Can you have too much light?

[buellwinkle 0]

Based on Sean's recomendation, I picked up an IR illuminator from a seller in China. I took a snapshot from the regular image off an ACTi TCM-1231 below and below that with the external illuminator. Not bad for $40. The amount of noise dropped to almost nothing, the contrast came up, areas barely visible are now clearly lit. Even the grass has texture now where it was just a blob before. Also the motion detection is more accurate as the noise is not intefering with it. You have to power the illuminator with 12V and it has a daylight sensor so it turns on/off automatically. Uses 8 IR LEDs.

 

 

[shockwave199 0]

Does that regular light fixture on the wall work and if so, can we see how it looks with just that on as a comparsion?

[vector18 1]

I suggest adjusting the camera so you do not see so much wall. The IR's on the camera itself is only

lighting up the wall. If you can turn the camera to the left off the wall, you will get more coverage of over the fence and

the IR's from the camera will most likely do the job of your 40.00 illuminator.

[bike_rider 0]

I'd say that yes, you can have too much light. Notice how the bushes are washed out. I'd consider bouncing the IR off the wall to diffuse it. It would also give you better off axis light.

[buellwinkle 0]

I know I have to adjust the focal length to make the shot tighter, but there's no way I found to take the light off the wall. The camera is mounted on the wall with a wall mount that stands it out about 8" from the wall, almost parallel to the line of sight. That's why this is a difficult shot with the built in illuminators. If I point it more to the left to avoid the wall, then I avoid the shot I want of the door that is there and the rear fence. Maybe put a cheap day/night dome there without any illuminators and use the external illluminator tucked in a flower pot.

 

Yes, that one bush is blown out, but everything else looks good and not blown out. I think it's that green reflects the IR more than other colors, why the grass looks like snow. Not sure I can do anything about that, as long as the intruder is not green.

 

If I remember, I'll take a snapshot with the porch light only, but Ive done that in the past. First it annoys the neighbors as it shines in their bedroom, so can't go there. What happens is that it creates a pool of light right by the door, but does not lightup the rear fence area by the patio table, it makes it look even darker as the camera adjusts for the bright spot.

[shockwave199 0]

Of course I always suggest the obvious- put yourself out there in the important parts of the shot and see how a human looks. Trees, bushes, grass or fences don't rob you. How they look in the shot doesn't much matter.

[buellwinkle 0]

I tried the illuminator with the ACTi TCM-7811 but it didn't make as dramatic a difference. My guess is because the 7811 IR illuminators have about twice the effective range of the 1231 and better low light capability, so not as big a gain.

 

I did try it with me in the picture. My shirt came out very bright, but my face was better lit, again, not a huge difference because I did it with the 7811 but the IR illuminator was not so powerful as to blow out my face like it did that one bush.

 

Here's what it looks like.

 

 

Here's a place on Amazon that sells them - http://www.amazon.com/OKEBA-vision-Infrared-Illuminator-Standard/dp/B007SSU0L6

 

Also find them all over eBay like here - http://www.ebay.com/itm/8-LED-16W-263-FT-45-Night-Vision-IR-Infrared-Illuminator-Light-For-CCTV-Camera-/261035321234?pt=US_Surveillance_Gadgets&hash=item3cc6eae792

[rayt 0]

i bought 14 raytec raymax fusion 50's pretty cheap, hope i dont have too much light, all 30 degree angle, modified one to 120 degree angle already. Lets see how well these work when i get them up and running.

[shockwave199 0]

I think it's that green reflects the IR more than other colors, why the grass looks like snow. Not sure I can do anything about that, as long as the intruder is not green.

 

 

Yep- all my greenery does the same thing in this little demo I did of how incremetal IR from the ptz is helpful as well.

 

v2F6jVzAj9M

[fran 0]

The outdoor ip camera maybe need more Ir leds, such as 18 or 30 ir leds, Φ8.

[buellwinkle 0]

I don't think the quantity of LED's matter as much as the quality. I use landscape LED's that are 2 watts that are more powerful that older tech that used 12 LEDs with very weak LEDs were all 12 used 1/2 watt.

 

The 8 LEDs in the IR Illuminator I got were huge, each LED looked like an old fashioned flashlight bulb in size. It's rated for 80m, or about 260' at 45 degrees which is better than most IR LED's built into cameras that have 10-20 LED's rated at 20m or about 65'.

[Razer_SE 0]

Thanks for the shots, I may get a couple to try in a situation I'm running into now at a new location. This may doe exactly what I need it it, and it's indoor so weather will not be an issue.

 

I'm getting recording all night with a KCM-5211E because there is NO other light besides the built in IR until someone keys in and the lights come on. I have all the light I need then, but if no one comes in then I'm recording all night. This would fix that nicely I bet!

[shockwave199 0]

I don't think the quantity of LED's matter as much as the quality. I use landscape LED's that are 2 watts that are more powerful that older tech that used 12 LEDs with very weak LEDs were all 12 used 1/2 watt.

 

The 8 LEDs in the IR Illuminator I got were huge, each LED looked like an old fashioned flashlight bulb in size. It's rated for 80m, or about 260' at 45 degrees which is better than most IR LED's built into cameras that have 10-20 LED's rated at 20m or about 65'.

Yes. On the ptz in the vid, there are only eight as well. As seen, they do more than any 30 to even 84 led array in other cameras can. Not even a contest. Your fixture will certainly provide plenty of additional light, as we can see.

[buellwinkle 0]

Razer_se,

 

I attended a road show where Raytec presented and what they say is having additional IR lighting preserves a lot of disk space because of false motion detects caused by noise as well as noisy video makes for larger files. The camera will adjust for extra light, so no reason not to have more and I know the KCM-5211E requires a lot of light, so this will help big time and for $40, how can you go wrong.

[thewireguys 3]

i bought 14 raytec raymax fusion 50's pretty cheap, hope i dont have too much light, all 30 degree angle, modified one to 120 degree angle already. Lets see how well these work when i get them up and running.

 

You will not have a issue with Raytec because they have a adjustable output.

[Razer_SE 0]

buellwinkle, I just ordered three for testing actually. I agree, for the price I can't go wrong really.

 

That's my biggest issue at a lot of my locations, noise at night causing false motion. Normally the worst on my ACTi 5211 cameras as they do need a lot of light as you mentioned. My other 1mp cameras do not seem to have the issue. I even adjusted around it on my Acti 1111 cameras, but it's rough on the 5211s. Recording all night at 4mp is not my favorite thing in the world....

 

 

Thanks again for the links and images, much appreciated!

[kifaru 0]

Do IR illuminators need to be mounted close the to the cameras? Or do you just need to mount it where you can & aim it to the general area you would like to illuminate?

[buellwinkle 0]

As a photographer, if you only have one light source, you want it to be 30-45 degrees to the subject from the camera. Having it straight on from the camera angle washes out face details and reflects of things like license plates and washes them out. Having it at an angle causes shadows from the nose and eyes and highlights the details in your subjects face. Also consider having it lower, as caps create shadows when lit from above and hides faces.

 

Like in this drawing but instead of the studio or flash light, it would be your IR light.

 

[40th Floor 0]

Why go Ir when you can go visible? Bad guys like the dark. Make it light. Better to scare them away than capture ghost-like images of them carting your stuff away. There is a backyard light already there. And it's off. LED is not the way to go; much better light-for-the-buck with newer CFLs. Get a dusk-to-dawn. Lasts three years. 65 W gets you a lot of light. And no ghosts.

[vector18 1]

I have seen cameras in my distributor that actually light up with LEDS when there is motion. It helps the picture

at night and acts as a motion light for deterrence. They actually only think it's a motion light rather than a cctv camera. It's practical in certain situations, not all of them though. I'll search around and see if I can find one that

does that.

 

http://www.cctv-information.co.uk/i/Why_LED_lighting_is_the_best_technology_to_use_with_CCTV

[vector18 1]

[shockwave199 0]

Yeah, but when there is no motion there is almost no picture. The question is, can you have too much light. You sure can. And it's best to plan where you install the camera and how you'll aim it when you're near exterior light fixtures. Every location is different. I find both exterior light and IR useful, be it alone or in combination. But it takes planning to get the best results so the picture isn't ruined by too much light...or too little.

[buellwinkle 0]

For some people, white light is the way to go as it's less expensive. For me it's not, I'm in suburbia and my neighbors complain if I leave lights on. As for comperable light output out of a CFL, I can tell you that our 15W CFL at that location does not produce anywhere near the amount of light as the IR LEDs. Even indoors, we switched out CFL flood lights for LEDs of similar wattage and the light output difference is dramatic.

 

As for motion detect lights, there's a few issues with that. First you can't use video motion detection if there's nothing to see, so you need to get external PIR motion detectors, not expensive, but additional complexity. Next, most cameras will not react fast enough to the light change and what happens is the first second or two of video will be washed out and that's when the person walks past the camera. Lastly, CFLs and motion detection don't work well together as it takes time for the CFL to reach full brightness.

[mike_va 0]

Generally, CFL cannot match IR since IR is a tighter angle usually 30-60 degree output which helps greatly. PAR CFL's aren't bad, we use one out back. Have it switched with an X10 timer, X10 pro switch.

 

We have normal CFL's on the side of garage 2x ~30W ea to get our 3MP camera enough light, 8W white LED on side garage for some analog cams, Raytec and Bosch elsewhere. Would prefer to run IR on the front, just because I can get near 100 yards with my units, but believe it or not the red glow was actually attracting people out checking car doors at night up our driveway...we garage our cars...someday will build something truly covert but unfortunately the only LED's that are truly covert and don't glow are the 940nm 5mm units which don't put out that much...

[Razer_SE 0]

In my case I'll be using these to get enough light so that I'm not constantly recording when in night mode. I do have visible light via motion, but unless it is on I get motion all night recorded because of the lack of light. Adding these will keep two 4mp cameras from recording all night long, and I'll still have natural light when motion is detected. Perfect combination, and is sure going to save me some hard drive space!

 

I have a couple of locations that I'll be using these like the OP too though as a trial, where there is not enough light and I need to keep the camera from recording all night long again. Should be a nice test as I've tried everything else to no avail.