Preschool security design

[mike.strong11 0]

Hello Guys,

 

This is my first post so please be kind!

 

I have a preschool (its about 5,000 square feet building) and I need to implement a security system.

 

1. Do you guys think I should go with CCTV or IP camera system?

2. I need at least 4 cameras but 8 would be nice, what do you guys think about sony, samsung, nuvico or cantek cameras?

3. I found this system very affordable and it's seams to be well priced (http://www.123securityproducts.com/samsung4-600kit.html)

4. What do you think about this one: http://www.123securityproducts.com/snfinecocamu.html ?

5. and this one : http://www.123securityproducts.com/snccs11.html

 

I am a big fan of Sony....

 

6. If i want to use CCTV can I use any DVR? H.264 PREFERRED....

7. Can I use 8 IP cameras and connect it to a modem from modem to computer?

 

I know it's a lot but any help is appreciated...

Do you guys know anything about 123 security?

 

THANKS A LOT!

[TipoFloe 0]

Hello Guys,

 

This is my first post so please be kind!

 

I have a preschool (its about 5,000 square feet building) and I need to implement a security system.

 

1. Do you guys think I should go with CCTV or IP camera system?

2. I need at least 4 cameras but 8 would be nice, what do you guys think about sony, samsung, nuvico or cantek cameras?

3. I found this system very affordable and it's seams to be well priced (http://www.123securityproducts.com/samsung4-600kit.html)

4. What do you think about this one: http://www.123securityproducts.com/snfinecocamu.html ?

5. and this one : http://www.123securityproducts.com/snccs11.html

 

I am a big fan of Sony....

 

6. If i want to use CCTV can I use any DVR? H.264 PREFERRED....

7. Can I use 8 IP cameras and connect it to a modem from modem to computer?

 

I know it's a lot but any help is appreciated...

Do you guys know anything about 123 security?

 

THANKS A LOT!

 

1. What is your (client's) budget? If you're only considering 4 or 8 channel system, I guess they are only doing wide angle monitoring?

2. Sony only makes IP cameras now, quite pricey, Samsung, Nuvico are well established brand, and Cantek is a house brand of 123securityproducts.com.

6. All DVRs should now be using H.264 compression. H.264 compression was introduced into the security market in 2008 and is now a common compression technology for IP cameras, DVRs and NVRs. NVRs will also support MPEG4 and JPEG, but that's to accommodate older IP cameras and video servers. Any DVR that is still using MPEG4 was designed pre-2007 and should be avoided.

7. 8 IP cameras should go through a switch first, and then to a modem (or modem/router) where your PC will connect locally.

 

123 Security is one of the biggest distributors in CCTV industry based in New York City. If I am not mistaken they've been around over 50 years and is a solid company.

 

Good Luck!

[jxk716 0]

What do you want the cameras to cover? Outside? Inside or both? If inside what exactly?

 

One poster,a while ago, needed a system where parents could remotly view the cameras to see how Junior is behaving. Not sure if you need that (or if it is legal in your area) but would require a decent internet upload speed. A lot of DVRs allow you to limit the user accounts so that only certain cameras can be viewed

 

...And yes, we need an idea of what the budget is

 

For Ip Cams, one of the moderators here mentioned Cisco SF 302-08P PoE switch. I purchased and it has worked really well - Very little set-up involved on the switch and PoE makes life easier because of less connections.

 

To get a better idea of images from MP cams check out this post: http://www.cctvforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=11322

Edited July 20, 2012 by Guest

[tomcctv 190]

I have a preschool (its about 5,000 square feet building) and I need to implement a security system.

 

 

Hi. before a lot of work is put into your install or homework it is best to start with the regulations in your state.

 

state laws regulate video surveillance in daycare centers so that is your best place to start

[mike.strong11 0]

Thanks for all the info!

 

I am in the process of finalizing the law requirements for the recording in the daycare center, I am located in Texas. But so far no problems, some preschools have cameras in every room....(excluding bathrooms)

 

Here is some more info:

I would like to stay around $1,500 for the entire system.

I would like to cover inside hallways, outside - playground,front door, parking, and maybe classrooms.

The building in 6,600 square feet(the first 5,000 SQ building did not work out), the entire land (including parking and playground ) is about 0.80 acres.

I love your suggestion about Cisco SF 302-08P PoE switc, and I had a great experience with Cisco in general.

Thanks for sharing the MP cams.

 

I got some more questions:

1. What do you guys think about this set up: http://www.samsungsv.com/Model/Detail/11/Samsung-SDE-5001N-16-Channel-DVR-Security-System

I found in in Costco for $900....

 

2. I did my own custom set up and it would look like this:

It would be an IP setup, with following Sony cameras(123 security has a great deal on them).

4 : http://www.123securityproducts.com/snccs11.html they would be inside of a classrooms.

2 : http://www.123securityproducts.com/snccm120.html would be in a hallway

2 or 4:http://www.123securityproducts.com/snfinecocamu.html they would be outside OR for the outside http://www.123securityproducts.com/snc-ch110-s.html OR http://www.123securityproducts.com/wv-sp105.html

 

Actually not sure if I could mix Panasonic in there....

 

Here comes my biggest concern....

 

I am not sure about NVR....

 

I am thinking about this one: http://www.123securityproducts.com/vt-ipsn16m.html I would put in my own 2 TB drive.

 

What do you guys think? Any NVR suggestions? ( I would like to get NVR for about $400 -700)

 

Also how does that Samsung for Costco compare to this system?

Samsung has 520 TVL....can that compare to SD: 640 x 480 IP camera?

 

Now another thing that's in my head it's Bosch NBS http://www.123securityproducts.com/nbc-255-p.html , just sounds amazing.....what do you guys think!

 

Some additional info,

 

I would have at least 20 -30 mbps with a static IP.

 

I know this is a ton of questions,if you guys got some time to answer help is very very much appreciated.

 

Thanks!

[jxk716 0]

...and more questions for you

 

What about infrastructure? Is wiring in place? If not will you be installing the system? I ask because you do not mention it above and your price range is a bit too low for your goals. For example, under that price range, take a look at CNB VCM 24VF cameras. I have them at my home/work and have no complaints. Don't get me wrong - they need light at night.

 

If you have not considered wiring definitely go with Cat5 and baluns (for analog cams) and you'll have what you need for IP down the line. Have you considered a hybrid DVR - you can get analog cams now and good MP when the budget allows. We use a 3xLogic hybrid and it is a great system - not cheap though!

 

 

IP cameras need light at night - what is the lighting situation where you want the outdoor cams installed.

 

Don't limit yourself to Sony/Panasonic - there are a lot of options out there and those brands usually do have have the same quality parts as their TVs or other electronics. Cross reference your choices in searches here and STAY AWAY FROM BOX STORES!!! Heck, you can probably type "box stores" in a search here and see for yourself!

 

Keep in mind I am only a DIYer but write with experience from both actual installs and reading this forum. Other pros/installers will chime in - good luck!

[mike.strong11 0]

Wiring is not in place, I will instal it.( This would be my first instillation ). I am actually a CPA/JD but when I was in college I did a lot of network installations, I use to work for saleforce so I am good to go in that department...I was born in EU so I saw a looottttt of Mobotix camera back in Europe...

 

You think that CNB VCM 24VF system would be better than Samsung for Costco?

 

Thanks for a hybrid suggestion...Bit to pricey.

 

Dahua analog DVR --> Never heard of them I will do some research. Would you used them?

 

The parking lot of my preschool is located on the very busy street so there is a plenty of light street light ( highway ones). BUT the playground is the problem, it's bit dark at night and I need at least 2 cameras in there (in case the child get injured ) I need to see clearly, also the distance would be around 50feet...

 

LOL yes I stared my search in the box stores because they have a lot of choices, but I will start to narrow my search soon and I hope I will find the perfect fix

 

I was looking at the pictures on the forum and it looks like MOBOTIX, AVIGILON and AXIS are just amazing....But I cant find them for less than $400 -600 per camera.

 

Also it looks like ACTI is a good affordable on( I love product form Taiwan). What do you think?

Alos some people love KT&C....Do you have any experience with them?

One member used some no name camera but he did use Fujinon YV2.8x2 and picture just looks amazing....

 

Just a bit confused about that one...

 

btw

 

thanks for a speedy response

Edited July 21, 2012 by Guest

[bike_rider 0]

Simple question you have not answered: Why are you putting in a system? Is this for after-hours security? During the day "what's going on" images? I-want-to-ID-people-as-they-move-about?

 

Give us a use case or three.

[mike.strong11 0]

Cool...

 

Ok....

 

1. I want to avoid any child abuse or neglect by a caregiver, in case it happened I would have an evidence. So I would want to have a video recording of a classroom.

 

2. If the kid gets injured in the playground I want to be able to explained to a parent, and I want to make sure that's not teachers neglect(teacher was on the phone)

 

3. I want to be able to record the classroom( so yes what's going on)

 

4. Parking lot - I need to be able to see who is parked there

 

5. Now security (brake in) in not really the 1st priority of a system, but playground would need to have a good IR camera....

 

6. The crime is not an issue, maybe kids horsing around the parking lot( so playground and parking lot each maybe 2 cameras of total of 4)

 

7. Other than that I would need to see hallways (if not not a big deal) basic cam is good for this

 

8. I am not sure if I implement IP cam system would 30mbps be enough

 

9. Also I am not sure if 700 TVL is comparable to maybe 1 meg IP cam...(prob not)

 

10. I love MOBOTIX, AVIGILON and AXIS but I just found the to be to expensive ( cheapest I can find $400 per cam

 

11. I was looking at the Costco Samsung system Samsung SDE-5001N 16 Channel DVR Security System and comparing it to CNB VCM-24VF. (I forgot no links sry)

 

12. I saw a lot of people love ACTI and KT&C price seams to be right, and some mebmer upgraded it with Fuji lens...

 

Thanks

[tomcctv 190]

Hi. for this type of install i would look at something better than kits.

 

the samsung you have listed is a plug and play unit and these give problems ...... you only need the power supply to go and full system is down. then you have other problems like adding extra cameras.

 

 

 

 

hybrids are not as expensive as you think. for carparks and play area a good MP camera will give better coverage than 1 or even 2 analog cameras

[jxk716 0]

Check this out regarding TV Lines and D1 http://www.cctvforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3064

 

You might need a 2MP camera for the playground. I have 2 types: Visix 2MP vandal dome from from 3xLogic and Vivotek (FD 8362 and IP 8362); I have no complaints about either. However all 3 are in the 600 - $700 range and the FOV is well lit.

[mike.strong11 0]

Any thoughts on this one Sony SNC-CM120?

 

Or this one Vivotek IP7160?

 

Or this one Panasonic WV-SP105 i-Pro HD?

 

Sony SNC-DM110 and this one for the inside....

 

This one has good spec but I am not sure : Dahua ESIP-MP2-DM1 Hi Def 2 MP MegaPixel Outdoor Mini Dome IP Camera.....

 

I guess my questions is: I would like to ge IP setup with 10 cameras( 6inside and 4 outside) for a less than $2,000....(NVR included)...

 

You guys have nay suggestions?

[tomcctv 190]

Hi. If your getting pms also about products . Then just be aware the dahua will not run 16 Sony 1.3 megapixel cameras.

[need2shave 0]

I've bought a number of the Dahua 2MP domes. I'd rate it one of the best bang for buck cameras I've seen yet.

[mike.strong11 0]

Would Dahua 2MP be superior to Sony 1.3 M? Or Samsung 1.3M?

[tomcctv 190]

Would Dahua 2MP be superior to Sony 1.3 M? Or Samsung 1.3M?

Hi which option are you choosing to record from nvr or PC and vms.

[nDAlk90 0]

The Dahua IPC-HDB3200C is a nice camera. I ordered a unit online to test and really like it. Its a small camera and is inexpensive. I should be upgrading my entire system to IP shortly. In the process now of running the cat5e as before I was using Rg59 Siamese...

 

Found them for under $200.00 online so how can you go wrong?

 

http://www.dahuasecurity.com/English/product_info.aspx?type=339&&css=0&&id=8

[mike.strong11 0]

Is Dahua IPC-HDB3200C made in Korea or China? You might be right for $200 not to shabby....

 

To answer you question about nvr or pc I still didn't decide....

 

I have a very fast desktop( i7 3770,16 gb ram, 1 tb drive (store), intel 520 120gb SSD for aps, intel 4000 graphic) so I could use this machine....i even got extra monitor....

 

or a good cheap nvr, but I guess my preference would be to save money and run it form my pc...

 

My internet speed is 30mbps...

 

I am looking at Sony SNC-DM110 Network Megapixel Minidome Camera with Dual Stream JPEG/MPEG-4 and PoE It's 1.2 M but it doesn't have h.264 format....

 

Once again thanks!!

 

I hope I will get some pictures up once I get something going....

[bike_rider 0]

Any thoughts on this one Sony SNC-CM120?

 

Or this one Vivotek IP7160?

 

Or this one Panasonic WV-SP105 i-Pro HD?

 

Sony SNC-DM110 and this one for the inside....

 

This one has good spec but I am not sure : Dahua IPC-HDB3200C Hi Def 2 MP MegaPixel Outdoor Mini Dome IP Camera.....

 

I guess my questions is: I would like to ge IP setup with 10 cameras( 6inside and 4 outside) for a less than $2,000....(NVR included)...

 

You guys have nay suggestions?

 

 

Tone back your goals or raise your budget. You are not going to get a system that is 100% of what you want for that kind of money.

 

The last thing you want to do is put in a camera, have something happen and then say "I wish I had better video of that". So, put in good cameras where you can.

 

If you are looking for coverage where there is not great lighting, you'll need Day/Night cameras. That means a removable IR cut filter. You'll have to learn about lens focal length and field of view. Google CCTV lens calculator and learn to use one. Otherwise you will buy a camera with a wide angle, when you need a telephoto (of course box cameras let you change the lens, while most domes do not).

 

Sony's DM series is about 4 years old. They are being sold at a super discount because they are beyond end of life. I have a Vivotek 7160. Surprisingly good for the price.

 

If you are covering "well lit" (whatever that means) areas in the day time, there is not reason to look at more expensive cameras. Most expensive cameras (like Sony's current cameras) are better in low light, or with back lighting (like covering an entrance door from the inside) or have more features. For basic clean images, something like the Dahua or Vivotek get the job done. The Vivotek's color isn't great and the picture can sometimes be seen to flicker slightly as it adjusts the exposure, but it works.

 

The speed of your internet connection does not matter because you will need to store the video on site. If you go the PC route, you will need to dedicate one machine to this. If you stick with one brand of camera, like ACTi or Vivotek (maybe Dahua too), you can use their software. People here have reported the ACTi software is quite good, but again you are limited to only their brand.

 

For box cameras you may need to buy new lenses. Make sure they are MP rated. It makes a big difference in image quality.

 

Based on a guess of risk levels, I suggest you cover what you can in order: Playground, parking lot & child pick up area, classrooms, hallways.

[mike.strong11 0]

Tone back your goals or raise your budget. You are not going to get a system that is 100% of what you want for that kind of money.

 

The last thing you want to do is put in a camera, have something happen and then say "I wish I had better video of that". So, put in good cameras where you can.

 

If you are looking for coverage where there is not great lighting, you'll need Day/Night cameras. That means a removable IR cut filter. You'll have to learn about lens focal length and field of view. Google CCTV lens calculator and learn to use one. Otherwise you will buy a camera with a wide angle, when you need a telephoto (of course box cameras let you change the lens, while most domes do not).

 

Sony's DM series is about 4 years old. They are being sold at a super discount because they are beyond end of life. I have a Vivotek 7160. Surprisingly good for the price.

 

If you are covering "well lit" (whatever that means) areas in the day time, there is not reason to look at more expensive cameras. Most expensive cameras (like Sony's current cameras) are better in low light, or with back lighting (like covering an entrance door from the inside) or have more features. For basic clean images, something like the Dahua or Vivotek get the job done. The Vivotek's color isn't great and the picture can sometimes be seen to flicker slightly as it adjusts the exposure, but it works.

 

The speed of your internet connection does not matter because you will need to store the video on site. If you go the PC route, you will need to dedicate one machine to this. If you stick with one brand of camera, like ACTi or Vivotek (maybe Dahua too), you can use their software. People here have reported the ACTi software is quite good, but again you are limited to only their brand.

 

For box cameras you may need to buy new lenses. Make sure they are MP rated. It makes a big difference in image quality.

 

Based on a guess of risk levels, I suggest you cover what you can in order: Playground, parking lot & child pick up area, classrooms, hallways.

 

 

Thanks for some great info!

 

I was just looking at CCTV lens calculator and Vivotek IP7160.

 

Vivotek IP7160 looks very good, are you using nvr? If you are using PC what are the specs?

 

Also it looks like I will have to increase my budged to $3,000 - 3,500 because if I do this I wanna do it right.

 

Does Vivotek IP7160 come with software? It's very nice that you can ever plug SDHC card in it...Would I have to change lens on this one? Would you recommended Fuji lens or...?

[bike_rider 0]

 

Thanks for some great info!

 

I was just looking at CCTV lens calculator and Vivotek IP7160.

 

Vivotek IP7160 looks very good, are you using nvr? If you are using PC what are the specs?

 

Also it looks like I will have to increase my budged to $3,000 - 3,500 because if I do this I wanna do it right.

 

Does Vivotek IP7160 come with software? It's very nice that you can ever plug SDHC card in it...Would I have to change lens on this one? Would you recommended Fuji lens or...?

 

I use Blue Iris software on laptop. The laptop is a quad core i7. It wasn't that expensive ($1,000) because it is not a high end laptop - heavy, mediocre screen, so-so battery life, but I don't care about those things so it works very well for me. I know that I have pelenty of CPU capacity as I move toward more MP cameras.

 

Local storage on the camera can be interesting, but I think you will need more storage than you can get on a 32 G card. for your stated purposes, i'd want 60 days of 6 hours per day of storage on the class rooms and 14 days, motion based on the other items. (Qucik on line calculation at 12 fps says that's about 1.5 TB) That's going to add up fast. One nice thing about PC based solutions is adding storage space is easy. Blue iris will not let you select retention periods per camera, so it may not work for you. i don't know if the Vivoteks come with software. I assume they do, but I already had picked my solution.

 

Fujinon, Tamron, Tokina, Computar. Those are the lens companies I'd look at. I did stick a "cheap" non-MP lens on the 7160. I have another lens on order. When that comes in I will compare the various lenses I have floating around, but that's probalby 2 weeks away.

[mike.strong11 0]

Local storage on the camera can be interesting, but I think you will need more storage than you can get on a 32 G card. for your stated purposes, i'd want 60 days of 6 hours per day of storage on the class rooms and 14 days, motion based on the other items. (Qucik on line calculation at 12 fps says that's about 1.5 TB) That's going to add up fast. One nice thing about PC based solutions is adding storage space is easy. Blue iris will not let you select retention periods per camera, so it may not work for you. i don't know if the Vivoteks come with software. I assume they do, but I already had picked my solution.

 

Fujinon, Tamron, Tokina, Computar. Those are the lens companies I'd look at. I did stick a "cheap" non-MP lens on the 7160. I have another lens on order. When that comes in I will compare the various lenses I have floating around, but that's probalby 2 weeks away.

 

 

I will check that software. Thanks a lot.

 

I found that you need at least 842 gb and 7.24 mbps to run 10 megapixel cameras with h.264 at medium quality for 12 hours per day and 5 fps per cam --> if you want to keep recording for 14 days....

 

Now I use some backup solutions that lets you have unlimited storage, but that's a lot of GB....

Vivoteks comes with software but I am not sure about the quality of the company, I was also looking at ATCI, Sony ect...

 

Everywhere I go business use the following: Panasonic, Bosch,Samsung, JVC, Pelco, Honywell....never saw any Vivoteks, and mostly I see analog cameras.... A lot of places in Texas love Bosch

 

Not sure if I need to go IP anymore....

 

16 - 1.0 MP camera, streaming at 30 FPS, will require just over 8 TERABYTES of storage for ONE WEEK---> well I would stream at 4-5 fps....

 

16 - 550 TVL Analog cameras at 30 FPS running 4CIF, will only require 2.5 TB of storage for the same week. ----> I am not sure If the quality is adequate...

 

16 Analog cameras, running 30 FPS at 4 CIF will need 16.48 Mbps of bandwidth ONLY if it is streaming the video OUT to a client user

 

The 16 1.0 MP cameras, 30 FPS will REQUIRE 83.20 Mbps PLUS another 83.2 Mbps if you desire to stream it out to a client application.

 

At this point I am not sure to go analog or Ip anymore....

 

My steaming would be 4-5fps....

 

Any help is appreciated....

[bike_rider 0]

10-12 fps is good enough for most things. 5 fps might be ok, but I wouldn't recommend it - you would need to try it to see how it looks for you.

 

D1 (analog) images covering a room are going to be low rez for things on the far side of the room. In your case you may be able to ID kids based on low rez images because you are working from a limited pool of "suspects". Analog means either a DVR or a capture card in a PC. In that case, DVR is the better solution.

 

You need to decide how good of an image is sufficient. Google the term "pixels per foot". Try this - take a digital picture of an area you want to cover. Resize it down to 1MP and down to 704 x 480 (D1). See which one gives you a useable image. If you can get what you want with D1, go for it. I have a handful of installed analog cameras that cover doors and gates - they work well for a narrow field of view. D1 would be useless for your playground.

 

Commercial installations are very old school and have much bigger budgets than you do. Vivotek and ACTi are definitely not Tier 1 companies, but they offer good value.

[mike.strong11 0]

Man you helped me a lot, I own a a drink...

 

Let me do some more digging and I will let you know.

 

But I looks like IP is a must of playground and parking lot....

 

You got any suggestions for those?

[bike_rider 0]

Happy to help. If you decide that analog works for your indoor needs, then a hybrid DVR might be the right solution.

 

I have an ACTi camera coming in "soon" so i'll be able to compare it against my Vivotek and my Sony. Since your playground need is day time only (you will not have enough light at night to be useful) a day time only camera will save money there. The TCM-1111 looks very interesting (cheapish!), but the lens size might not work for you. That's where you need to use a lens calculator.