Looking for advice on IP cameras in Elevators

[IPG 0]

New member to these forums and hoping to get some insight from the people here about using IP cameras in elevators.

 

Traditionally, I've always used analog cameras in elevators as coax cabling is easier to deal with in such an environment. However I have a client who is requesting an IP only solution for their suite of systems (Access & CCTV).

 

The building is 21 stories, and has 14 elevators, each one of which requires a camera. The building backbone is fiber, with Cat 6 horizontal cabling making an IP solution preferable, but with that many floors I can't run copper as I'll exceed the 90m cable distance restriction for 802.3 (allowing for 10m patching).

 

The client wants a seamless integration of systems, so I know I also probably can't use a mix and match solution (for example, Mobotix for the elevators and Pelco for the rest), and it must also integrate to the (as yet unspecified) Access Control system.

 

How would people normally get around this ? All advice gratefully received.

[buellwinkle 0]

Man I'm jealous, 14 elevators for a 21 story building. I'll think about that when I go down in one of 3 elevators in our 21 story building when the dog is anxious to pee.

 

Is it possible to put a cheap 2.4 or 5.8Ghz wireless bridge on each camera and have a bridge on top with the antenna pointing down the shaft. Don't know, just throwing out ideas. Also, 900Mhz system with that proximity may work fine across the shafts, so one for each elevator, then a central bridge where your NVR setup is. Just don't know if the motors for the elevators will cause magnetic interferance with the wireless.

[thewireguys 3]

I would stay away from wireless in this situation. Why not use a analog camera and encoder?

[Soundy 1]

I would stay away from wireless in this situation. Why not use a analog camera and encoder?

This. Analog cam in the elevator, encoder at the end of the cable runs. One assumes the traveler cables all make their way eventually to the mechanical room and terminate in the same area, so that's where you'd place a 16-channel encoder. Plug that into the network at that point, and you're golden.

 

If they REALLY want *megapixel* in the elevators, there are a number of adapters that will do ethernet over coax upwards of 1000m, some of them including power as well. They can get spendy, but they'll solve your problem. Check out some of these:

 

http://www.altronix.com/p_php/specs.php?model_num=eBridge1CRT&sessUid=300&language=1&header=1

 

http://www.veracityglobal.com/products/ethernet-over-coax.aspx

 

http://www.divitex.com/analog-ip.php

 

http://gemelec.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=706&category_id=68&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=1

[IPG 0]

Cheers for the quick replies. I was thinking along the lines of analog -> IP but wasn't sure of the best setup to use. An encoder in the machine room makes sense, and I know there are network drops on the floor below making that a viable option. Will have a look at those links too.

 

As an aside (purely from a security standpoint) I tend to avoid using any form of wireless solutions whenever possible. Not because of hacking but because of jamming. I have a neat little wireless jammer that will shutdown any wireless network within 50m of it when turned on, making something like a wireless CCTV system totally inoperable.

 

Before anyone asks, I use it for bug detection when doing security surveys, but it's fun to mess around with at trade expo's too

[Soundy 1]

Analog and encoders will probably be your best bet, especially if you're already familiar with using analog cams in elevators. There are several options out there - Avigilon has a four-channel encoder; Axis makes models ranging from single-channel to 1U 16-channel units to rack-mountable blade frames for plug-in blade modules: http://www.axis.com/products/video/video_server/index.htm

 

As far as wireless, I think reliability is a far greater concern than security (be it hacking OR jamming). There was a discussion on this several months ago, and one of the more promising methods mentioned was a laser-based system... but ultimately, ALL elevator cars will already have cables going to them, and frankly, you don't even need coax - you can use pretty much any available pair of wires with passive baluns for an analog signal.

[SpyGuy10 0]

This laser transmitter/receiver system looks intriguing:

http://www.qccess.com/air100/what.html

 

It has a 100m range (up to 25 stories). There is also a 300m version. The only downside for your application is that it appears to be analog only. So that will limit your resolution and you'll have to add an encoder on the receiver in order to tie into your NVR system.

[thewireguys 3]

This laser transmitter/receiver system looks intriguing:

http://www.qccess.com/air100/what.html

 

It has a 100m range (up to 25 stories). There is also a 300m version. The only downside for your application is that it appears to be analog only. So that will limit your resolution and you'll have to add an encoder on the receiver in order to tie into your NVR system.

 

 

D1 max resolution

[Soundy 1]

^Yes, but so is an encoder, so... no loss there.

[thewireguys 3]

^^ agreed but I bet a analog camera and encoder will be cheaper and more reliable

[SpyGuy10 0]

^^^ This solution would also use an analog camera and encoder. The only difference is that the physical cabling between the elevator car and the building's CCTV system would be replaced by the laser transmitter/receiver set. If available signal cabling is not already installed in the car's travelling cable harness, then adding it would be very expensive for a 21 story building from what I've read (multiplied by 14 cars!). Plus, you do have to consider maintenance for those cables.

[IPG 0]

.....it's a new build, so cabling cost won't be an issue (well, except for the physical cable). Providing I spec it far enough in advance, then I don't see that as an issue.

 

That said, for upgrades / retrofits it does look intriguing. No pricing that I can see on the site, and it would worry me the availability of qualified installers. From past experience, a system (regardless of what it is) can be amazing, but if installed badly isn't worth a thing.

[Soundy 1]

I'd probably recommend the analog+encoder route using coax in the traveler, especially if that's what you're already familiar with, so you know the right type of cable to use for longevity, the maintenance issues, etc...

 

Then in the future, if they do decide they want MP cameras in the elevators, you can easily retrofit ethernet-over-coax adapters without having to worry about the distance. You'll already have a network drop at the other end for the encoders, so it should be a simple matter to swap over.

[Numb-nuts 1]

as far as I know the Air@-EL100 is the only purpose made solution which will work in such situations.

With 14 elevators faults can be a huge liability not to mention the potential for law suites should there

be an accident with an elevator. Simply explain this to the client and pass on the cost. I have never installed one of these but I know of at least two installations that I have done that have had these retro fitted. Good job I always leave extra capacity. Good luck with your client.

[hardwired 0]

I've tested DSL-type twisted pair Ethernet converters over an existing spare traveler phone cable pair, and it worked fine.

[SpyGuy10 0]

.....it's a new build, so cabling cost won't be an issue (well, except for the physical cable). Providing I spec it far enough in advance, then I don't see that as an issue.

 

That said, for upgrades / retrofits it does look intriguing. No pricing that I can see on the site, and it would worry me the availability of qualified installers. From past experience, a system (regardless of what it is) can be amazing, but if installed badly isn't worth a thing.

If a new build, you might consider spec'ing the install of coax and UTP even if you use neither (e.g., if you go with the laser system). That way there are future options if needed.

 

I have no affilliation with the manufacterer or this distributor; I just did a quick web search out of curiousity. It looks like the 300m version is available for less than $1,000. So I would expect the 100m version to sell for less than that.

 

You may have a point about qualified installers, although I did watch an installation video on the manufacturer's web site and it looked pretty simple: mount the transmitter on the bottom of the car, mount the receiver at the bottom of the shaft, plumb and center the receiver in the laser beam, level, and test.

 

You may want to contact the manufacturer to see if they have any recommended installers in your area. For a job of your size, and considering that their system may be fairly new and they might still be trying to build market share, they may be willing to work out a deal with you that includes installation in exchange for promoting your install in their marketing materials.

[ssmith10pn 0]

I just can't see why you would need anything more than D1 Resolution inside a tiny Elevator car.

[Elevatorcable 0]

You can use flat type CAT6e cable for ip camera or internet connection.

Please check this blog.

 

http://elevator-cable.blogspot.com/2014/03/elevator-cat6-cable.html

[ssmith10pn 0]

It all depends on what's in the traveler cable. I have done 50 story elevators with RG6 that was already in the traveler cables.

 

You have these but they are fairly expensive

http://www.axis.com/products/cam_acc/media_converters/cam_t8640/

 

We use these:

NVT 1701-Kit1

http://www.nvt.com/content.php?type=product&key=ec1701kit1&cid=root

 

We use this camera because it's Black, and low profile. Most of the elevator cars we install in are more than your house.

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-securitycameras/cat-secnethdcams/product-SNCDH110%2FB/

 

If the car has low ceiling we use these

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-securitycameras/cat-secnethdcams/product-SNCDH110T%2FB/

[skomo 0]

2 options for IP in lifts.

 

Option1 - Cat5/6 in lift loom

http://veracityglobal.com/products/ethernet-and-poe-extension/longspan.aspx

Make sure that it is shielded cable installed in the lift loom and then you have your PoE out for any camera.

 

Option2 - coax in lift loom

http://veracityglobal.com/products/ethernet-over-coax/highwire-powerstar.aspx

again make sure the cable has a good shield maybe even double shielded, as normal analogue cameras in lifts get some interference from the electrics...

 

otherwise 3rd option is analogue in lifts and use an encoder. I did 16 lifts using 4 avigilon encoders and it works well. i used the samsung mini domes... nice and discreet. as they had no spare cables in the lift looms. i got the lift guys to run coax down the inside of the shaft and punched out in the basement. (only 8 - 10 floors high)

 

cheers