Should I replace these BB-HCM531As or just install lighting?

[voip-ninja 0]

So I asked this question in the system section of the forum but might get a few more specific recommendations in this forum.

 

I have three BB-HCM531a cameras installed around my home. They work pretty well, but their night time performance is pretty bad. I would prefer not to leave lights running 24/7 or installing security lighting as in this neighborhood, there are a lot of covenant controls and I am already getting weird looks with my boxy non pod security cameras in the front of the home.

 

So, I've been considering foregoing these cameras as I almost never use the PTZ capability and instead getting some more discreet dome type PT fixed or vario focus lens cameras that have automatic IR cut filters. I would also like to get cameras that have a fairly wide field of view, as the Panasonics don't appear to be particularly wide angle.

 

Any recommendations? I'd like to keep costs down to <$450 per unit if possible as that's about what I can flip the Panasonics for. Two of the cameras will be installed in semi-enclosed areas (under porch overhangs) and as long as they can tolerate cold Colorado temperatures they will probably do okay. Third camera sits under a corner roof overhang and will likely need to be fairly weatherized as it will get some rain and sun exposure.

 

I've seen very mixed reviews on the Vivotek and Acti cameras in this forum, so not sure what else is out there, and I'm open to suggestions.

 

It had previously been recommended that I go with analog cameras and use an IP converter box to convert the signal back to IP. I'm not 100% opposed to going this route, but I'd rather go PoE/IP if possible as I'm already set up for that... I would have some concerns about how well an IP Converter setup would function with my recording software.

 

Thanks

[buellwinkle 0]

In that price range, I use the ACTi 1231 series cameras (both ACM and TCM models), they work really well, my oldest one is probably 4 years old. Has varifocal with a decent wide angle, I think 3.3mm and the built in illuminators do the job. I have a review on my blog, click ACTi under catagory. ACTi provides their NVR Enterprise software for free, it's pretty good, I use it but there's a whole new version coming out soon that is awesome (and still free). Their support is good, RMA's are quick, reliable cameras.

 

Also, ACTi recently came out with the TCM-1111 which is a decontented TCM-1231. I think it's about $350. You lose some of the higher cost features of the 1231 like varifocal lens but may suit your needs. You are used to VGA resolution. Having 1.3MP camera will give you 4X the resolution and you may not need to do varifocal as most of my camera are set at about 4mm anyway.

 

I would not recomend any Vivotek camera. You can see the review on my blog but the owner of that camera is not happy at all and he owns lots of different cameras. Very buggy firmware & software.

 

I just started reviewing a Brickcom for my blog, a newcomer. Really nice bullet camera, crystal clear images, can record to a NAS, has about a 4X autofocus zoom starting at 2.8mm which is really wide, wider than my ACTi 1231. Has a uSD card slot too for recording. This is a step up from the ACTi 1231 in features and quality, but also in price. Brickcom does have one unique feature that sets it apart, it's that they can do wireless, even in their 1.3, 3 and 5MP cameras using dual band WiFi, even 4G if the camera is in a remote location with no internet or you want to keep it in your car and drive around with live video feed to the internet. Very few megapixel cameras can do WiFi let alone 4G. Their illuminator also is very good.

 

ACTi is introducing new models and I'll be reviewing one in about 2 weeks. They are backordered so I've been waiting 2 months for this one, the TCM-7811. What's special is that the IR illuminators are rated 40 meters and it uses a CCD sensor vs. a CMOS which should work better at night. ACTi is coming out with a low light 4MP camera soon, hopefully by summer.

 

As for cold, here's the deal. Most of the bullet cameras will work well in cold, down way below zero. Dome cameras have a large exposed area and typically require a heater to work well in frigid weather. They typically include the heater, but since you need it, you may have to power them with 12V instead of PoE or some use a higher power midspan PoE injector. I'm going to be reviewing an Axis dome that requires a 72W midspan PoE injector which is like 5X the power of a regular PoE. In So Cal, even the mountains, it just doesn't get cold enough to care, maybe 15F on some days (actually supposed to snow tomorrow) so I never tested any camera with the heater on but I'm not going to make any excuses, I like it that way

 

As for lighting, if you can disguise it as landscape lighting, maybe, But don't go out and annoy your neighbors with motion detect 300W floods, that will make them angry. Also motion detect lights don't work as people expect. What happens is the light goes on, the camera goes on, it takes the camera a few seconds to adjust exposure so your capture may be an overblown white blob where the person's head was. If your camera supports profiles which I doubt, you can set it to go into a fixed exposure mode at night that will work with motion detect lights.

[voip-ninja 0]

Thank you very much for the lengthy and extremely informative reply. This will give me something to chew on for the next day or two while I consider ordering one of these alternative cameras to try out. The temperature here rarely goes below zero, and the Panasonic PT cameras have held up through three winters now without any trouble. I think it got down to -10 once and I checked and all of them were still working. I do power them with small single mid-span PoE injectors instead of using a PoE ethernet switch.

 

I have just now been experimenting with the Surveillance Station that is built into my Synology NAS and I have to say that it's a little bit better than I had expected, and the iPad and iPhone apps work pretty well. It can record sound but if sound is recorded then the clips cannot be played on the iPad/iPhone which is unfortunate.... accessing the surveillance software remotely (from work) doesn't seem to be working terribly well but I will continue toying with it.

 

They also build a little 8 channel decoder box that sits on the network and can decode up to 8 cameras and then dump the audio/video output to a television or PC monitor via VGA (I have no idea why they did not just use HDMI)... this is actually pretty slick as I could wire this box up in my entertainment center with an HDMI converter to my flat screen and then with a quick button push I could see the cameras without having to get out my phone or a computer, etc. The box is about $280 so I might have to break down and get one to try.

 

The only problem with the Synology is that they charge $50 per license for each additional camera past the first one, but since I only need two more it's not too outrageous of a cost.

 

I really appreciate your information on the ACTi cameras, I will look up info on the models you mentioned. At most I need about 1 megapixel and maybe 30fps, and I don't have room for a large enclosure, so I might have to reconsider bullet cameras (but I really prefer dome units).... is there anything on the horizon I will kick myself for not waiting on that will be available within the next month or two?

 

Thanks.

[buellwinkle 0]

So far, haven't tested it yet, the TCM-7811 dome is the best bet because of the Sony EXView HAD CCD sensor. For the low $600's it does a lot, wide varifocal lens (3-9mm), SD card slots. The TCM-7411 will save you a few buck but will have a regular CMOS sensor, not bad, but not CCD.

 

The same from Axis will not have the IR Illuminators, and you'll need a P33 series which is about a grand for an outdoor dome with IR cut filter. Then putting in a decent IR illuminator will require additional wiring and cost at least a few hundred bucks.

 

There is one newcomer but they won't let me review their cameras. The OpenEye cm-715I would fit the bill, priced reasonably, 2MP (1080P), 3.3mm-12mm lens. Just don't know anything about them and it's shame but they are the only IP camera company that refused to provide a demo camera to review. They also have an autofocus version called the 715AI but depends on if you will be changing the focal length a lot or like me, set it once for life, so why pay extra.

 

Also, you may be used to two way audio meaning mic and speaker are built into the camera as many Panny's do. Most higher end cameras that give you two way audio, especially outdoor cameras will not have mic & speaker, but provide you jacks for them and each camera has different specs so make sure you get the right mic before just buying any. Even within the ACTi line, they have different specs for mic's for different models. Most people don't want a mic anyway because almost always, it's illegal and against federal wire tapping laws and state laws in many states to record a conversation. So indoors I do use cams with mic's, outdoors I do not. So you may turn in evidence to police for a small crime you captured, and the video may not only become inadmissible in court, but may be used against you and you end up in jail, not the thief. Wierd huh? You can check with a lawyer. We had to for our community, can't put them at risk. You can use audio as an event trigger and you can listen to live audio, just not record audio.

[voip-ninja 0]

Yeah, I don't care about audio really which is why I was looking at the much cheaper Vivotek 8134V. I still might get one to try, might be good for my front door location.

[buellwinkle 0]

Post pics when you get it.

[MaxIcon 0]

I have the FD8134 (not the V, but the indoor model), and it's a pretty good camera for the money (less than $300). Daytime picture quality is very nice, nighttime less so - it's grainy with mediocre dynamic range. I haven't upgraded to the latest software, as people report the night quality drops using it, but may try it at some point.

 

The built-in IR is good for non-intelligent IR, though some people have halo problems with this camera. Mine has a very slight halo, but I ignore it. It washes out when you get too close, like most non-intelligent IR.

 

I like the software, which is flexible and responsive. It's easy to set up, and it and my IP8334s are stable and robust, with very few problems. Overall, the Vivoteks are among my favorites, mostly because I don't have to mess with them much, and running at 10 fps, the frame rates are stable for me. I haven't tried them a lot higher, due to CPU load.

 

I'll try to post some screen caps and clips over the next few days.

[voip-ninja 0]

I have the FD8134 (not the V, but the indoor model), and it's a pretty good camera for the money (less than $300). Daytime picture quality is very nice, nighttime less so - it's grainy with mediocre dynamic range. I haven't upgraded to the latest software, as people report the night quality drops using it, but may try it at some point.

 

The built-in IR is good for non-intelligent IR, though some people have halo problems with this camera. Mine has a very slight halo, but I ignore it. It washes out when you get too close, like most non-intelligent IR.

 

I like the software, which is flexible and responsive. It's easy to set up, and it and my IP8334s are stable and robust, with very few problems. Overall, the Vivoteks are among my favorites, mostly because I don't have to mess with them much, and running at 10 fps, the frame rates are stable for me. I haven't tried them a lot higher, due to CPU load.

 

I'll try to post some screen caps and clips over the next few days.

 

That sounds great, thanks. The area that the camera would be going is more or less pitch black at night and we simply want the ability to determine if someone is there or not, not necessarily high quality detail for facial recognition and the like.

 

I forgot that with my CAT5 wall plate run in the corner of that area it's going to be impossible to orient a dome camera properly without re-routing the cable feed up to the ceiling, so more than like I am going to have to go with a bullet camera if I really want to do this, it looks like ACTi and Vivotek both make ones for around $300 that might fit the bill.

 

I'm also looking at the ACTi camera (7000 series PT) for my property corner camera position, looks pretty good, the night mode samples look amazing.

[MaxIcon 0]

I like the Vivotek IP8332s a good bit more than the FD8134, even though the specs are nearly identical. I mostly use outdoor cams, so that part is a no-brainer, but the mounting issue is the other big part. Mine came with an extra insert for the cable gland nut that let me switch to a single network cable quickly and easily. The included mount is decent, but not industrial grade, and it took a good bit longer to run the cable than to mount the cams.

 

They light up the pitch dark, no problem. I had my 8134 propped up on top of a bookcase in the living room while we were on vacation a while back, and we could watch the cats sleeping on the couch with pretty good clarity.

 

Which is the Acti model you're looking at? I've heard their image quality is better, but haven't found any in the same price range as the Vivoteks with similar features. I'm always up to try out another cam.

[buellwinkle 0]

To me, most cameras do well during the day, the difference is how well they do at night.

[voip-ninja 0]

OK, this is probably a stupid question, but do the dome cameras like the ACTi TCM7811 and the Vivotek 8431 have "pan" adjustment so that if I put it in a corner, on the wall I can pan the camera lens out to see to the right or left of the dome location?

 

I will take a picture of the current installation location to try to make it clearer what I am describing.

[voip-ninja 0]

attachment of current cam location

[buellwinkle 0]

Yes, you can pan left and right, but you have to take the camera apart to do so These models are fixed domes, meaning they stay put until you take them apart and change the angle the lens points to.

 

If you want PTZ speed domes, then that's totally different beast and way, way more expensive. If you are considering that, check out my reviews on the PTZ Panny and Axis on my blog, cool cameras if you have that need.

 

An alternative to PT are the new 180 degree cams. You mount them flat on the wall and you get a panoramic 180 degree view or you can break them up into sections and each section becomes a stream. Geovision, ACTi, Mobotix make these cameras (maybe others too). The ACTi KCM-3911 is 4MP, if you break that up into 4 streams, it would be like having four 1MP cameras, each one covering 45 degrees. Maybe I'll review that after I'm done with the ACTI TCM-7811 review. They also come as 360 degree cams, set one up, a Mobotix Q24 in a clubhouse to monitor people coming in/out through different doors. The only downside to Mobotix is that you have to chose, day or night, not both, where the Geovision and ACTi are both day/night in one camera.

[voip-ninja 0]

OK, thanks. I see that there are also "wall brackets" for most of these dome cameras, which allow you to suspend the dome camera from the bracket rather than mounting it directly to the wall so I suppose if there is not enough adjustment for panning on the camera that could be a back out plan.

 

I have been playing with Synology Surveillance Station and it has been a frustrating experience. When it works, it's pretty damn impressive, especially as they include a free iPad and iPhone app and it has a pretty slick presentation of recording events and the like. The quality is also very very good when using MPEG4 and the in-camera motion detection of my Panasonics.

 

The frustration is that they have limited web browser support, it uses Java (so it's slow slow slow) and I am having trouble viewing my cameras remotely from some locations (such as my work) and I get connection errors periodically on the iPhone/iPad apps. Blue Iris works fairly well already but I am really looking to migrate onto something more modern and I was hoping to leverage my NAS for more of these tasks... I suppose I can investigate Milestone Xconnect too.

 

This is all a little overwhelming, but the direction that I am now leaning in is a cheap IR dome or bullet for the front and rear entry locations as well as a higher quality dome (ACTi) for the corner. If the field of view is wide enough I really should not need an actual PTZ.... I have no real need to zoom in on license plates or pan up and down the street. The cameras are primarily there for our own amusement and as a deterrent for when we are on vacation. We live in a very safe neighborhood but the occasional break-in has happened over the years.

[buellwinkle 0]

Domes are typically mounted against a wall or under an eave. Most companies do sell what I call a tear drop mount that mounts on a wall or pole and allows the camera to sit further from the wall. They may also make a straight version that allows you to hang the camera under an eave but have it lower. You move the lens to any angle you want from the edge of the camera to the other edge. Clearly if you mount it using a mount like a tear drop, the camera faces down, it can not be made to point upwards but most people mount it high looking downwards anyway.

 

Also, if you buy from a single company, like ACTi, Brickcom, Vivotek, as an example, the provide very good NVR software for free. ACTi will be releasing their latest software soon which is awsome, but their current software is still pretty good and you can run it on the cheapest slowest PC you can find. I had it running on a cheapie Atom processor PC and it barely went over 20% CPU utilization with 6 cams. They also provide an iPhone app for free. The nice thing of the Atom PC I use is that it has HDMI out, so I have it plugged in the TV, want to see cameras, just change the HDMI input on the TV. Watching it on a large flat panel is the way to go. Hear a noise at night, flip the TV on and you have a 360 degree view of what's going on.

[voip-ninja 0]

Does ACTi have an iPhone/ipad app?

 

I don't plan on buying a new server to run surveillance software. I have an older Windows Home Server that I run Blue Iris on, I think it has a 1.6ghz processor and 2GB of RAM. The OS is Server 2003 based.

 

I also have a Synology NAS.

 

I will be using one of these two devices for surveillance software, not getting a 3rd box.

[buellwinkle 0]

Yes, ACTi provides an iPhone/iPad app that link up to it's NVR software, so you see all the cameras you have setup at the same time on your IOS device, tapping a camera makes that one camera full screen.

 

Never tried the Synology NAS, looks like a cost effective solution. Does that work even with their low end $200 NAS? My only concern is can it keep up with HD cameras as your system grows. I say this because the NAS CPU is doing the video motion detect for each camera, it has to decompress the image, determine if there has been a change from frame to frame. Sort of what kills BlueIris. With vendor software l like ACTi (or others), they relly on the camera to handle the motion detection and then only stream video if motion is detected by the camera. Hence the very low CPU and network activity with this setup. So it may work fine with all VGA cameras as BlueIris did for me early on. As I started swapping megapixel for vga cams, it started going downhill very quickly. Imagine a 1080P camera is like 8 VGA cameras in the amount of bits.

[voip-ninja 0]

The Synology NAS gives you the choice of doing in-camera motion detection or using their software to do it. I would imagine that their motion detection, when done in software, is not as sophisticated as that done by the big guys.

 

The 1511+ unit I have can be grown to 20 cameras doing 1280X1024 resolution at 30 fps. It includes a license for 1 and each additional camera license is about $40-$50. Really not cost effective for huge deployments but since I have only three cameras and would at most add a fourth one it's really not too much of a concern.... using 1 camera I never see the cpu go above 5% when it's doing camera recording, so I don't see it as being much of a problem.

 

The advantage for me of sticking with Synology for this is that the NAS is already running 24/7 anyways, which sure beats wasting money and power on a redundant box just for recording.

 

The disadvantage of the Synology solution is that they are relatively new to Surveillance (their 1st Surveillance station version came out in 2009 I believe) and their software relies on Active-X controls and Java, both of which are pretty atrocious in my opinion. Their iPad/iPhone app is really nice since it lets you view motion recordings and even works over the internet on a 3G connection, but, as I mentioned it seems to have some connection/timeout problems.

[buellwinkle 0]

Sounds like a great idea. Too bad they have to charge you for each license. If the NAS dies and you buy a new one, do they let you transfer the camera licenses to the new device? I did check out their camera matrix and they do allow you to use the camera's alarm inputs as well as it's video motion detection so that's great. Great selection of cameras.

 

I would imagine if you got their budget line that sells for $200+drives that it may not support that many cameras and the response time on the software may not do so well. You have their higher end, so probably faster processors too. Where I was thinking is that I have 5 cameras in our vacation home but they are for alert only and one records to SD card slot. If I can get a $200 NAS, put a small hard drive in it, it would be an economical solution as I would probably only record on 2-3 cameras anyway (1 is just to look out the window to check weather conditions, another one is just there, old camera).

[voip-ninja 0]

All their new NAS units have robust CPUs. The DS-212+ says it supports 12 cameras, so I imagine that with 5 cameras it would do just fine. Not sure what your budget is, but the 212+ is about $400 then you'd need to spring about another $160-$200 for camera licenses plus a hard drive.

 

If they could improve the web performance of their app (or even just build a cheap viewer page for viewing video on a non java capable browser over the internet) as well as fix some of these disconnect/crash bugs I'm seeing with the iOS apps they would have a pretty good hit on their hands.

 

I am considering it for my wife's office, but they will have to demonstrate to me that their support is up to speed first.

[MaxIcon 0]

I have the FD8134 (not the V, but the indoor model), and it's a pretty good camera for the money (less than $300). Daytime picture quality is very nice, nighttime less so - it's grainy with mediocre dynamic range. I haven't upgraded to the latest software, as people report the night quality drops using it, but may try it at some point.

 

The built-in IR is good for non-intelligent IR, though some people have halo problems with this camera. Mine has a very slight halo, but I ignore it. It washes out when you get too close, like most non-intelligent IR.

 

I like the software, which is flexible and responsive. It's easy to set up, and it and my IP8334s are stable and robust, with very few problems. Overall, the Vivoteks are among my favorites, mostly because I don't have to mess with them much, and running at 10 fps, the frame rates are stable for me. I haven't tried them a lot higher, due to CPU load.

 

I'll try to post some screen caps and clips over the next few days.

 

That sounds great, thanks. The area that the camera would be going is more or less pitch black at night and we simply want the ability to determine if someone is there or not, not necessarily high quality detail for facial recognition and the like.

 

I've posted a variety of nighttime pics from the Vivotek IP8332 in the IP cam pics thread. It's very similar to the FD8334 dome cam.

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=11322&p=188429#p188429

[voip-ninja 0]

Thanks! That really helps, that's really about what I'm looking for as far as night time capabilities go.

 

Unfortunately it appears that Vivotek only rates the 8134V down to 0 degrees centigrade, where as we regularly need the ability of the camera to survive temps of about 0 fahrenheit, so... the search goes on.

[buellwinkle 0]

What's the max exposure set on Vivotek? During my testing, I set it to 1/30th since that's realistic to capture motion but the camera may come from the factory set at a longer exposure.

[voip-ninja 0]

So guys, I think I've ruled out bullet cameras. I built a mock-up of one of the smaller bullet cameras out of cardboard, my wife took one look at it and said "no F*ing way!"

 

So, I think I'm going to try a single camera at the entry as an experiment, before I replace all of my Panasonic cams (and those Panasonics have been so good to me it's going to be hard).

 

I've narrowed it down to the Vivotek 8134V and the Acti ACM-3511. The Acti is not an outdoor camera (as I'm installing it in the corner of an enclosed/roofed area I think I can get away with it), but it does have a lower temperature range than the Vivotek (down to 14F and it only very rarely gets colder than that and normally not for more than a few hours at a time) and the Acti also has a vari-focal lens and from the demo videos it looks like it might have less "IR glare" than the Vivotek.

 

My question with the Acti is that the hardware manual does not explain what adjustments to the lens can be made for wall mounting. Acti shows a wall mounting bracket. Is the lens assembly on the Acti a 3-axis adjustable unit like the Vivotek so that I can place the dome directly on the wall?

 

If anyone knows I think I can get the ball rolling and will update the thread once I get ahold of a unit.

[buellwinkle 0]

The ACM-3511 is an indoor dome, but I guess you can use it outside if it's well protected. It comes with a wall mount that's a stamped steel disk about 3" in diameter that you screw to your wall with the ethernet cable coming out the middle. Then you plug the camera and twist and lock the camera on the mount. This was my only dome until I started testing the TCM-7811 this week. Unless the area is well protected, I would not use this camera outdoors. Even when mounted, the electronics are exposed in the back as the bracket does not make any attempt to seal the camera. It does very little light bleed that many domes with illuminators suffer.

 

In comparison between the ACM-3511 and the TCM-7811, besides the obvious that one is made for indoors vs. outdoors, the 7811 uses a CCD instead of the CMOS in the 3511. For the 7811, the contrast is significantly better, the noise is significantly reduced, the LED's are about twice as effective, it has faster FPS, h.264 and backlight compensation that the 3511 does not.

 

The TCM-7811, being an outdoor dome is a cast metal body where half the dome housing is screwed to the wall or wall bracket. You then screw in the guts of the camera, plug in the ethernet cable and screw on the dome cover. If you mount a dome outdoors on a wall, consider that there maybe sun glare reflecting off the dome and maybe bird poop if they land on it. I would mount it with the dome facing down using a wall bracket or under an eave. You'll see if you install the dome why domes require a heater, they are very exposed, unlike bullets that are better insulated.