Captured vandalism, no clear face shot. Now what!?

[Toaster 0]

Fairly upset, caught a vandalism at my store front during lunch break. Customer comes to store on a bicycle, upset the door is locked, starts trashing the parking lot and sidewalk in front of the door with trash, old tire, breaking glass bottles, that were all left on the side of the shop earlier by the lawn guy - which was my fault for not insisting he cleaned up, or going out there and cleaning it myself...

 

Point is I capture the event on the roof mounted camera, but with no clear face shot, now what? No real evidence to speak of, unless I'm lucky enough that the guy comes back on the bike and I see him and can confront him at that point.

 

This is a Q-see 1/3" CCD camera with 520tvl recording on a Q-see QT528 dvr which is 30fps at D1. It THIS SETUP

 

Here's the video on YouTube

 

TEWBfTmHwt4

 

The 25mb raw D1 video pulled from the dvr can be downloaded HERE

[shockwave199 0]

Point is I capture the event on the roof mounted camera, but with no clear face shot, now what?

Now what, what? This incident is over. Use this as a learning experience. What have YOU learned? What will you change and/or add to your system to correct the problem? I'll give you a hint- it's not the equipment that failed you.

[ak357 0]

I'll give you a another hint !

stop investing in crap

get megapix cams

[Toaster 0]

This system was installed in 2010... and it was a nice inexpensive system at the time. Like everything in tech, time has marched forward and prices have dropped, products (across the board) have improved, and it might be time to consider upgrading.

 

I've seen some NVR boxes, which last time I looked at IP camera's the only solution that I can remember was using a dedicated computer with capture card... now I see they have some stand alone boxes.

 

So what would the folks here suggest? What is a decent solution, cost effective, with 6-8 cameras. (I'm currently running 6 cameras, but would probably add the other 2 outside for rear view, side view for a total of

[Toaster 0]

Point is I capture the event on the roof mounted camera, but with no clear face shot, now what?

Now what, what? This incident is over. Use this as a learning experience. What have YOU learned? What will you change and/or add to your system to correct the problem? I'll give you a hint- it's not the equipment that failed you.

 

I already know the placement of that camera is less than ideal, but nearly a year ago (to the day) we suffered another incident where someone STOLE the rear camera right off the wall. So I'm not a fan of lowering the cameras to anywhere near adult height where they can be tampered with. This outside parking lot camera is up on top of the awning type thing above the store's door.. in order to lower it any, I have to re-do the signage that is on that awning. OK, let's assume I did that, it would get moved about 2 feet closer to street level, I'm not sure that would have helped much. It would still be at a considerable angled view... again, there is just not a lot of option for that camera's placement. Unless I figure out a way to conceal one lower that would get a better face shot as someone walked in or towards the door. I'd have to hide it pretty good, otherwise I run the risk of it being stolen ---- AGAIN...

 

THIS THREAD has pictures, and that video from 08/16/2011 when the bum stole my rear camera (which I never replaced yet)

[lemike41 0]

if you had an avigilon pro 16MP you could have catched the face perfectly @ 0.05sec on the video, you could have catched the serial number of the bike wheel , can't you put 8000$ on a camera?

 

 

some clues:

 

 

your cam is too high (use an anti vandal dome and place it lower)

your resolution is too low (use megapixel cam)

your angle is too wide for this low resolution (your pixel per foot is too low for facial recognition)

your recording codec is not the best for cctv (use Mobotix Mxpeg or Avigilon Jpeg2000 if you want the best detail)

[tomcctv 190]

hi. since you already have a system. you are best going hybrid ..... use your existing cameras and add MP were needed.

[the toss 0]

The REAL lesson to be learnt from this is that simply throwing up a couple of cameras will not automatically solve all your problems. There is not a camera around that can't be rendered useless by a hat , a hoodie & a pair of sunglasses. Like everything , there are limits as to what is practical , possible & affordable.

[Toaster 0]

The REAL lesson to be learnt from this is that simply throwing up a couple of cameras will not automatically solve all your problems. There is not a camera around that can't be rendered useless by a hat , a hoodie & a pair of sunglasses. Like everything , there are limits as to what is practical , possible & affordable.

 

AGREED!

[shockwave199 0]

Don't forget that what you essentially did was put your place of business at risk because you got a camera stolen once. So you saved the camera with a high install, and you were willing to sacrifice an ID shot for it. How did that work out for you? And was that a varifocal camera, where even though it was installed high up it could have had a tighter fov? Worry more about the dvr part of the link- the thing that holds the evidence. Analog cameras are dispensable. As long as they collect the right images, they've done their job. The lesson to be learned is no matter what type of camera you put out there, you have to be wise and prudent as to how, where, and how many will actually have a shot of helping you in time of need.

[yakky 0]

A lower mounted camera is going to be your best bet. Megapixel cams with $5k NVRs are useless when they get the top of peoples heads. Overhead cameras are great for seeing what is going on, not people's faces. Mount a small/hidden camera right above the door.

[tomcctv 190]

The REAL lesson to be learnt from this is that simply throwing up a couple of cameras will not automatically solve all your problems. There is not a camera around that can't be rendered useless by a hat , a hoodie & a pair of sunglasses. Like everything , there are limits as to what is practical , possible & affordable.

 

AGREED!

 

 

also another thing to remember cctv is for information collection. dont always think you need a face shot. if you know what to look for in the footage every bit of info can help.

 

your guy throws 5 empty packets of cigarettes into the frame. he has no gloves on ..... 1 empty packet means nothing but 5 with his fingerprints on means he put them there. but that also depends on how helpful your police are.

 

but you can also tweek your footage and put pictures up in your shop. or even a QR code of the footage so your customers can see.

 

 

[shockwave199 0]

Also the cops usually know the morons of the area. It's likely they'll recognize this guy from priors and even though it may not be enough to take to court, they can give him a firm warning to cut the crap or else.

[cbodbyl 0]

Hire or at least consult a professional with training, experience and good references. You're lucky it wasn't worse.

[Toaster 0]

A lower mounted camera is going to be your best bet. Megapixel cams with $5k NVRs are useless when they get the top of peoples heads. Overhead cameras are great for seeing what is going on, not people's faces. Mount a small/hidden camera right above the door.

 

Actually this seems like the most logical and economical solution to resolve this particular issue.

 

I have a couple questions about mounting a camera above the door. The door is under a small awning with a drop ceiling. The highest point is probably 7.5-8 ft up, which is where the camera will be mounted - as high as possible up against the drop ceiling mounted to brick.

 

1. I've seen vandal eye ball AND vandal dome's. Obviously there is a difference. Which is better? The eye ball camera's look like they're intended for inside, but they claim to be IP66 weather resistant and vandal resistant...

2. There are some with IR's for night vision, and others without. Since there is already a bullet camera much higher up ON TOP OF THE AWNING with IR night vision, should the dome/eye ball have IR? (I'm guessing YES on this one)

3. I'm thinking varifocal so I can adjust to get the best possible images in the most logical spot, which I'll figure out once I see exactly what the video will look like once its installed.

4. Any camera suggestions for a camera for this application?

 

As always, I truly appreciate everyone who has taken the time to read this thread, watch the video and voice your opinions. I absolutely love this forum, and really value the opinions/suggestions and GUIDANCE I have received. I've learned a lot, and hope to continue to do so.

 

Many Thanks,

Toaster

[shockwave199 0]

I've seen vandal eye ball AND vandal dome's. Obviously there is a difference. Which is better? The eye ball camera's look like they're intended for inside, but they claim to be IP66 weather resistant and vandal resistant..

You can see which direction an eyeball is facing. A dome you generally cannot- or it's much harder to tell, so they are more off putting because of that. Eyeballs handle IR better. Domes tend to reflect IR on the inside of the dome and are generally more problematic with IR, as far as I've ever seen. I would not get a dome with IR inside. Eyeballs rated for exterior will handle the elements. Interior rated eyeballs would be better inside. If there is sufficient light on your store front all night, no IR would be good. If it gets fairly dark, use IR. Varifocal is always best for the most flexibility to dial in the proper fov. By all means, put people in the shots and look at how you see them, when determining the best position. And don't skimp on cameras. Don't have blind spots. You know, I've been going to a drug store for years and have been well aware of the indoor eyeball cameras. I only recently noticed they had eyeball domes outside in front as well. Black ones aren't as noticeable as you'd think. Good luck.

[GrouchoBoucho 0]

Eyeballs handle IR better. Domes tend to reflect IR on the inside of the dome and are generally more problematic with IR, as far as I've ever seen. I would not get a dome with IR inside. If there is sufficient light on your store front all night, no IR would be good. If it gets fairly dark, use IR.

a better idea: start with a proper low-light camera, rather than a cheap camera that uses ir to compensate. if there isn't sufficient light, add it in the form of motion lights. bright lights turning on is far more of a deterrence at night than any camera. ir should be special-purpose thing for specific requirements, not the be-all "night vision" band-aid it's most often used as.