Need Cameras For Business

[aethyr 0]

I'm new to the forum and cameras in general and just 1 hour on this forum has proven to be far more useful than days of googling.

 

I was wondering if I could get some guidance.

 

I own a martial arts school and would like to offer video as a premium service to my students. My idea is to place various IP cameras around the training mats, focus on certain areas of the mat and record during the class. The students (and family members) could then access the videos and watch themselves later.

 

The challenge is that I need to be able to control when the cameras record and which cameras record. I don't want to record the ENTIRE class, just certain portions. And I may want to disable certain cameras if there is no one in that area. Ideally, I would be able to use a touchpad, like an android or ipad to control all my cameras. I'm a programmer so I can do this part, but I need cameras that provide an API (application programming interface). So far I've found that AXIS cameras provide an API to their cameras that I could use to accomplish this. But I really need to actually play with a real AXIS camera and see how the API works to see if the API is suitable for my needs.

 

And as for the camera specs, I'd prefer at least 720p at 30fps. No night/low light capability needed. I was looking at PTZ cameras because I don't want the superwide angle that most fixed cameras offer. I need to zoom in on specific areas of the training area. But on this forum, I learned you can actually swap out the lens! So maybe I only need a fixed camera with a different lens...but then how do I go about finding the right lens without trying them all out?

 

And budget...like all newbies, I thought a $100/camera would cut it. Then I realized...no. So now, I've accepted that need to spend at least $500-$600 per camera to meet my camera spec requirements. Even here, there are so many choices and brands, I don't know how to choose between these.

 

Is there a demo program out there that lets you try out different cameras? Otherwise, I'm just hitting and missing. Or maybe I need to just hire a pro? Any other thoughts and guidance would be much appreciated.

[buellwinkle 0]

Not sure how IP cams would fit in, but first, PTZ cameras for $500, 720P, hmm, not going to happen. You can go through my blog, I have reviews on two 720 PTZ cameras, the Axis P55 which runs over $2K and the least expensive decent 720P PTZ I've found, the Panny WV-SC385 for just over a grand. Will be doing a review on the Q60 series next, that's 1080P, but also not $500, heck, the sales tax may be close to that much.

 

Many camera companies have SDKs, like Axis that you mention. If you can develop your own IOS apps that would be really cool to turn a camera on/off, pan/tilt/zom, start recording. But there should be plenty of IOS apps already inexistance that let you control the PTZ and start/stop recording. Also, most cameras let you setup an external trigger. For example, you can setup a physical switch to start recording and setup an event to record when the switch is pressed. You can even have it trigger a red recording light. Also, is audio important? If so, you'll need to get microphones, they typically don't come with the camera.

 

An alternative may be to have a series of 720P cameras fixed cameras with a varifocal (manual zoom) lens or interchanable lenses so you can set the focal length where you want it. Make sure it has audio and external inputs. Can't think of any off hand that are cost effective enough, but Axis makes a bunch of low cost domes starting with M3xxxx.

 

If it was me, I would use a camcorder, $200, pay a kid to shoot the video.

[aethyr 0]

Thanks for your thoughts. The red light trigger is...awesome! I didn't even realize that was an option. That would be perfect. And yes, if there are already iOS apps that do what I need, less work for me.

 

And yes, audio is preferred, although not absolutely essential.

 

Varifocal...yes that would work just fine as well, since once I acquire the right frame, I don't need to change it.

 

Would about the AXIS M5014? It has a street price of around $550. It is 720p@30fps. Is that not a good option?

 

But I've already learned a few things from your post - external trigger, varifocal and existing iOS apps to control the cams. Thanks!

[tomcctv 190]

Hi the axis M50 range is in your budget. and it may be better for you to mount the camera on a tall tripod. with direct input to a laptop for start stop / zoom / pan / tilt and record from.

 

 

 

 

[buellwinkle 0]

If the fighting area is against a wall, you could mount 2 say domes at different points along the wall and one in the ceiling for a professional look. The only issue I have with the M50 is that it's digital zoom, so it will degrade the image if used. Also, I would imagine you would want different angles of the same action, to sort of stitch a montage together of a certain fighting move. A series of cameras at different angles, maybe one higher than the other to get different perspective, may keep it interesting. Where a PT camera can move the area being filmed, but is not giving you a different point of view.

 

From Axis, M stands for inexpensive, the only M camera that has external ports is the M1054. I find the camera little grainy and no varifocal/zoom lens. Lens is glued in place. Then you get into the P & Q series and the price gets out of what I think you'll want to pay.

 

Move into Taiwan made cameras (Messoa, Brickcom, ACTi, Vivotek, OpenEye, AVTech, Speco) and the prices drop, features go up but quality is still very good on most of them. The best deal I've seen in a simple indoor dome, and I haven't been able to get a hold of one to test is OpenEye. The CM-610 is 2MP (1080P) at 15fps or 720P at 30fps. It's not varifocal but comes in a choice of 3 lenses, not sure if they are interchangable after the fact. I've demo'ed one, pretty good and at as little as $200, not a wallet buster but no external inputs/outputs. The CM-715 does, but then the price doubles.

[skane 0]

 

If it was me, I would use a camcorder, $200, pay a kid to shoot the video.

 

+1. For this type of requirement, I would lean toward a few decent quality camcorders that have zoom, remote, and autofocus features. Maybe put them on PTZ mounts. You'll get audio and red recording lights off the camcorder. Face the camcorder screen toward the front of cam for review/aiming.

[aethyr 0]

 

If it was me, I would use a camcorder, $200, pay a kid to shoot the video.

 

+1. For this type of requirement, I would lean toward a few decent quality camcorders that have zoom, remote, and autofocus features. Maybe put them on PTZ mounts. You'll get audio and red recording lights off the camcorder. Face the camcorder screen toward the front of cam for review/aiming.

 

I can't have a kid or a tripod because these cameras are going to be automatically recording every class, every day and each camera is going to be focused on different parts of the training area. And tripods won't work because, well, they're kinda clumsy and get in the way and could get bumped or knocked over.

 

And I want everything automated, especially the recording. If I'm going to have 8 cameras, I don't want to walk over to each one to hit 'record'.

 

But most important is high quality video. I wish I could use a consumer camcorder because even the cheapest ones do 1080p@30fps for under $500. But since an IP camera that can do 1080p@30fps is going to cost over $1000k, I'll have to settle for 720p@30fps.

[ak357 0]

But since an IP camera that can do 1080p@30fps is going to cost over $1000k, I'll have to settle for 720p@30fps.

 

 

Or for the same price, you can get four 1080p Cisco "Flip" cameras... easily the most superior camera on the planet.

 

What a discovery about "Flip"

why the hell we been selling overpriced IP cams

when "flip" can do it all

 

Matt whom do I thanks ?

 

you or "aethyr"

 

Hmm, I hope He charge customers in his martial arts school about $ 1.99 or $ 2.49 for few hours

Oh, He is also programmer

Hmm, may be we can hire him for $ 4.99 per hour

[Soundy 1]

Yeah, pretty sure I could teach Martial Arts for $2.49/class... I dunno why anyone would pay hundreds of dollars for it. I mean, I've seen every Jean-Claude Van Damme movie at least twice, how hard can it be?

[ak357 0]

Yeah, pretty sure I could teach Martial Arts for $2.49/class... I dunno why anyone would pay hundreds of dollars for it. I mean, I've seen every Jean-Claude Van Damme movie at least twice, how hard can it be?

 

lets say you have 20 student

and lets say each pay $ 50 per lesson

so about $ 1000 per night or more

times lets say 20-22 days

u get my drift

but noooo IP mega pix cam created by other people should cost $ 100

No wonder North America in deep s...t

everybody want to pay next to nothing

but everybody want to make 100's of thousands per year

How ?

[aethyr 0]

Yeah, pretty sure I could teach Martial Arts for $2.49/class... I dunno why anyone would pay hundreds of dollars for it. I mean, I've seen every Jean-Claude Van Damme movie at least twice, how hard can it be?

 

lets say you have 20 student

and lets say each pay $ 50 per lesson

so about $ 1000 per night or more

times lets say 20-22 days

u get my drift

but noooo IP mega pix cam created by other people should cost $ 100

No wonder North America in deep s...t

everybody want to pay next to nothing

but everybody want to make 100's of thousands per year

How ?

 

You're so threatened by my critique on the cameras that you somehow feel I'm attacking your livelihood. Why? Because the people getting riled up about my post are the camera pros. You install cameras. Why do you particularly care if someone says that the cameras are overpriced? I'm not saying your services are overpriced, I'm saying that the manufacturers are overpricing your equipment. If one day, the prices of IP cameras slashed to 1/5 and matched consumer cameras, would you somehow loose sleep? Wouldn't that HELP your business? And yet you and Soundy are getting your panties in a bunch because I'm complaining that there is a price inequality between essentially the same two machines.

 

My martial arts school charges what every other school in the area charges. We don't charge 10x more. We don't charge 2x more. We're in the same ballpark give or take $10-20. And guess what? We also charge the same as dance schools, crossfit, swim schools or any other instructor/student type of learning environment. Martial arts is worlds different than ballet, yet the fees are very similar. Why are they similar? Because given an average martial arts instructor or an average ballet instructor, the market is willing to endure $X for a classroom environment with hands on instruction. That's it. The common element is hands on instruction. Everything else, kicks and punches or pirouettes and splits are all irrelevant to the pricing discussion.

 

Likewise, as I mentioned in the other thread, which you decided to drag into this one, is that the main cost of a camera is image quality. Everything else is secondary in cost. The difference between a $1000 camera and a $3000 isn't lens changeability, its image quality. Nothing in the IP camera cost equation, other than image quality, SHOULD be the majority of the cost difference between an IP cam and a consumer cam. Yet you guys are arguing that motion detection and a lens mount makes that cost difference. And I claim THAT is a :picard:

[ak357 0]

 

You're so threatened by my critique on the cameras that you somehow feel I'm attacking your livelihood. Why? Because the people getting riled up about my post are the camera pros. You install cameras. Why do you particularly care if someone says that the cameras are overpriced? I'm not saying your services are overpriced, I'm saying that the manufacturers are overpricing your equipment. If one day, the prices of IP cameras slashed to 1/5 and matched consumer cameras, would you somehow loose sleep? Wouldn't that HELP your business? And yet you and Soundy are getting your panties in a bunch because I'm complaining that there is a price inequality between essentially the same two machines.

 

My martial arts school charges what every other school in the area charges. We don't charge 10x more. We don't charge 2x more. We're in the same ballpark give or take $10-20. And guess what? We also charge the same as dance schools, crossfit, swim schools or any other instructor/student type of learning environment. Martial arts is worlds different than ballet, yet the fees are very similar. Why are they similar? Because given an average martial arts instructor or an average ballet instructor, the market is willing to endure $X for a classroom environment with hands on instruction. That's it. The common element is hands on instruction. Everything else, kicks and punches or pirouettes and splits are all irrelevant to the pricing discussion.

 

 

What is YOUR definition of VALUE ?

[aethyr 0]

 

You're so threatened by my critique on the cameras that you somehow feel I'm attacking your livelihood. Why? Because the people getting riled up about my post are the camera pros. You install cameras. Why do you particularly care if someone says that the cameras are overpriced? I'm not saying your services are overpriced, I'm saying that the manufacturers are overpricing your equipment. If one day, the prices of IP cameras slashed to 1/5 and matched consumer cameras, would you somehow loose sleep? Wouldn't that HELP your business? And yet you and Soundy are getting your panties in a bunch because I'm complaining that there is a price inequality between essentially the same two machines.

 

My martial arts school charges what every other school in the area charges. We don't charge 10x more. We don't charge 2x more. We're in the same ballpark give or take $10-20. And guess what? We also charge the same as dance schools, crossfit, swim schools or any other instructor/student type of learning environment. Martial arts is worlds different than ballet, yet the fees are very similar. Why are they similar? Because given an average martial arts instructor or an average ballet instructor, the market is willing to endure $X for a classroom environment with hands on instruction. That's it. The common element is hands on instruction. Everything else, kicks and punches or pirouettes and splits are all irrelevant to the pricing discussion.

 

 

What is YOUR definition of VALUE ?

 

I suppose its the same as anyone else's. Why?

[thewireguys 3]

I think your going about this the wrong way. You could easily setup a couple of Axis M5014 720P PTZ cameras and set them up to record when your open for business. No need to worry about starting and stopping the recording let them record all day then when the class is over export the clips you need. I would recommend Avigilon CORE VMS supper simple to setup and export the video in AVI format the you can give your customers. You could even add the Gateway license to give you remote viewing of the cameras on your apple/android device when your walking around the dojo.

 

Here is a clip from the Axis M5014

 

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