Cam Recommendation: Changable Lenses, 1280x1024 minimum?

[PeteCress 0]

I've got an IP cam here: http://xcam.zapto.org:8080/image/cam3

(that's just a single still frame...)

 

The purpose is to allow windsurfers to see if other sailors are

planing or not.

 

Right now, it's kind if iffey.... needs tb zoomed some more.

 

Current cam supports zooming and is zoomed to 9mm. I'm shopping

for another cam: one with fewer features, but replaceable lens.

 

I would like to restrict the frame to the area between the hotel

on the left and the green flag in the middle of the frame.

 

Eyeballing it, that seems like a 50% reduction in field.

 

I'm guessing a 20mm lens would do it, but want tb able to experiment if it does not.

 

Does not have tb IP-66 bc I'm willing to put it into an enclosure.

 

Recommendations?

[buellwinkle 0]

What's the budget? The ACTi TCM-4201 is reasonably priced, the resolution you seek, interchangable CS mount lenses (comes with like a 4mm). This is an indoor cam, so you'll need to put in some sort of enclosure to use it outdoors.

[MaxIcon 0]

If you don't mind used, IQEye cams take CS mount lenses for maximum flexibility, and can be pretty affordable. You can get them with sturdy, heavy duty external enclosures as well. They take manual iris lenses.

 

There's a fair assortment of them on ebay now, many without a lens. Most CCTV cams don't come with lenses in the longer zoom you want, so buying one separately may be a good bet. C mount lenses can be fairly cheap, and just need an inexpensive adapter to work on a CS camera.

 

You'll want to watch the frame rates, as many of the older models only go to 15-20 fps, but I'd guess that may not matter for a surfcam.

 

The one potential problem with long zoom lenses is that they're... long! I have a couple of 8-48mm 1/2" zooms, and both of them are big and bulky, so they wouldn't fit in my IQEye enclosure, or many standard enclosures, depending on the size of the cam. It would work well for testing and finding a good zoom setting, though.

 

There's a Rainbow H6X8-II 8-48mm F1.0 on ebay that's ending in a few hours and may go cheap if there's no bidding war, but it's one of these big, bulky lenses.

[PeteCress 0]

IQEye cams take CS mount lenses for maximum flexibility, and can be pretty affordable. You can get them with sturdy, heavy duty external enclosures as well. They take manual iris lenses.

The distinction between Manual and Auto Iris lenses is starting to dawn on me.

 

But it would seem that, for an Auto Iris lens I would need a cam that has whatever it takes to drive it.

 

But do I really want Auto? I'm thinking maybe not bc this cam is only useful during daylight hours and it seems possible that a single manual setting might accomodate the variation in light between full sun and overcast - if not with professional photographic quality, at least well enough to see if windsurfers are planing or not.

 

Have I got it right so far?

 

Either way, what am I missing here:

 

Auto-Iris $60: http://tinyurl.com/c59czl4

 

Manual-Iris $165: http://tinyurl.com/c97h7gd

 

Seems backwards on the face of it - which tells me that there's something I don't know.

[Soundy 1]

Main thing I can see is that the cheaper one is a video iris type, which most cameras don't support. With video iris, the camera mainly just provides power to the lens, and the lens itself controls the iris. Video iris used to be a lot more common, but not so much these days.

 

Most cameras that do auto-iris these days, use a DC iris lens, where the camera controls the iris.

 

One other consideration: for best clarity, you want to use a megapixel-rated lens, preferably one rated for the camera resolution you're using (ie. minimum 1.3MP lens if you're using a 1.3MP camera).

[buellwinkle 0]

What Soundy is saying is you need a lens matched to the sensor size. For example, if you get a camera with a 1/2" sensor you need a lens rated for a 1/2" sensor and one made for a 1/4" sensor may vignette or have other issues.

 

Here's the dealio about auto-iris. In the past, most camera used CCD sensors. These were more prone to damages from the sun's rays than more modern CMOS. The auto-iris limits the amount of sun that enters the lens/sensor in bright sunlight so they last longer. For example, I had a CCD camera without auto-iris in the sun, lasted 2 years before the sensor burned out. We have Mobotix cameras out in full sun, no auto-iris for over 3 years and they are fine. My ACTi cameras around my home are out in full sun, no damage after 3 years without auto-iris. My only auto-iris camera is one with a CCD sensor.

[Soundy 1]

What Soundy is saying is you need a lens matched to the sensor size. For example, if you get a camera with a 1/2" sensor you need a lens rated for a 1/2" sensor and one made for a 1/4" sensor may vignette or have other issues.

That's not actually what I was saying... sensor size is a different issue. And as long as the lens is rated for a LARGER sensor than the camera has (eg. a 1/2" lens on a 1/3" sensor), you should have no problems.

 

I was talking about the "resolving power" of the lens - its ability to render detail. Or in short: the quality of the optics. Typical CCTV lenses tend not to be the highest-grade optics, because they don't need to be with the low-resolution cameras. As you get into higher resolution cameras, any flaws, software, aberrations, etc. in the lens become more apparent... and so you need a better lens to get the full benefit of the camera.

[buellwinkle 0]

I agree that better glass will get you better results, I'm just not sure that a lens touting "mega pixel or HD" isn't just marketing hype. Stick a known brand like Fujinon, Pentax, Bosch, Tamron or a lens from the camera manufacturer and you'll be OK.

[Soundy 1]

I agree that better glass will get you better results, I'm just not sure that a lens touting "mega pixel or HD" isn't just marketing hype.

It's not.

 

Stick a known brand like Fujinon, Pentax, Bosch, Tamron or a lens from the camera manufacturer and you'll be OK.

All of those make MP-specific lenses...

[mike_va 0]

The MP lenses are worth the expense, even more so with a 3MP camera.

 

I've tried one standard lens that looked good on a MP camera, the rest looked so-so.

 

Lenses really need looking at carefully. Especially if using with IR, some make the image look like it does not have as much contrast.

 

I think the average person gets concerned about megapixels, whereas crappy lenses, firmware/hardware issues and limited dynamic range (and/or poor exposure) should also be considerations. Similar to a very good DSLR vs. a cheap point and shoot...

[Soundy 1]

The MP lenses are worth the expense, even more so with a 3MP camera.

 

I've tried one standard lens that looked good on a MP camera, the rest looked so-so.

And in fairness, a high-quality "SD" lens will probably give better results (up to a point) than a really cheap "MP" lens. But then, that's the case with cameras themselves as well.

 

Lenses really need looking at carefully. Especially if using with IR, some make the image look like it does not have as much contrast.

IR is a whole other matter too, as IR light focuses differently than visible light, and if you have a TDN camera, you really want a IR-corrected lens that has optics designed to compensate for this fact. Without, you'll often find the image goes soft when switching to night mode, as the IR spectrum of the image will be slightly out of focus.

[MaxIcon 0]

IQEye cams take CS mount lenses for maximum flexibility, and can be pretty affordable. You can get them with sturdy, heavy duty external enclosures as well. They take manual iris lenses.

The distinction between Manual and Auto Iris lenses is starting to dawn on me.

 

But it would seem that, for an Auto Iris lens I would need a cam that has whatever it takes to drive it.

 

But do I really want Auto? I'm thinking maybe not bc this cam is only useful during daylight hours and it seems possible that a single manual setting might accomodate the variation in light between full sun and overcast - if not with professional photographic quality, at least well enough to see if windsurfers are planing or not.

 

Have I got it right so far?

 

Either way, what am I missing here:

 

Auto-Iris $60: http://tinyurl.com/c59czl4

 

Manual-Iris $165: http://tinyurl.com/c97h7gd

 

Seems backwards on the face of it - which tells me that there's something I don't know.

 

I prefer auto-iris lenses, as I've found that the exposure control via the lens iris is better than the exposure control of the manual iris IP cams I've been using. Unfortunately, you don't always have a choice about that unless you're spending more, as most mid-range IP cams don't have auto-iris drives. Other people may have other experiences.

 

So, the Rainbow lens you link to for $165? One sold a few days ago for $37 shipped, one got no bids at $55 shipped, and one sold with a Panasonic CP454 analog cam (great low-light cam!)for $90 shipped. I forget how much mine cost me, but it was in the $50-ish price range, which puts it in the same range as the auto-iris version. You have to watch the listings and be patient to get the good deals. The cheap ones sell, and the overpriced ones (like the $165 lens) get relisted over and over.

 

These Rainbow lenses are pretty old designs, are big and bulky, and are 1/2" C mount, all of which make them less desirable on the modern market, but they're pretty good performers for the money if you get the cheap ones. Also, many Rainbow lenses are fairly low end (I've got a box full of plastic 1/3" Rainbow lenses that are worth little), but these big boys are quite solid and well made.

 

They're not MP rated, and I've found that good quality MP lenses are definitely sharper and clearer than similar quality non MP lenses, but you do have the marketing problem that many lenses are called MP that are modern inexpensive junk. For a surfcam, I'm thinking MP lens resolution isn't really a critical need.

 

To find great deals on decent 1/2" or 2/3" lenses, you have to search a variety of brands and filter the searches because there's so much junk out there.

 

I search ebay for these brands: Computar, Fujinon, CBC, Rainbow, Arecont. To filter it down (you have to search in the body of the listing), use things like "1/2" and "2/3" (quotes required; search ignores punctuation, so this would also find 1-2, 1:2, etc), "c mount", cs or "cs mount", "manual iris", etc.

 

Also note that the focal length you need for 2/3 is different than for 1/2". That is, a 20mm 1/2" lens will give you a wider field of view than a 20mm 2/3" lens on a 1/2" sensor, since the sensor is only sitting in a portion of the lenses projection.

 

There's a bit of an art to getting great deals on used gear, and it does take time, so it's not for everyone (plus you get burned sometimes). I look for great deals and buy stuff I don't really need sometimes because, well, you never know!

[PeteCress 0]

Well, it's turning out the way I expected: a *lot* less simple than somebody like me who knows nothing would think.

 

That being the case, I'm thinking "zoom" in a camera that's already designed for same.

 

This one is looks like it has possibilities: http://tinyurl.com/d43y24m (Acti 35x Zoom: KCM-5311E)

 

Going price seems tb in the mid-top-upper five hundreds.

 

My reasoning is that with 35x zoom, there has tb a sweet spot in there somewhere and all I have to do is find it.

 

It's overkill in that I will never use the two-way audio or IR night vision. The 15fps frame rate is more than will ever be used considering my bandwidth constraints.

 

Other than that, would anybody care to comment?

[buellwinkle 0]

The KCM-5311E will do a good job for what you need and it's priced well for it's capabilities. What you can do a set a patrol to stop at different zoom lengths. So you can provide a wide shot of the area, a few seconds later go to 15x zoom, then 30X and so on. You'll love the autofocus if you ever had to use a manual varifocal lens.

[Korgoth Of Barbaria 0]

The KCM-5311E will do a good job for what you need and it's priced well for it's capabilities. What you can do a set a patrol to stop at different zoom lengths. So you can provide a wide shot of the area, a few seconds later go to 15x zoom, then 30X and so on. You'll love the autofocus if you ever had to use a manual varifocal lens.

 

Just like we did here:

 

LC_adLiwQJI

 

Its on auto-patrol with 2 presents. It's 400m from that statue.

[PeteCress 0]

The KCM-5311E will do a good job for what you need and it's priced well for it's capabilities.

 

That's it then. I order it today - as soon as I can get a warm fuzzy feeling about one of the vendors. I'll get the recommended "Building" bracket too - although I suspect I will be reverting to something more stable..... theirs looks kind of long tb hanging out there in 45 mph wind gusts.

 

The 5611 looks to me like a good night-time critter cam and I'm thinking about one for the back yard - maybe in conjunction with a couple of those separate motion-sensitive floods that people around here typically have above their garage doors. My experience so far with IR has been that it's not really adequate for decent detail/motion without very expensive supplemental IR. Also, that little ring of glowing red spots seems to scream "Here I am: steal me!"....

 

Edit 2012 08-01 1220:

 

Just fired off the order to CTI: $551, no shipping, no tax.

 

Same outfit I ordered my Sony SNC-CH260 from. Had a 'problem' with the camera and they were responsive and did the right thing. Quotes bc it was really RCI on my part, but it CTI handled it well.

[PeteCress 0]

Just like we did here:

LC_adLiwQJI

Its on auto-patrol with 2 presents. It's 400m from that statue.

That video pretty much sold me on the cam.

 

It arrives Monday... but the POE switch won't get here until more like Friday...

[buellwinkle 0]

If you get anxious and want to start playing with it on Monday, see if you have an old 12V adapter, one that can put out about 1 amp or better. Should come with a green block connector that you attach the wires to.

[PeteCress 0]

If you get anxious and want to start playing with it on Monday, see if you have an old 12V adapter, one that can put out about 1 amp or better. Should come with a green block connector that you attach the wires to.

The cam actually came with a 12v adapter - and instructions on how to hook it up.

 

The whole schmeer was $577 ($551 for the cam from CTI plus $26 for a bracket from B&H Photo.

 

Can somebody explain to me why I layed out $914 for a Sony SNC-CH260 last year?

 

I don't know that much, and I haven't given the ACTi a thorough workout yet. Having said that, what I have seen so far beats the Sony hands-down: there's just no comparison.

 

Maybe something to do with durability?

 

Or was it just stupidity on my part?

 

 

Right now, I'm trying to get it working under Blue Iris.

 

Got a pic, but no zoom capability...

[buellwinkle 0]

You have to configure the zoom feature in BI. Click the PTZ tab when you add/configure a camera, check the box that says Enable Pan/Tilt/Zoom and select ACTi from the drop down. That will enabled the currently grayed out PTZ controls at the bottom of which you would use the magnifying glass icons to zoom in/out and you can set presets in BI. Have not tried BI with a zoom capable ACTi but if you run into trouble, I can double check it against the KCM-5611 which is the replacement for the KCM-5311 but should zoom the same way.

[PeteCress 0]

You have to configure the zoom feature in BI. Click the PTZ tab when you add/configure a camera, check the box that says Enable Pan/Tilt/Zoom and select ACTi from the drop down. That will enabled the currently grayed out PTZ controls at the bottom of which you would use the magnifying glass icons to zoom in/out and you can set presets in BI. Have not tried BI with a zoom capable ACTi but if you run into trouble, I can double check it against the KCM-5611 which is the replacement for the KCM-5311 but should zoom the same way.

Worked... Thanks!

 

I even doped out the numbers at bottom of the web user's screen being the presets.

 

Only thing I see so far is that, at night as it is now, the cam is not auto-refocusing and I had to open up the cam directly and click Live | PTZ | Refocus.

 

Tomorrow we'll see if that's just an artifact of low light and/or night mode.

[PeteCress 0]

Only thing I see so far is that, at night as it is now, the cam is not auto-refocusing and I had to open up the cam directly and click Live | PTZ | Refocus.

 

Tomorrow we'll see if that's just an artifact of low light and/or night mode.

Bingo... It seems tb an artifact of something to do with night. Re-focuses a-ok now that it's daylight.

 

The owner of the biz where this cam is going tb installed would not buy in to a full PTZ cam.... but just the zoom/auto-focus on this one has me lusting again for a full PTZ...

[buellwinkle 0]

ACTi is supposed to roll out a 1080P PTZ camera soon that they demoed at ISC back in March that will come at a decent price, but decent price for a 1080P PTZ will still likely be about 3-4x what you paid. In theory, you can get a pan/tilt mount for your camera and control it from the camera and I don't think it's that's expensive to do.

[PeteCress 0]

ACTi is supposed to roll out a 1080P PTZ camera soon that they demoed at ISC back in March that will come at a decent price, but decent price for a 1080P PTZ will still likely be about 3-4x what you paid. In theory, you can get a pan/tilt mount for your camera and control it from the camera and I don't think it's that's expensive to do.

I started out thinking more is better rez-wise, but experience so far has been that 1280x1024 is really about the max when it comes to bandwidth.

 

I tried my new 5311 at max rez and found, even just running locally, a 20+ second delay between something being in front of the camera and actually seeing it via Blue Iris.

 

Right now, I'm running it at 1280x720 and the delay is minimal. At 640x480, of course, the delay is imperceptible.

 

I have to wonder if I am doing something dumb LAN-wise. Does anybody else use BI with higher-rez cams?

[Razer_SE 0]

Wow, that has to be a BI limitation. I'm running a lot of the ACTi cameras in a lot of locations with no issues like that but I'm using Exacq. Location I was at today has 9 IP cameras / 10 analog and two of them are 5211e cameras running at full 4MP resolution and there is minimal delay. Like a second or two max. They are set on variable bit rate high quality. My other 7 IP cameras are set between 1.5 - 3 or to variable also.

 

I don't get horrible lag even when viewing the location over the internet in a web browser!