Issues with baluns

[prinler 0]

Hey guys! I been doing more and more CCTV installs for friends and family. Everything went well using Everfocus Ecor DVR's and Speco Intensifier cameras. What a good combo. Any way, i am having connectivity issues. I tried the gray baluns on ebay ( i have also seen people recommending them on here) and they work great. Here is my issue. I have been using the same little project boxes from home depot and when i put my connectors in my connections start to flicker and will drop completely. Some times i will do all my camera side, close them up and goto connect the DVR side and i get nothing on half or more of them. I have to wiggle and jiggle them till they work. Some times i have to come back weeks later because one moved and i lost connectivity.

 

Is there any way to FIX this?

Is there a tighter cheap balun that works better? More solid?

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/130549142417?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649#ht_3300wt_1163

[vector18 1]

This is why I use siamese cable, not cat5 with baluns.

[Soundy 1]

Never used those particular baluns... are you sure your RJ-45 terminations are assembled properly and crimped solidly? Are you using proper T-568A or B layout in them?

 

I'm usually using this type:

 

 

This is why I use siamese cable, not cat5 with baluns.

Because you don't know how to crimp RJ-45s?

[vector18 1]

Wrong. Because that is just one more thing that can go bad. Why would you add a device that has any chance of malfunctioning if you don't have to? I don't know about you, but as a tech, I learn from mistakes, not continue doing them and praying that the last problem was just a fluke. Or the same problem that many others ate experiencing over and over again. Just google around and you will easily see how many people experience any sort of issue with baluns and than google to find out how many people are having issues with straight rg59 with a bnc on it.

[vector18 1]

And just because you personally have either no issues at all or next to none, that means squat to me. The fact is that the odds of a quality balun installed correctly by a professional malfunctioning is a greater chance compared to an rg59 with a properly installed compression bnc installed by a professional. I do not care what you think or say. That is a fact. And like I said, why would someone install something that has a GREATER chance of something failing, if they DO NOT HAVE TO!!

[Soundy 1]

I've had just as many problems with bad BNC crimps as I have with twitchy baluns... which amounts to probably 0.01% of connections either way. Any wire can fail, any type of connector can fail, any type of connection can fail.

 

On the other hand, if I'm using Cat5e only:

 

- it means saving money because Cat5e is now cheaper than plain RG59, never mind Siamese, or RG59+separate power;

 

- it means I save space in the van by not having to carry multiple types of cables (since Cat5e is also good for intercoms and access controls, it also saves me needing to carry around 20/4 and Station-Z);

 

- it means I save the customer money by not needing to pull new cabling if they want IP cameras later, or if they want to add a camera anywhere near an existing camera;

 

- it means I save the customer money by reducing installation time because UTP is FAR, FAR easier to work with than Siamese, especially if pulling multiple runs at once.

 

But, you know, do whatever works for you...

[prinler 0]

I'm glad to have passionate people in my thread! So

Baluns are the future but did I just go tooo cheap? Or is there a way to secure they for a permanent solution.

FYI I can never get these rg connectors to work! Always wiggling them to!

[Soundy 1]

I'm glad to have passionate people in my thread! So

Baluns are the future but did I just go tooo cheap? Or is there a way to secure they for a permanent solution.

FYI I can never get these rg connectors to work! Always wiggling them to!

Well it really depends where your problem lies. If you're crimping your own RJ-45 plugs onto the end of the Cat5e, that would be my first guess as to the source of the problem - they probably just aren't right. You could alternately try punch-down keystone jacks and short patch cables on a couple, and see if that's more solid, since they're harder to screw up

 

You could also use screw-terminal baluns, like my picture above - that eliminates the chance of a bad RJ-45 termination. With the baluns you're using, the only components are on the video pair - the power pairs just pass straight through - so with screw terminals, you just split those pairs out and splice them either directly to your camera's power wires, or to an appropriate connector.

[Numb-nuts 1]

Cat5 cable was never designed to work with screw down terminals. The way I deal with this is using 0.25mm chord end ferrules crimped onto the stripped end, trimmed if necessary and set into the the baluns. No amount of moving the cable will cause the connection to fail.

 

I use ferrule ends on all screw down connections and they just never fail. Invest in a good crimp tool

either plier or ratchet operated, they are a great way of solving the problems you describe.

 

Try searching your search engine for Ferrules Direct (in US), you should use the insulated ones as they tend not to allow the wire to break, and be prepared spend around $45 on a good crimping tool, with the range 24 to 10AWG (0.25 to 6.00mm2) 0.5 mm ferrules will work with both cat5 and with cat6 cable and you can use stranded cable too.

 

I would put a link to the best supplier here but they will simply remove the link (so why should I bother).

Further, if you make any connections in a junction box outdoors, smear the contacts with Contralube to protect from corrosion.

 

I have the blue tool shown below and it's great. One of the cheapest ratchet controlled tools around and does the job without any trouble @ around $44

 

[groovyman 0]

Something to consider is the type of cable and connectors. Cat5 & Cat6 require different RJ-45 connectors. Stranded or solid may require different RJ-45 connectors if the connectors are not designed for both.

 

I think it's obvious if the video flickers and the baluns &/or cable has to be jiggled, a proper connection isn't being made somewhere.

 

It could be something with the baluns or connectors also - maybe something in the manufacturing process. A few years ago I purchased a bag of RJ-45 connectors at a local computer show. They were absolute crap and I threw them away. The few dollars I saved was not worth the aggrivation I went through with those cheap pieces of crap.

[prinler 0]

I use the Cat5e connectors from Homedepot. They are just like the rest of the ice cubes i have always used in my life. I have done maybe 5000+ cat5 ends. I have little failure rate.

I will take all your advice and use it the best way i can. Gonna try different baluns and crimp those ends on and screw down.

Can you tell me what kind of cable you use? Previously i would just goto CED and get there 1000' box for $99. I had a failure last pull last house so i opted for the more expensive indoor/outdoor tan from Homedepot 500' for $70.00. It seems thicker and more stiff. It matches most house eves and it seemed to pull easier (less stretch and self kink protection due to the thicker jacket). $70 for 500' tho.... The blue stuff on the reel from CED is so limp but it works for inside applications well. What do you use? where do you get it? How much do you pay?

[groovyman 0]

I use the Cat5e connectors from Homedepot. They are just like the rest of the ice cubes i have always used in my life. I have done maybe 5000+ cat5 ends. I have little failure rate.

Great. Didn't know you're experience level. That certainly isn't the issue then

 

I have some small suppliers in my area and always bought from them. I always like to support the small business guy rather than the huge suppliers. But, I haven't bought much cable in the last couple of years as these days I don't run much of the cable on the jobs I get. I have a couple of guys who do a great job. I don't need to be the guy up on the ladder pulling anymore - been there, done that & tired of it (and my back thanks me for it ). I'll terminate, mount patch panels, switches, routers, cameras, etc. and configure all the equipment. I can't completely avoid running cable, but I avoid it as much as I can

[Soundy 1]

Cat5 cable was never designed to work with screw down terminals.

And yet, if handled properly, it works just fine with them.

[vector18 1]

I've had just as many problems with bad BNC crimps as I have with twitchy baluns... which amounts to probably 0.01% of connections either way. Any wire can fail, any type of connector can fail, any type of connection can fail.

 

I'm glad you read my comment about even if you haven't had any problems with baluns, that means squat because if you google, you will see how many people are constantly having problems with them. The fact of the matter is, baluns are circuit boards and have a higher chance of failing compared to a connector.

 

On the other hand, if I'm using Cat5e only:

- it means saving money because Cat5e is now cheaper than plain RG59, never mind Siamese, or RG59+separate power;

 

So how much are you paying for video baluns? If you do a camera job with 16 cameras, you need 32 baluns. How

much does that cost compared to 32 bnc's? And at my distributor where I go in NY, siamese and cat 5e is not that much different in price.

 

- it means I save space in the van by not having to carry multiple types of cables (since Cat5e is also good for intercoms and access controls, it also saves me needing to carry around 20/4 and Station-Z);

 

Maybe your company is not successful enough that you can drive around in a full size work truck that is capable of holding different types of wire. I'm sorry to hear that your not doing well enough.

 

 

 

- it means I save the customer money by not needing to pull new cabling if they want IP cameras later, or if they want to add a camera anywhere near an existing camera;

 

It means you make less money because you won't be able to charge to run new wire for an IP system. Maybe

this is why your not successful enough to buy a full size van that can hold different types of wire. Again, sorry to hear that your business is not doing well.

 

 

 

- it means I save the customer money by reducing installation time because UTP is FAR, FAR easier to work with than Siamese, especially if pulling multiple runs at once.

 

If you can't pull siamese easily, get out of the industry and find a new career.

 

 

 

But, you know, do whatever works for you...

 

Thanks, I will.

[tomcctv 190]

If you can't pull siamese easily, get out of the industry and find a new career.

 

 

 

same applies to those who dont understand baluns and cat5.

I'm glad you read my comment about even if you haven't had any problems with baluns, that means squat because if you google, you will see how many people are constantly having problems with them. The fact of the matter is, baluns are circuit boards and have a higher chance of failing compared to a connector.

 

 

 

Circuit board in a balun ...... this could be your problem...... it a coil.

 

 

 

 

 

but calm down a little. some installers like coax some like cat5 and neither reflects how someone runs there company

[survtech 0]

WOW, such animosity!

 

Here's my 2¢:

With over 600 cameras installed on our site using 2-wire UTP (plus at least 500 using coax), I can say you both are right. Failure rates for UTP systems are higher than for coax, although both methods have very low rates of failure.

 

For coax, a large percentage of the failures are on mini-coax, where connector crimps are weaker, and thus more problematic. RG59 connections are the most reliable.

 

For UTP, the most common problem is wires not making good contact with the balun. We have used three types of baluns: IDC-type, where the wires are pushed into a v-shaped metal piece, similar to a punchdown; screw-type, where the wires are wrapped around a screw terminal, which is tightened down on the wire and connector block-type, where the wire is inserted in a hole and a screw is tightened down on it. Each type can have issues:

* IDC-type - the IDC can fail to make good contact with a wire. Its contact can occasionally loosen over time. More often, the IDC actually cuts through the wire, either during the "punchdown" process (when the wire is first pushed into the V) or over time if the wire is moved.

* Screw-type - tightening the screw enough that the wire doesn't easily pull out can also weaken the wire. Occasionally, the screws themselves loosen up over time, causing intermittent connections.

* Connector block-type - In many respects, the weakest of the three. Often, the wire easily pulls out of the block. "Doubling" the wire by folding it over on itself before inserting it can help alleviate this.

 

We have tried, but not deployed RJ45-type because the connectors can be a pain to install properly and we are concerned that the environment above our ceilings will cause problems with the M-F RJ45 connections.

 

With all UTP systems, the installer has to be aware of the fragility of UTP wires. They break easily, especially after stripping with any metal tool (why I use my fingernails) and can't tolerate much bending back and forth. With careful installation practices, they are quite reliable. One huge advantage for large-scale applications is cable pulling. 25-pair or 50-pair trunk cables are far easier to pull and take up far less space than 25 or 50 lengths of coax.

[Numb-nuts 1]

The guy has a problem, I merely offered a solution that works for me. I am not saying that there isn't another way to do it, so what's with the criticism? You just carry on and do the job the way you want to, okay?

 

Some people on here just feel the need to criticize anything, I suppose it makes them feel superior or something

personally I just don't get it?

 

'Nit Picking' isn't a CCTV technique, it's the pastime of nerds.

[prinler 0]

This is getting really out of hand! There is no reason to flame anyone about this stuff. No need to get personal!

 

I know little of the CCTV world and im here to learn about ends and cable to deal with issues I feel shouldn't be happening. I thank you guys for your insight and years of experience.

 

Now CCTV is a very competitive market. I know personally I will quote high. If its not worth my time on any job then I refuse to do it. Some guys do sloppy fast work and I end up getting paid to come in at the end anyway. I speak from years of networking experience. It CCTV.

Play nice, I know I can't make a bnc to save my life... So no one feel bad.

[vector18 1]

We all have our opinions and personal preferences. I just think a certain member here is taking what I

say out of text. I'm not saying that baluns are unreliable and should never ever be used. I'm simply

saying that they have a more chance of failing over bnc's and if a DIY'er wants to install his own cctv system,

than he/she should absolutely use coax with bnc's. The DIY'er is not going to be stocking wire on his truck,

is not going to be upgrading to IP in the near future, and will most likely try to save money and buy cheap

baluns and will experience problems with them down the line because they did not terminate the wire properly,

the baluns are garbage, or they were affected by the outside elements.

 

There will be certain jobs that I will actually run siamese AND cat5e for future upgrades of either an IP system,

and PTZ camera, or a camera that has remote OSD built into it that can be controlled by the DVR. But my prices

cover the cost of running extra wire to each location and my customers are fully aware of what I am doing. But,

bottom line, my preference for longevity, reliability, and peace of mind, is having an analog camera connected

to a DVR with a Coaxial cable with 2 compression bnc's. I never have to worry if the wire is not in the balun correctly, or in time it doesn't make a good connection, or the COIL in the balun goes bad, or anything at all

that will make the balun fail as I read over and over in this forum and other cctv forums of issues with baluns.

I never read of people saying that they have bought a cheap bnc and it's causing lines in the picture! Chances are if they have a bnc and there are lines in the picture, than they did not strip the wire properly.

[prinler 0]

Ok, my install went ok. I half expected after the hell i put my cat5 threw not to work. I crimped my cat5 connectors and no matter how i wiggle, scrape, jiggle... It only works in the perfect position. I wrap it up and nothing works. I poke and poke till they all are on and then seal the box and pray they stay? Pshhh, I THINK NOT! Im very very very disappointed. These baluns absolutely blow chunks! I took your recommendations and picked up 6 pairs of a screw type with nothing fancy and it was effortless. No matter how i wiggle the cable there is NO loss of signal. I cant even get that with Coax!

 

My vote is cat5 all the way!

[Numb-nuts 1]

Until recently I couldn't fit a RJ45 plug to save my life, I bought a100 plugs and kept every scrap of cat5 I could and practiced. I watched videos on Youtube, and practiced some more. Now I find them very easy to use and it's empowering.

 

I find the cheaper the plugs, the more likely they are to crimp well to both solid and stranded core cables although technically we shouldn't use the same plugs for both.

 

You will find BNCs even easier to learn, but remember before crimping the center pin make sure it is properly seated to the dialectric (polythene inner).Don't forget to put the relief boot and ferrule on before trimming the cable ( we have all done that at least once I think? ).

[dustmop 0]

You will find BNCs even easier to learn, but remember before crimping the center pin make sure it is properly seated to the dialectric (polythene inner).Don't forget to put the relief boot and ferrule on before trimming the cable ( we have all done that at least once I think? ).

 

Once? I think I've done it at least 100 times in the last 5 years. I even still make the "ah **** I forgot the strain relief boot, I'm a moron" mistake when I do fiber optic terminations from time to time.

[the toss 0]

You will find BNCs even easier to learn, but remember before crimping the center pin make sure it is properly seated to the dialectric (polythene inner).Don't forget to put the relief boot and ferrule on before trimming the cable ( we have all done that at least once I think? ).

 

THE most important part of BNC terminating is ensuring you get the centre pin to "lock" in when you insert it in the outer body. Most people think that the crimping of the ferrule is what holds the whole thing together but they are only half right.

This is the most common problem I come across & I refer to it as the Mathew Technique after the installer who spent 15 years of doing it wrong. You would wonder why he didn't bother to find out why most of his coaxes, complete with pin, would pull out of the BNC with just a little tug.

[Numb-nuts 1]

You will find BNCs even easier to learn, but remember before crimping the center pin make sure it is properly seated to the dialectric (polythene inner).Don't forget to put the relief boot and ferrule on before trimming the cable ( we have all done that at least once I think? ).

 

THE most important part of BNC terminating is ensuring you get the centre pin to "lock" in when you insert it in the outer body. Most people think that the crimping of the ferrule is what holds the whole thing together but they are only half right.

This is the most common problem I come across & I refer to it as the Mathew Technique after the installer who spent 15 years of doing it wrong. You would wonder why he didn't bother to find out why most of his coaxes, complete with pin, would pull out of the BNC with just a little tug.

 

 

He's quite right of course, the center pin MUST lock in to the body of the plug before any attempt is made to crimp the ferrule. I realize that many BNCs that I am called out to replace have this error. Not my own I should add.

 

Someone said that everyone has their own way of doing things, I agree and who is to say whats right and wrong?

If it works for you then it's what you should do provided you are not unsure of your technique.

I know that most installers simply clamp CAT5 into screw down terminals, it doesn't work well for me so I looked for another way to get a connection with integrity. I would be failing in my duty to my clients if I wasn't satisfied with my final results. having to tell a client they should not move anything in my humble opinion just isn't acceptable.

By all means everyone, do what works for you.

[prinler 0]

As a final update i tossed the cat5 baluns for the cheap smash type baluns. I simply fold over to make a loop and insert the loop into the balun. Works flawlessly. I had my doubts but it works well. I have done 3 more installs for friends and family and and find that i can place the balun in a small outdoor junction box and it its safe from kids and covering the unsightly wires. Pull and tug and i get no fuzzy or lost connections. NOTHING feels better then doing a job and getting to the DVR, hooking up the bnc and seeing perfect picture! You look like you know what your doing.

 

BNC are similer to the TNC connectors i install at work for RF. I am very good at doing them but the crimp tool for bnc (quality, if you call kline quality) was more expensive then the cat5 crimper i already had.

 

Cat5? Recently in my own house i upgraded to 1 speco intensifier 3. I love the camera! My DVR is a 16CH Everfocus and basically said what the heck, lets see if i can piggy back 1 more video signal over the extra paid on the cat6 already run. Sure enough, worked perfectly. I would love to see someone who uses coax to do that! I could technically run 3 cameras if i was willing to give up my doubled up power wires.

 

Sorry to ramble, you guys know all this already.

 

CHEERS~

 

Prinler