or setup tips for night clubs? I have a 20,000 sq foot club with 10-30' ceilings, very dark and very uneven lighting. Client wants to see bill denominations at points of sale, and be able to clearly identify people's faces in pretty much any corner of the club, on the main floor, in a semi-private VIP booth, etc.

 

Also implementing facial tagging and recognition at the entrance (where lighting is controlled and I can predict where people will be) and possibly other locations TBD.

 

I haven't found much info about configuring IR banks to provide supplemental IR light, and I'm unsure how the club lighting (disco balls, multicolored spots, dramatic under-bar warm lights (2600k-ish), etc.) will interact with the IR or what I can do about it if it does create impossibly wide dynamic ranges. Maybe a physical IR Pass filter ...

 

I am working with a March 15 deadline so any advice is doubly appreciated. I love to RTFM so links to documentation or resources specific to these kind of challenges are awesome.

 

Using 3VR (http://www.3vr.com) and Envysion (http://www.envysion.com) DVRs. Using 3VR for facial recognition and other advanced surveillance tasks and Envysion for POS integrated needs (using Aloha POS).

Edited February 8, 2012 by Guest

[thewireguys 3]

Have you installed many 3VR setups? How well does the analytics work?

 

We are starting a 30,000 sq foot club and will be using a mix of 720P 1080P and 5MP cameras with IR.

[360fish 0]

I have an order in for Axis p1346 & p3367, vivotek fd8162 and fd8362 and a sony snc ch220. I found a vendor that allows me to RMA with no restock fee so I can try them out and send back what doesn't work well.

 

Any other recommendations? I've seen in the low light posts people recommending finding dedicated B&W cameras, which makes sense, but they're hard to find nowadays...

Edited February 8, 2012 by Guest

[360fish 0]

I have only put the 3VR in the lab, it's going into production in the next 10 days. So far in the lab environment the analytics setup has been easy to get into and hard to get right. That is to say, getting facial recognition or direction of motion events to work is not so hard, and the overall UI, both for configuration and for end-users, is pretty great. But getting real world business needs addressed is going to require a lot of tweaking, trial and error, and close work with the management. I suppose that's not too different from any implementation scenario, but it's ... daunting.

 

I don't have people counting or crowd flow analysis licensed yet but looking forward to it.

 

I have gotten 3VR together with Aloha (POS software) and they're working out aloha integration using the Aloha Spy SDK (free with a signed NDA and pretty damn useful). THAT will be a game changer if they do it right and I can then integrate customer loyalty programs with 3VR video data. Until then Envysion has great Aloha integration. Both have excellent customer support, I'm very happy with both companies.

 

Except neither has a mobile solution. Envysion's is in beta, 3VRs is promised in 2012.

[Soundy 1]

I'd be interested to know how facial recognition works on a broad scale - accuracy is usually reliant on a fairly steady, straight-on shot (this ain't CSI), which would mean cameras with tight shots on entry/exit points.

 

I've seen a few of the clubs around here that are on BarWatch that have low-mounted cameras on either side of the ticket/coat-check window to get facial images from multiple angles, although I don't know if they're actually doing any computer-based recognition. The system has patrons present their driver's license or ID to be scanned into the database, and pictures added to it from the cameras; other clubs on the system can then share the database, and troublesome customers can be "flagged" so all participants will know to be aware.

[360fish 0]

@soundy I hadn't thought of using two cameras for the facial recognition I am not sure how to configure that in 3VR but so far their tech support has been great so I'll hit them up.

 

I'm looking into barwatch now. since my client has 11 clubs and bars in the area I bet they'd love a private version of that.

 

I think I should document this process for the forum, already I'm getting a lot of PMs about the 3VR boxes. I'll set up a separate thread when I have a minute.

 

I welcome any more comments I am really interested in camera selection, location, and supplemental lighting tips.

 

- thanks all -

[tomcctv 190]

hi. is the 3VR just a face finder ?? looking at there video demo it not far from many systems now that use facefinder.

 

 

as far as cameras we use CNB no ir at all in our night clubs. (and not with the monalisa chip)

[Soundy 1]

Just google "BarWatch" - first hit should be a Wikipedia article on it, followed by a number of links from various police departments on how they like it

 

As the Wiki article notes, "BarWatch is sometimes mistakenly used to refer to the ID scanning software used by the members of the BarWatch Association. However, the ID scanning software is actually offered by separate private companies such as Servall Data Systems." - who knows, it might be something 3VR does already, or may be interested in implementing along with you.

[Soundy 1]

Any other recommendations? I've seen in the low light posts people recommending finding dedicated B&W cameras, which makes sense, but they're hard to find nowadays...

You could always just use good TDN cameras and lock them in B&W (night) mode. I like the CNB Monalisa cameras for low-light performance, myself - we use the VCM-24VFs extensively in a chain of upscale restaurant/lounge sites that tend to really dim the lights at night (not the same as a nightclub, granted).

[chaz 0]

The facial recognition from 3VR works well if you set up the cameras per 3Vr spec's for height and distance. a fleeting glance at the camera is sometimes all you need to capture the face. Directional motion is enabled on a per camera basis if i'm not mistaken.

 

I've put about 40 3VR's in banks (good lighting) don't know how they will work in a night club though. transaction events work well with 3Vr and if they see a market for it i'm sure they will write an analytic for your specific POS.

 

good luck with your project.

[Soundy 1]

The biggest trick in a nightclub would be motion blur from too-slow shutters. I would also think that cameras with built-in IR might cause problems with the recognition because of the "glowing eyes" effect. I wonder if it might work to deploy a few wide-angle IR illuminators throughout the room, either over darker areas or in particular trouble spots, to provide a broader IR illumination for the cameras that wouldn't affect the ambiance of the club lighting? Maybe place them near other light fixtures so they'd "hide" behind the brighter visible light?

[tomcctv 190]

we have found that IR is not good in a night club area. but what you have to think about is the type of lighting you find in night clubs UV which can and does play a very good part in providing lighting for a good TDN camera.

 

 

this image if seen by the eye is a dark area but UV lighting gives cameras a good image.

 

 

 

rooms in the same club (this club is over 4 floors) has room from near pich black to 1 that is called the white room.

 

 

we also have pubwatch in most parts of the uk and use the aver face finder

[phillip4lee 0]

Though my experience using IR in a club environment has mostly been a long string of unsatisfactory clarity though I will say that it worked in our favor when the bar managers ipad was stolen. The second that the thief turned it on it was very obvious where the ipad was and where it was going