Fishing for camera suggestions..

[camera-newbie 0]

Hi all.. I'm new here and trying to get up to speed on all of the camera's available out there.. In my case I'm looking for two cameras that can be installed outside our house to monitor things in both our front and backyards as we've got issues with a neighbor who likes to fiddle in our yard (picking fruit in the middle of the night, shutting off our A/C disconnects on our solar panel inverters, etc). Unfortunately unless we have proof nobody can do anything. So, here is my wishlist of features I'd prefer to have (not in any particular order) :

 

• PoE powered
  
• Day/Night capable with little lighting - front yard has a street light, but rear yard has no lighting other than some ambient light coming from a medical plaza above us (~50ft), but which is about 1/4 mile away). Would like to be able to see faces well if at all possible
  
• Motion detection capable with include/ignore/masking features
  
• 1080P High-def preferred
  
• IR Cut filter (I think I need this)
  
• No extra cords to deal with (I gather that some PoE models have alternate outputs that must be hidden if using PoE)
  
• Bullet style preferred for one camera (backyard), dome style would be OK for front
  
• Software controlled (?) or ability to write to remote fileserver??
  
• IP
  
• Able to record video at night (low-lux) from 50+ feet (~20+ meters would be nice)

 

I don't think we need anything with a heater in our area since I live in the Los Angeles area so temps are not that cold (about the lowest is 40F). I've been eyeing Vivotek's (7162 IIRC) but hear bad things about their service/support. I'm leaning towards the larger companies (Panasonic, JVC, Sanyo,etc) as I'm thinking I'd have a better time with support should I need it. One particular camera that looks promising (but which I think is too high priced for me) is the JVC VN-H157WPU -- if the price were say $300-$400US less, that would be about right. I don't mind paying for a decent product but I've not seen many that can deal with the distance + low-light and still have a decent image..

 

I was perusing one of the forum threads here showing the images people get from various cameras/systems and saw some impressive images but I didn't see any/many night images where the light was absent (most had porch lights or parking lot lights on) which makes it hard to know how it would behave in my situation..

 

P.S. I just noticed (thanks to another thread) the IQ Sentinel series which looks promising.. I still need to check some of the specs for it..

 

Any suggestions?

[buellwinkle 0]

I use ACTI acm-1231 and tcm-1231 and both work very well at night up to about 30-40'. To get 50' you may have to increase the max shutter speed but I like to keep mine at 1/30th. You can have it FTP events to an FTP server, but you can also use their software which works very well and it's free. Even the iPhone/iPad app is free, lets you see multiple cameras. It's 1.3MP, so not 1080P, it's 1280x1024. To get 1080P you need 2MP and Vivotek, Messoa and Geovision make 2MP cameras, same price range, although they are what I perceive to be lesser brands.

[camera-newbie 0]

Thanks for the reply and suggestions/comments.. If I were to go with the ACTI acm-1231 or similar is it possible to wire up an IR light that could extend the usable distance that the camera could perceive and pick things up beyond the 30-40' you indicate? If there's such a light, is it easy to tell if it's turned on (any visible lights) -- don't need to alert the 'visitors'?

 

I agree with you on your comment about Vivotek from what I've been reading.. Someone I believe here on these forums needed to return one and it took them 3 months to get an RMA number.. Ugg.. That's the type of service I'd like to avoid!

 

One other item that looks promising (at least feature wise) is the Sanyo VCC-HD2300/HD2500 which is in the same price range as the above mentioned ACTI acm-1231 but sans any lens or outdoor enclosure which will add another ~$160us to the price. Any comments on this setup? It's not quite as low-lux as I'd like (.1lux BW) and I'm not sure what that translates into photo-wise as I don't believe this camera has any IR features..

 

Another camera that might work is the Toshiba IK-WB80A which is only a little more than the ACTI and appears to be able to support IR distances of 25m which ought to work but is not HD -- it's just a little higher res than the ACTI at 1600x1200 and the lens is a little wider at the low end (3mm vs 3.3mm for the ACTI). Anyone try one of these or it's dome cousin the IK-WR12A?

 

One more question if you don't mind.. Our backyard is facing due-west which is where the sun goes down in the late afternoons. When I setup a cheap webcam watching our backyard, the afternoons are virtually unusable because of the sun hitting the lens.. IF I were to use a dome camera mounted up high under my eave pointing west, is a camera like that which has no lens hood to speak of, going to have the same sort of problem late in the afternoon? Is this a place where a bullet camera with a mini-shade might behave better?

 

On the software front, are most of the software packages that might come free with some of these cameras pretty equivalent in terms of features and whatnot? I'm also assuming most only run on Windows and not Mac. Most of our machines at home are Mac's but I do have a single windows server used as a Tivo like device and which could perhaps do double-duty as a security camera server as well if it's not too taxing CPU wise. Thanks!!

[bike_rider 0]

buellwinkle - can you comment on the differences between Acti's ACM and TCM lines?

 

camera-newbie - I'm pretty sure Sanyo is getting out of the CCTV business.

[thewireguys 3]

buellwinkle - can you comment on the differences between Acti's ACM and TCM lines?

 

camera-newbie - I'm pretty sure Sanyo is getting out of the CCTV business.

 

Sanyo was bought out by Panasonic

[camera-newbie 0]

buellwinkle - can you comment on the differences between Acti's ACM and TCM lines?

 

camera-newbie - I'm pretty sure Sanyo is getting out of the CCTV business.

 

Sanyo was bought out by Panasonic

 

ok.. With that out of the way, how about a nice Panasonic WV-NP502 -- in checking the specs on the Panasonic site, it lists the lens as optional..

 

Anyone try one of these? Unfortunately it does not have IR but lists the low-light performance as 0.08 in BW... Oh well.. I guess I'm not going to find my perfect camera..

 

Edit : Anyone ever try a LevelOne FCS-5051? It looks half decent but doesn't say anything about supporting motion detection among other things.. Hmm..

[camera-newbie 0]

I think I found one that might work both feature wise and might be OK budget wise -- the Arecont AV3125IR. It looks like it'll do what I want.. Anyone try one of these? I'm hoping they've also got a dome equiv but I've not yet checked..

[SDM Group 0]

Just ordered 7 of these, haven't tried them yet though http://www.spytown.com/toshiba-ik-wr12a.html

[thewireguys 3]

Just ordered 7 of these, haven't tried them yet though http://www.spytown.com/toshiba-ik-wr12a.html

 

 

FYI They are re-branded Vivotek cameras

 

http://www.vivotek.com/products/model.php?network_camera=fd8361l

[SDM Group 0]

Just ordered 7 of these, haven't tried them yet though http://www.spytown.com/toshiba-ik-wr12a.html

 

 

FYI They are re-branded Vivotek cameras

 

http://www.vivotek.com/products/model.php?network_camera=fd8361l

 

Thanks, price looks great though, have you tried them?

[thewireguys 3]

Just ordered 7 of these, haven't tried them yet though http://www.spytown.com/toshiba-ik-wr12a.html

 

 

FYI They are re-branded Vivotek cameras

 

http://www.vivotek.com/products/model.php?network_camera=fd8361l

 

Thanks, price looks great though, have you tried them?

 

No I haven't tried Vivotek in a couple of years and I think that camera is EOL soon. I have seen some video from some of the newer models and they look nice for the money.

 

http://www.vivotek.com/products/network_cameras.php

[mike_va 0]

Note, be careful comparing lux specs, it looks like the vivotek is spec'g at 1/6s which is not that useful....

[camera-newbie 0]

Hmm.. Thx guys! After posting my question about the Arecont I noticed a few threads claiming bad QA problems with a high amount of their products.. Perhaps I should steer away from them?

 

As for the Vivotek/Toshiba, has anyone had recent issues with their products or support? I know occasionally companies clue into their problems and address internal issues -- not sure if that's the case with Vivotek or not. I like their IP8362.. which claims IR illumination to 20m which would work for me -- not sure how their images look in near dark scenarios.. The price is better than the Arecont's too..

[mike_va 0]

I use ACTI acm-1231 and tcm-1231 and both work very well at night up to about 30-40'. To get 50' you may have to increase the max shutter speed but I like to keep mine at 1/30th.

Is the night pic on your blog at 1/30s?

[MaxIcon 0]

I've got an Arecont AV5100M, an AV5105DN, 2 Vivotek IP8332s, and a Vivotek FD8134. These are all older gen, lower end cams than what you're looking at, but I can relate my experiences.

 

I haven't needed factory support for any of them beyond some setup help that I got from web searches (and they were all bought used, so there's no vendor support), so I can't speak to that.

 

The Arecont software is clumsy and limited, and is easily the least friendly of any of my IP cams, despite them being the highest end of the lot. Until I fixed the IP addresses, they were constantly changing over the course of a week or so. They come with a rather quirky setup utility that's critical to the initial setup (and finding them when the IP changes), and is completely different from the web interface.

 

I have a hard time getting a decent frame rate out of them (especially the AV5100M, even at half res), connecting from an older corporate grade GB POE switch, and they're a good bit more sensitive to both lighting and how many connections there are when it comes to frame rate. They have traditional CS mount lenses, and the focus is extremely finicky at full aperture. I was expecting better low-light performance with a 1/2" sensor, but the 5MP rating means the elements are small compared to lower MP cams.

 

The image quality is decent, but I'm still working on tweaking them in for settings and frame rate (likewise, limited time in the evenings to deal with this). All in all, I'm a bit disapointed in them, and had I paid full price for them, I'd be pretty unhappy. That may change as I figure out how to maximize their performance.

 

The Vivoteks, also bought used, have been far easier to set up and use, and have been much more reliable in their network connections. I have the IP8332s mounted outdoors on the included mounts (not high end, but decent), and they've been ticking along for several months with no issues. All the streams are available in multiple resolutions, you can resize them by either zooming or scaling, the web interface is quite good and the settings are very flexible, and they don't seem to care if there are 3 or 4 clients talking to them at once. They maintain my frame rates (10fps) with no problems, though this is much easier with a 1MP camera, of course.

 

The daytime images are clear and crisp, and I'm very happy with them for the 1MP rating. The image quality suffers at night, but the built-in IR is pretty good, and they're quite an improvement over the analog cams I was using. The FD8134 struggles more with the frame rate, and it's not as sturdy feeling as the outdoor cams, but everything else is similar to the IP8332s. They all have board-cam style lenses, with a much finer thread pitch than the Arecont lenses, so focus is much easier to tweak in.

 

In terms of user experience, software, and stability, the Vivoteks are far better than the Areconts, and are much better than the 2MP Messoa NCR870 I've been setting up as well. I had them up and running in no time, while the Areconts and Messoa have needed a lot more babysitting.

 

If I had the budget, I'd spring for some higher res Vivoteks based on this. I haven't tried the other cams people like a lot, like Acti and Mobotix, because they're out of my budget range, and the newer Areconts may be improved over the older models. YMMV, as always!

Edited February 27, 2012 by Guest

[camera-newbie 0]

Thanks for the note! Good to hear some good words on the Vivotek's.. I'm current eyeing the IP8362 (bullet) and FD8362 (dome) which are very similar but the dome version has the SmartFocus system so no need to monkey around with focusing. The IP version does need some fiddling around in that area.. On thing that concerns me on any of these is how well they'll do with late afternoon sun in my backyard and whether it will result in an unusable image -- perhaps not as bad as I'm expecting since the camera will be mounted up under the eaves and will be pointing down a bit.. Not sure if bullets behave better in this situation over an equally mounted dome -- I'd think the dome would suffer more since it has no sun shade to speak of.. Hence my interest in one of both -- bullet for back, dome for front.

[buellwinkle 0]

I use ACTI acm-1231 and tcm-1231 and both work very well at night up to about 30-40'. To get 50' you may have to increase the max shutter speed but I like to keep mine at 1/30th.

Is the night pic on your blog at 1/30s?

 

Yes, all my cameras are set to 1/30th max shutter speed.

 

The difference between the ACM-1231 and TCM-1231 is about $100. The TCM give you h.264 compression, more frames per second and WDR feature. I find the noise levels on the ACM are lower than the TCM. I don't need the faster frame rate or h.264, so not worth the extra money for me, but may be for you.

[MaxIcon 0]

Thanks for the note! Good to hear some good words on the Vivotek's.. I'm current eyeing the IP8362 (bullet) and FD8362 (dome) which are very similar but the dome version has the SmartFocus system so no need to monkey around with focusing. The IP version does need some fiddling around in that area.. On thing that concerns me on any of these is how well they'll do with late afternoon sun in my backyard and whether it will result in an unusable image -- perhaps not as bad as I'm expecting since the camera will be mounted up under the eaves and will be pointing down a bit.. Not sure if bullets behave better in this situation over an equally mounted dome -- I'd think the dome would suffer more since it has no sun shade to speak of.. Hence my interest in one of both -- bullet for back, dome for front.

 

Bright sun and heavy shade combinations are challenging to the older Vivoteks like mine (dunno if the newer models have WDR or similar); depending on what's centered on the screen, you either get washed-out highs or impenetrable darks. I've turned the contrast down on one and that's helped a lot, while the other only has this problem during a short period.

 

It seems these cameras come with fairly high contrast and saturation as a default because it makes a well-lit scene look really good - crisp and sharp, bright colors, and much more life than an analog cam. Subduing these qualities helps the balance a lot, but probably doesn't sell cameras as well.

 

I've got one in a similar situation - under an eave, looking into the backyard where the sun gets pretty bright at times. Let me see if I can grab a few screenshots this weekend.

[camera-newbie 0]

I've got one in a similar situation - under an eave, looking into the backyard where the sun gets pretty bright at times. Let me see if I can grab a few screenshots this weekend.

 

Cool! Thad' be great! I'm hoping if I can put it up at the peak of the roof and have it pointing down into the yard that angle may help to keep some of the sun out if I'm using a bullet -- worst come to worse, perhaps an extra sun-shield could be fabbed up to extend the factory cover by an inch or two depending on whether that impedes its view of the yard.

[MaxIcon 0]

OK, here are some screen grabs (half-size, with a link for the full size). This is the IP8332, which is 1MP, and it's running H.264, 10fps, "excellent" quality. I may change from H.264 to get the view a bit crisper, and I'm currently running contrast at -5 to resolve the mid-day shadows best.

 

Taking these grabs reminded me of why I like the Vivoteks so much. The web control is very fast and flexible, and I can change parameters and go back to screen views very quickly, compared to my other cams. They've been among the most reliable as far as connections go, too.

 

Brightness, Saturation, Sharpness are all set at 0, and contrast is adjusted in the pics below. My assistant is standing in the shadow of the tree, about 35 feet out, and you can see the shadows at the car show a lot more detail than the more distant shadows. The camera's up under the eaves, as you can see.

 

Contrast +3:

http://maxicon.com/cctv/vivotek/viv-ip8332_front_contrast_+3-2.jpg

 

Contrast 0:

http://maxicon.com/cctv/vivotek/viv-ip8332_front_contrast_0-2.jpg

 

Contrast -5:

http://maxicon.com/cctv/vivotek/viv-ip8332_front_contrast_-5-2.jpg

[buellwinkle 0]

Just posted a review of the Vivotek IP8362 on my blog. Frankly, the ACTi 1231 has much better night vision. So yes, you get about 50% more pixels with the Vivotek, but at night, there's not much detail.

 

What's a cool camera for night vision, and 1.2MP is the ACTi TCM-7811. It uses a CCD instead of CMOS for a more noise free experience. Currently that's their best camera for low light.

[camera-newbie 0]

Thanks for more food for thought.. I did get some sample demo images from the Vivotek FD8362 (dome equiv) and it's night performance without IR is not too bad -- but not particularly useful either -- very grainy. I haven't found any images using their optional AI-102 IR add-on lamp setup. Has anyone used any of the IQEye Alliance-MX domes (model #IQM32NE-B5)? The price is right and the features don't look too bad either. I'm also interested (but not quite as much) in their Sentinel Series bullet camera IQ832NE-V6 possibly although the specs are a tad different than the MX..

 

For dome cameras pointed in a sunny environment, has anyone ever built a sun-shade of sorts to tame the late afternoon sun? In our case the dome camera (if we go that route) would be at the peak of the roof -- about 20' off the ground and something projecting off the top perhaps about 10-12" would probably be enough to still view the yard but not worry about the sun messing things up..

 

Too many cameras to think about..

[camera-newbie 0]

One other thought -- can any of the other IQEye cameras not necessarily designed for outdoors be used there -- such as the 750 series? They don't apparently have any IR cut filters --.. Hmm.. Not sure if that rules them out.. They do claim to have some sort of low-light feature (light grabber II)..

 

Another possibility as suggested by another thread here : -- Basler BIP2-1920c-dn? Anyone use one of these specifically outdoors?

[camera-newbie 0]

By the way.. since I read about the Basler's (and some IQEye people leaving to jump to Basler), I'm very impressed with their products -- I've popped them a note to ask some questions and hoping I can get my wife on-board with a nice quality and VERY small camera.. If you haven't checked out their video on their products, it's pretty slick (look under their Gallery page then product movie).. I'm hoping the final price isn't going to kill me.. once enclosures, mounts and whatnot are added up..

[Soundy 1]

One other thought -- can any of the other IQEye cameras not necessarily designed for outdoors be used there -- such as the 750 series?

Sure they can, they just need to go in the appropriate environmental housing.

 

They don't apparently have any IR cut filters --.. Hmm.. Not sure if that rules them out..

The IQ7xx series DO have IR cut filters. They're true day/night cameras, which means they have movable IR cut filters - in front of the sensor in day (color) mode, moved aside when it goes to night (B&W) mode.

 

They do claim to have some sort of low-light feature (light grabber II)..

If memory serves, LightGrabber is mainly a slow-shutter system (like "Sens Up" on many other cams). It allows the sensor to collect more light, at the expense of more motion blur.