12 Building 24 camera system design

[ipvision 0]

I have a customer that owns a apt complex in the ghetto in Atlanta, GA. 12 separate buildings, building 1 has the office, and is where the internet is. There will be 4 cameras in the office building, I already have my layout for those cameras.

 

My problem is installing 2 cams in each of the other 11 buildings. The buildings do not currently have internet, there are renters that have internet, but I cant really use that, because the renter would be able to disconnect the internet connection at anytime. WiFi isn't an option, because we all know its not reliable enough. I could put a DVR in each building, but the only place to put it would be in the hot attic, and a 4ch dvr for $250x11 gets a little to pricey. Ive considered running cat5 to each building, but it would have to be run underground, inside conduit, and theres a lot of sidewalks I would have to dig under, and as you can see in the pic some of the buildings are separated by parking lots. I only found out about this 2 days ago, and the owner is in a hurry to get something done because theres a lot of theft, prostitution, drug dealing, and violence going on there. Its actually going to be a dangerous place for me to work. So I need to come up with something fast.

 

The only option I can think of would be some cams with sd cards, but the cams are going to be located very high, so it would be to hard to retrieve the card. I could possible relocate the cameras to a lower position so it would be easier, but I would have to go there and look again for a good spot thats lower. Although that could aslo be expensive for 20 sd cams.

 

Let me know what you guys think.

 

[ChrisP 0]

My two cents for you:

 

1. Dont put anything electronic in the attic. It can get really hot in the summer time and your equipment will start to malfunction. If you do, make sure you have some really good cooling for the equipment in there.

 

2. If you can, use ip cameras. Create a point to multi point wireless network. With this you can have central recording in the office.

 

3. If you go the DVR route, still create a point to multi point ip network and manage all DVRs from a central location.

 

If you need more help PM me.

[ak357 0]

I have a customer that owns a apt complex in the ghetto in Atlanta, GA. 12 separate buildings, building 1 has the office, and is where the internet is. There will be 4 cameras in the office building, I already have my layout for those cameras.

 

My problem is installing 2 cams in each of the other 11 buildings. The buildings do not currently have internet, there are renters that have internet, but I cant really use that, because the renter would be able to disconnect the internet connection at anytime. WiFi isn't an option, because we all know its not reliable enough. I could put a DVR in each building, but the only place to put it would be in the hot attic, and a 4ch dvr for $250x11 gets a little to pricey.

 

The only option I can think of would be some cams with sd cards, but the cams are going to be located very high, so it would be to hard to retrieve the card. I could possible relocate the cameras to a lower position so it would be easier, but I would have to go there and look again for a good spot thats lower. Although that could aslo be expensive for 20 sd cams.

 

Let me know what you guys think.

 

 

$ 250 is expensive ?

SD card camera expensive ?

For them or for you ?

[ChrisP 0]

If you are doing an analog camera setup with a local dvr then there is no need for a camera with SD card.

 

Does your $250 DVR include a drive or just the bare bones? If a drive, then what capacity? what brand?

 

You will need a dvr that has a decent software for central monitoring.

 

Just remember, if you are installing 11 dvrs, there are 11 hard drives that can potentially fail.

[ipvision 0]

I have a customer that owns a apt complex in the ghetto in Atlanta, GA. 12 separate buildings, building 1 has the office, and is where the internet is. There will be 4 cameras in the office building, I already have my layout for those cameras.

 

My problem is installing 2 cams in each of the other 11 buildings. The buildings do not currently have internet, there are renters that have internet, but I cant really use that, because the renter would be able to disconnect the internet connection at anytime. WiFi isn't an option, because we all know its not reliable enough. I could put a DVR in each building, but the only place to put it would be in the hot attic, and a 4ch dvr for $250x11 gets a little to pricey.

 

The only option I can think of would be some cams with sd cards, but the cams are going to be located very high, so it would be to hard to retrieve the card. I could possible relocate the cameras to a lower position so it would be easier, but I would have to go there and look again for a good spot thats lower. Although that could aslo be expensive for 20 sd cams.

 

Let me know what you guys think.

 

 

$ 250 is expensive ?

SD card camera expensive ?

For them or for you ?

 

$250 is expensive when you multiply it x11

SD card camera would probably be to expensive for them, because again its 20 of those.

[ipvision 0]

If you are doing an analog camera setup with a local dvr then there is no need for a camera with SD card.

I would stil have to run wire from the front office to each building.

Does your $250 DVR include a drive or just the bare bones? If a drive, then what capacity? what brand?

500GB HD

You will need a dvr that has a decent software for central monitoring.

Not a problem, PSS will do.

Just remember, if you are installing 11 dvrs, there are 11 hard drives that can potentially fail.

True

[ipvision 0]

My two cents for you:

 

1. Dont put anything electronic in the attic. It can get really hot in the summer time and your equipment will start to malfunction. If you do, make sure you have some really good cooling for the equipment in there.

Ya I wasnt planning on it, just contemplating it.

2. If you can, use ip cameras. Create a point to multi point wireless network. With this you can have central recording in the office.

Wireless is not reliable enough, someone could get shot while the signal is down.

3. If you go the DVR route, still create a point to multi point ip network and manage all DVRs from a central location.

I would still have to get cat5 to each one of the buildings, which involves laying underground pvc, digging under sidewalks, and to much labor.

If you need more help PM me.

[thewireguys 3]

What are the plans with this system? What does the customer want the system to do for them? Are these cameras to cover outside parking areas or inside areas? What is the budget?

[ak357 0]

What are the plans with this system? What does the customer want the system to do for them? Are these cameras to cover outside parking areas or inside areas? What is the budget?

$ 250x11 is expensive

do u really want to know his budget

[GrouchoBoucho 0]

$250x12 for dvrs (don't forget one for the office) + $100x24 for cameras = $5400... or get some 2mp dahua domes with sd recording for $200 each for a total of $4800. cheaper, no? add the multipoint wifi between buildings; all cams recording internally, managed by pss software on office pc.

[ipvision 0]

What are the plans with this system? What does the customer want the system to do for them? Are these cameras to cover outside parking areas or inside areas? What is the budget?

 

They did not give me a budget. They are cheap Indians, no disrespect. They want me to plan everything, I told them I was going to give them two different estimates with 2 different options. They just want 2 cams on each building to try to catch drug activity and other stuff so they can evict people. They know nothing, all the decision making is up to me.

 

I believe they want to catch the people coming in and out of the apts more then anything.

[ipvision 0]

$250x12 for dvrs (don't forget one for the office) + $100x24 for cameras = $5400... or get some 2mp dahua domes with sd recording for $200 each for a total of $4800. cheaper, no? add the multipoint wifi between buildings; all cams recording internally, managed by pss software on office pc.

 

I have installed a lot of dahua and I really like their pss software. So you are saying install sd cams that can be managed wirelessly with the pss software. That sounds like an excellent solution. I just have always been told to stay away from wifi when it comes to cctv because it is not that reliable. But I guess if the video is being stored on the sd card, and then being downloaded with pss software then that would work great. What do you think?

 

Also could you please elaborate on the multipoint wifi. I have set up wireless distribution systems before but they were very unreliable.

 

Thanks,

Kris

Edited September 8, 2012 by Guest

[ipvision 0]

I just want to say thanks to everyone who has contributed so far. Its great to be able to have people to reach out to for ideas that work in the same field. I am a one man operation with to much work to handle, and I greatly appreciate any advice or help you guys give me.

[thewireguys 3]

I would skip the 2 cameras per building setup. Looks like there is only to entrances/exits correct? I would put to LPR cameras to ID plates are cars are leaving. Then I would get parking lot coverage. It looks like to could do this without having to get a network to every building and would help reduce your cost a lot. Do they have light poles? Can you tap power off of them?

 

A wireless network would diffidently work but you have to know what your doing and it will eat up a lot budget if you have to build one for every building.

[ipvision 0]

I would skip the 2 cameras per building setup. Looks like there is only to entrances/exits correct? I would put to LPR cameras to ID plates are cars are leaving. Then I would get parking lot coverage. It looks like to could do this without having to get a network to every building and would help reduce your cost a lot. Do they have light poles? Can you tap power off of them?

 

A wireless network would diffidently work but you have to know what your doing and it will eat up a lot budget if you have to build one for every building.

 

I was thinking the same thing about mounting them on poles. And yes I can tap into the power.

 

I have a degree in NSA so networking isnt a problem. But I would always recommend against wifi because the signal can go out at the most important moment. Its just not reliable enough.

[thewireguys 3]

I would skip the 2 cameras per building setup. Looks like there is only to entrances/exits correct? I would put to LPR cameras to ID plates are cars are leaving. Then I would get parking lot coverage. It looks like to could do this without having to get a network to every building and would help reduce your cost a lot. Do they have light poles? Can you tap power off of them?

 

A wireless network would diffidently work but you have to know what your doing and it will eat up a lot budget if you have to build one for every building.

 

I was thinking the same thing about mounting them on poles. And yes I can tap into the power.

 

I have a degree in NSA so networking isnt a problem. But I would always recommend against wifi because the signal can go out at the most important moment. Its just not reliable enough.

 

Then you not designing your system right. I have many customers on PTP or PTMP links streaming multiple megapixel cameras. You need to understand RF and the limitations of wireless. Is wireless bulletproof no but can it be extremely reliable if designed correctly with the right gear yes.

Edited September 9, 2012 by Guest

[GrouchoBoucho 0]

$250x12 for dvrs (don't forget one for the office) + $100x24 for cameras = $5400... or get some 2mp dahua domes with sd recording for $200 each for a total of $4800. cheaper, no? add the multipoint wifi between buildings; all cams recording internally, managed by pss software on office pc.

 

I have installed a lot of dahua and I really like their pss software. So you are saying install sd cams that can be managed wirelessly with the pss software. That sounds like an excellent solution. I just have always been told to stay away from wifi when it comes to cctv because it is not that reliable. But I guess if the video is being stored on the sd card, and then being downloaded with pss software then that would work great. What do you think?

*analog* wireless is restricted and unreliable unless you pay big money for industrial-grade stuff. one of the main problems with it is that the consumer analog band is already littered with other devices, plus each camera must be on its own channel and have its own receiver - it gets very impractical, very quickly.

 

*wifi* can actually be done with good reliability and high cost efficiency *if* properly done, using the right equipment, with a well-designed setup. ubiquiti is often mentioned around here for this purpose; i believe some of their wireless stations can be had in the $100-$150 range. beyond that' it's always possible to use some low-cost routers, load them with dd-wrt firmware to set up a wds network, and attach any number of commercially-available or custom-built directional antennas to give you high-gain, long-range signal paths. the main difference is that you can run a large number of cameras (depending on total bandwidth) over one link, rather than needing a separate link for each one.

[ipvision 0]

$250x12 for dvrs (don't forget one for the office) + $100x24 for cameras = $5400... or get some 2mp dahua domes with sd recording for $200 each for a total of $4800. cheaper, no? add the multipoint wifi between buildings; all cams recording internally, managed by pss software on office pc.

 

*analog* wireless is restricted and unreliable unless you pay big money for industrial-grade stuff. one of the main problems with it is that the consumer analog band is already littered with other devices, plus each camera must be on its own channel and have its own receiver - it gets very impractical, very quickly.

 

*wifi* can actually be done with good reliability and high cost efficiency *if* properly done, using the right equipment, with a well-designed setup. ubiquiti is often mentioned around here for this purpose; i believe some of their wireless stations can be had in the $100-$150 range. beyond that' it's always possible to use some low-cost routers, load them with dd-wrt firmware to set up a wds network, and attach any number of commercially-available or custom-built directional antennas to give you high-gain, long-range signal paths. the main difference is that you can run a large number of cameras (depending on total bandwidth) over one link, rather than needing a separate link for each one.

 

I have set up a few wds with dd-wrt it just wasn't reliable enough. I thought at first maybe I was doing something wrong, but after buffalo tech couldn't get it working right either I gave up. Plus cascade port forwarding is a pain. Maybe it was the hardware I was using.

 

I really like the Ubiquiti idea. I'm assuming your talking about the unifi stations?

[thewireguys 3]

^^^ let me guess you used omni antennas?

[ipvision 0]

^^^ let me guess you used omni antennas?

 

Yes, and now that you have pointed that out, I see the problem. I should have used directional antennas correct?

[GrouchoBoucho 0]

I have set up a few wds with dd-wrt it just wasn't reliable enough. I thought at first maybe I was doing something wrong, but after buffalo tech couldn't get it working right either I gave up. Plus cascade port forwarding is a pain. Maybe it was the hardware I was using.

the trick i've found with dd-wrt is in getting the right version for the specific hardware. my main router is an asus rt-n16; i picked up a couple rt-n12s to go with it using wds. i had to use a newer firmware for the 12s (they didn't add support until build 18xxx-something), so i flashed the 16 with the same version, and had all kinds of problems (including the vpnd being broken). i tried several different builds on the 16 but ended up going back to build 16484 (which i'd been running for months before getting the 12s), and the latest build at the time (19342) on the 12s, to get everything rock-solid. at this point, it's running a 5mp and 1.3mp camera off one, and a 2mp and 3mp cameras off the other, with zero dropouts.

[ipvision 0]

I have set up a few wds with dd-wrt it just wasn't reliable enough. I thought at first maybe I was doing something wrong, but after buffalo tech couldn't get it working right either I gave up. Plus cascade port forwarding is a pain. Maybe it was the hardware I was using.

the trick i've found with dd-wrt is in getting the right version for the specific hardware. my main router is an asus rt-n16; i picked up a couple rt-n12s to go with it using wds. i had to use a newer firmware for the 12s (they didn't add support until build 18xxx-something), so i flashed the 16 with the same version, and had all kinds of problems (including the vpnd being broken). i tried several different builds on the 16 but ended up going back to build 16484 (which i'd been running for months before getting the 12s), and the latest build at the time (19342) on the 12s, to get everything rock-solid. at this point, it's running a 5mp and 1.3mp camera off one, and a 2mp and 3mp cameras off the other, with zero dropouts.

 

Im really liking the idea of setting up a ubiquiti mesh network. I have had several jobs where a wireless mesh network would have came in very handy, but I did not want to waste all my time dealing with what you just described. No one paid me to waste all that time trying to set up that wds last time, and I dont plan on doing it again. I just need to find a good ubiquiti distributor with support.

[GrouchoBoucho 0]

Im really liking the idea of setting up a ubiquiti mesh network. I have had several jobs where a wireless mesh network would have came in very handy, but I did not want to waste all my time dealing with what you just described. No one paid me to waste all that time trying to set up that wds last time, and I dont plan on doing it again. I just need to find a good ubiquiti distributor with support.

well, that's the difference between doing something for yourself with free or near-free equipment... and doing something for a customer with purpose-built equipment. i would shy away from the dd-wrt route toward the ubiquiti solution as well, if it was for a customer... but on the other hand, it's something that *does work* if done right, and may be suitable on a production site as a "stepping stone" to the final product.

[ipvision 0]

Im really liking the idea of setting up a ubiquiti mesh network. I have had several jobs where a wireless mesh network would have came in very handy, but I did not want to waste all my time dealing with what you just described. No one paid me to waste all that time trying to set up that wds last time, and I dont plan on doing it again. I just need to find a good ubiquiti distributor with support.

well, that's the difference between doing something for yourself with free or near-free equipment... and doing something for a customer with purpose-built equipment. i would shy away from the dd-wrt route toward the ubiquiti solution as well, if it was for a customer... but on the other hand, it's something that *does work* if done right, and may be suitable on a production site as a "stepping stone" to the final product.

 

I have a lot of places around here that I could market a system like that to. Specifically neighborhoods, apt complexes, building complexes, and other places where there is multiple buildings but I am not ready to do that until I have a system that I know I can throw up quick and is reliable, the best way to make money. Have you or anyone on here used their stuff before?

[hardwired 0]

Unless you use very expensive multi-radio units (and sometimes even with using high end gear), mesh is usually a disaster, especially because people look at it as a plug and play solution, with no understanding of a proper RF system design.

 

In almost all cases, a properly planned point to point, or point to multipoint solution is far preferable. (Incidentally, Ubiquiti radios don't support true mesh networking without a third party firmware, because of the absolute disaster that attempting mesh usually brings).

 

I have multiple installations with up to a dozen Ubiquiti radios each, running with extremely high reliability, it just takes proper planning in regards to site surveys (both RF spectrum analysis, and line of sight planning), bandwidth needs, and an understanding of the proper equipment for the job. (A hint- omnidirectional antennas are almost never a good choice).