The non-IP "HD CCTV" cameras are quite intriguing to me

[ssnapier 0]

I really had no clue what these were about until I got a look at them at ISC West. This is a very interesting thing to me because I now have a very simple way to move folks looking for a better image into what they are looking for at a VERY low cost! If you had an established analog system running, you are literally just swapping out cameras and DVR... DONE!

 

The other cool thing is that most of the HD CCTV DVR's I have looked at have a Java based remote viewer instead of the silly Active X train wreck that comes with most low end DVR's. I am not sure why, but this is a very exciting to me!

[nDAlk90 0]

Truth be told I'm excited about this too...

IP sounds great but the ONVIF protocol still needs some work (IMO).

With something like this its just plug and play...

[ak357 0]

I really had no clue what these were about until I got a look at them at ISC West. This is a very interesting thing to me because I now have a very simple way to move folks looking for a better image into what they are looking for at a VERY low cost! If you had an established analog system running, you are literally just swapping out cameras and DVR... DONE!

 

 

When u saw them at ISC

was just live view or u have seen recording too ?

[ssnapier 0]

I saw both from a few different makers, it was pretty dang good.

[thewireguys 3]

If you had an established analog system running, you are literally just swapping out cameras and DVR... DONE!

 

I wouldn't be so sure of that

[SEANHAWG 1]

Yeah it has huge problems with RG59 from what I hear and even a little bit with RG6. You couldnt/shouldnt use RG59. But I did see some beautiful video from them as well. Agreed the live view looks excellent, but the recorded view looks like a typical 1080p IP camera.

 

The major stumbling block on these is the recorders are so expensive and you dont see many that are more than a 4 channel recorder. The DSP's that are in them are so expensive and to add 4 more channels effectively doubles the price. But with so many manufacturers and distributors trying to push them, I see the prices of the recorders coming down very soon. Some of the bigger chinese manufacturers already have plans of making small 1U units. So much to my surprise, I do see this making its way on the scene.

[Soundy 1]

This is a very interesting thing to me because I now have a very simple way to move folks looking for a better image into what they are looking for at a VERY low cost!

Yeah, the HDcctv Alliance has been promising this for three+ years. So far, the equipment is MORE expensive than equivalent-resolution IP gear.

 

If you had an established analog system running, you are literally just swapping out cameras and DVR... DONE!

Do they sell you a bridge with that too?

 

 

The other cool thing is that most of the HD CCTV DVR's I have looked at have a Java based remote viewer instead of the silly Active X train wreck that comes with most low end DVR's. I am not sure why, but this is a very exciting to me!

Seems like a good idea... however, dealing with IQEye cameras that have both ActiveX and Java options, I have to say, the Java is great for compatibility, but lags in performance.

 

BTW, HDcctv is currently limited to 2MP, too.

[MaxIcon 0]

Truth be told I'm excited about this too...

IP sounds great but the ONVIF protocol still needs some work (IMO).

With something like this its just plug and play...

 

I've been doing a lot of mix and match with IP cams and DVRs/NVRs, and yes, ONVIF needs work, but in general, it's off to a good start as a standard. Cams that are well designed and programmed are pretty much plug and play, though there are lots that aren't still, especially in the budget end of things.

 

My main concern would be that these HD non-IP systems are all pretty proprietary, and will take reaching critical mass before you could swap gear between manufacturers.

 

If you think ONVIF is immature, well, this HD CCTV is going to be years before it catches up with where ONVIF is now. Having owned more than a few orphaned proprietary systems of all types, I'm big on staying mainstream and broadly supported these days.

 

Add that IP cam prices are coming down pretty quickly, and I'm a bit doubtful these will get much of a foothold in the big picture. I could be wrong, though - wouldn't be the first time!

 

One thing I miss about analog systems is the overall compatibility, driven by the NTSC/PAL standards. With the exception of ground loops and such, cams are generally compatible with recorders. The limitations are pretty insurmountable, though.

[SEANHAWG 1]

My main concern would be that these HD non-IP systems are all pretty proprietary, and will take reaching critical mass before you could swap gear between manufacturers.

 

Thats the good thing about it, as least that is what they advertise. As long as you have an SDI DVR, any SDI camera should work. Its not like IP cameras where it has protocols from different manufacturers and such. I havent worked with any of them so I cant confirm this, but that is how its supposed to work.

[thewireguys 3]

Thats the good thing about it, as least that is what they advertise. As long as you have an SDI DVR, any SDI camera should work. .

 

This is not true SDI cameras from one manufacture may or may not work with other DVR manufactures. HDcctv is a standard that is like ONVIF for SDI cameras/DVR and if you have HDCCTV cameras and HDcctv DVR they will work IF your cabling and connectors can handle it.

 

Also until they have remote zoom/focus cameras where you only need to run one cable for video/power/control I am not interested.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Guest

[SEANHAWG 1]

Are you sure? I was told If you have an HDCCTV SDI camera hooked up to an HDCCTV SDI DVR, it is supposed to work, atleast that is the theory, regardless of where it was made. This assumes you have the quality cable and connectors that it requires to run this equipment. Correct me if I am wrong.

[NotoriousBRK 0]

Are you sure? I was told If you have an HDCCTV SDI camera hooked up to an HDCCTV SDI DVR, it is supposed to work, atleast that is the theory, regardless of where it was made. This assumes you have the quality cable and connectors that it requires to run this equipment. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

For starters, I think you're mixing terms. That's understandable given all the confusion and poor marketing around this.

 

HD-SDI is a standard (or, set of standards) in the broadcast industry for working with hidef signals from TV camera equipment. It is *mostly* interoperable across various devices. Some manufacturers have started releasing HD-SDI cameras and recorders that should allow you to mix and match brands and equipment readily.

 

HDCCTV is a quasi-standard created by a group of mostly two people to try and make a proprietary subset of the HD-SDI standard that mostly consists of some set parameters and interoperability testing. In theory all HDCCTV equipment is supposed to be guaranteed to work together. But then I think that HDcctv is a different standard and not guaranteed to work with HDCCTV certified equipment. Any or all of this may or may not work with certain HD-SDI gear.

 

The biggest issue is that HD-SDI (the "mother" of all this) is a broadcast standard, and doesn't have much concern for things like PTZ control, higher resolutions (3MP, 5MP, etc.), 180degree cams, alternate aspect ratios, and all the other things that are served by IP cams today. You're basically limited to 720p and 1080i/p cameras and recorders.

 

ALL of the current recorders (and anything predicted for the future) record video in h.264 compression. So, you can talk all you want about the live view quality, framerate, whatever, but the recorded video (what most people watch, and the evidence in any case) will look the same as IP video.

 

Personally (and I may be biased) I view HDCCTV mostly as a very low end product (once the prices come down) and what we will likely see as the Costo DIY systems. It is going to be forever hindered by the limitations of the HD-SDI standard and the fact that CCTV just doesn't factor heavily into their concerns. We've been hearing for 3 years that HDCCTV was going to be the Next Thing and an IP Killer, but it barely has a pulse and by the time it actually gets any traction it's max resolution (1080p) may already be passe and considered entry-level.

[tomcctv 190]

i can see were this thead is going. we are all talking about 2 differant systems.

 

it is best not to get HDcctv mixed up with HD-SDI cctv.

 

mix and match is available with HDcctv but not with HD-SDIcctv.

 

HD-SDI has been around for some years (small broadcasting mobile units tv industry) and the past few years some companies have tried to bring it into the cctv market.

 

take dahua 18 months they have had theres out but never sold Dm did the same only on the market for 3 months.

 

everyone wanted to be the first but the restrictions on cameras did not make it attractive to the sellers.

 

over the past couple of months we have seen HD-SDI cameras come from lots of camera makers like CNB / sunkwang / everfocus. but none have brought out there own recorder.

 

so it looks like now all HD-SDI cameras are built on the same platform its who is going to be first to release a DVR to go with them.

we have had all the new DVR/NVR/ Hybrid and HD-SDI price list from dahua all of which get releast in May

 

but HD-SDI does have 1 problem that the lenth of RG59 / 6 100m

[SEANHAWG 1]

I know they have some already, but standalone NVR's with built in switches always sounded like a great idea for the small systems. And an NVR with a built in POE switch would be even better, heck that would be easier than analog. I think this would make things alot less complicated for newbies as it removes one or 2 less pieces of equipment needed to get setup. Obviously this wouldnt work for huge installs, but for the small installer and DIY market, this would be a nice bridge from analog to IP. If I were a manufacturer trying to get IP into the low end market, this is what I would create. I think the only chance SDI would have is to hit the low end market, but if IP systems with low cost built in switch NVR's came on the scene, SDI would never stand a chance at all.

 

But even if we are talking a 1080p camera compared to an SDI 1080p camera, IP is still better as it has more options. Cool thing about IP cameras is that they are like a camera and DVR all in one, especially when you use SD storage. this is something you couldnt do with an SDI camera. Heck with SD cards getting cheaper and having more space, an NVR may not even be needed for smaller installs in a few years.

[thewireguys 3]

^^^ here you go NVR on camera... https://www.exacq.com/products/exacqvision_edge.html

 

At one point I was looking for NIC cards with POE output. I found some but it was cheaper to purchase cheap POE switch then the POE NIC

[fa chris 0]

I found 5 port NIC's WITHOUT PoE to be cost prohibitive compared to just a normal switch.

 

I'd rather have a switch separate from an NVR personally. Flexibility, switches last forever, NVR's don't, etc. and for install you're talking one additional patch cord and a power supply.

 

As for incompatible cameras, you're almost always a driver away from being able to bring a specific camera online if you need it, and ONVIF is only 3-4 years old so give it time to grow some legs.

[uksecuritycameras 0]

Here is a comparison video we have done using HD-SDI Vs Std CCTV camera, you might find this useful.

 

z3JOWOTlG1k

 

Thanks Tom

Edited April 26, 2012 by Guest

[tomcctv 190]

Here is a comparison video we have done using HD-SDI Vs Std CCTV camera, you might find this useful.

 

 

 

Hi collin. no demo there .......port demo

[Soundy 1]

Reminds me of advertisements for things like skin cremes and whatnot, where the models are frowning in the "before" pictures and smiling in the "after" pictures... which really has nothing to do with how the product works, but it makes the "after" SEEM all that much better.

 

I notice the exposure on the analog camera is very poorly adjusted, making it dark and poorly saturated, which naturally helps make the HD video look that much better.

 

I see there's the standard line about how easy it is to drop these things in place of analog using existing coax, too... *coff coff*

[SEANHAWG 1]

Whats up with the tiny D1 image?

[Soundy 1]

Whats up with the tiny D1 image?

Looks a little closer to the right size if you go fullscreen... but yeah, it looks like the D1 version was intentionally made extra-$#!tty to exaggerate the differences (sure it's unedited and un-enhanced... it's just recorded extra-$#!tty to begin with).

[uksecuritycameras 0]

It was just a cheap cmos cameras that we had knocking about, tis true it could of been a better analog camera, perhaps i'll re-shoot it if ever the sun shines again

[cctvtom 0]

Whats up with the tiny D1 image?

Looks a little closer to the right size if you go fullscreen... but yeah, it looks like the D1 version was intentionally made extra-$#!tty to exaggerate the differences (sure it's unedited and un-enhanced... it's just recorded extra-$#!tty to begin with).

 

Looks right to me. D1 resolution compared to a 1080p will always look bad. If the D1 resolution was viewed at full 1080p resolution, it would probably look worse.

This youtube channel has Full HD, D1, and CIF quality comparisons.

http://www.youtube.com/user/vqcctv?feature=results_main

[Soundy 1]

I'm sorry, but that analog pic is really dark with poor contrast and wonky color balance - that's not "typical" of analog camera technology. It's like they use the absolute crappiest camera they could find for the comparison. In fact, it looks like a camera with a failing sensor, or a poorly-configured (or misconfigured) DVR... or both.

.