YANLFH (Yet another newbie looking for help)

[ColdFeet 0]

I'm responsible for the design and implementation for what seems to be an unusual need. At least I haven’t come across anything that appears to be I am looking for. Nor have I found a local experienced vendor to consult with. I have scanned this site (which has been a great help), but haven’t found what I am looking for. Perhaps I’m still too ignorant to realize the answer is there. Regardless, any insight/advice or even criticism would be most welcome.

 

What do I need? I require semi-mobile 360 degree 24/7 outdoor day/night color recording, with resolution sufficient for unique facial identification out to ~20 feet, and general object recognition out to ~100 feet.

 

My thinking is to have 3-4 cameras pointed in a circle. The camera(s), will be mounted with a downward tilt depending on how high I get them. The cameras will then be capped under a dome to help protect against the elements. For now, the height will be about 10 feet, though I am trying to see how I can get a bit higher so that close in objects (vehicles) do not excessively block those a bit further out. Each recording station is semi-mobile as it will be relocated to a new area every few days, the higher it is the more difficult tear down/transport/ re-assembly gets. This also means attempting to tune the cameras for each site would be difficult.

 

I am building two initial systems, with perhaps an additional eight depending on the results. My budget for the cameras (including any cases), is about $1,200 per station.

 

The good news is that I’ll have local AC power at each site and that video will be stored locally (environmentally protected PC). That’s about it for good news.

 

I’ve purchased two cameras so far, in an attempt to validate what I thought I had learned. The first camera was a CVC-7706DNV. It apparently meets the weather requirements (did I mention that I am in Alaska?), but video quality is very disappointing. Specifically, bright areas are severely washed out with no detail. Based on the documentation (one page – frankly, I think they do themselves a disservice by not providing more operational details) I tried different combinations of auto backlight and other choices, with either worse or no change in image quality. Perhaps there are other adjustments I should be making.

 

The second camera is a HT-7815DNV. I just got this one in so haven’t had a chance to determine what quality it will give.

 

I suspect based on the forum comments that better quality could be obtained with standard cameras placed in an outdoor environmental enclosure – but going that route seems cost prohibitive.

 

Is this possible with a $1,200 camera budget, or am I wasting my time? Any other ideas?

 

Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

Regards,

 

Scott

[rory 0]

A decent DVR will end up costing around $1200 retail.

Looks like you have a challenge

 

Basically to keep to that budget, you will need to use budget products, OEMs.

Not sure if you are buying wholesale or retail?

 

2 Brand name products you can look ar are Ganz and Sanyo, for Wide Dynamic or Day Night box cameras, if buying dealer cost, you could get to that budget per system. The DVR will be the big issue, if you need a decent mobile DVR, they arent cheap.

 

Rory

[ColdFeet 0]

Rory:

 

I wasn't clear. The $1200 is just for the cameras and any required housing. There is a separate budget for the other items, including video storage. The items are being costed now, and if they come in cheaper than estimated, that money could be shifted over to the cameras. But when have costs ever come in cheaper than estimated??

 

Good point on my costs. I am not a dealer. The only thing I have to offer is volume, and certainly not much of that. Only six to eight cameras for the first two stations. And if good data is captured, maybe up to a dozen or so stations (3-4 cameras each) total.

 

If reasonable video quality can not be obtained in that budget range, then the project probably will not proceed.

 

Thanks,

 

Scott

[rory 0]

Ok then sure, you should be able to cover it.

 

When i say dealer, i mean are you a business, or end user? If business, then you can usually get dealer prices. Distributors would just need some verification such as a business licence.

 

Ok, box cams would be the best image.

 

You mentioned day night, so you are looking at something like the following: All "True" Day Night Cameras.

 

Sanyo:

VCC-WD8574 - Wide Dynamic

VCC-4594

 

Ganz:

ZC-NH403N

 

Panasonic:

WV-CP484 - Wide Dynamic

WV-CP474H

WV-CL920A - 1/2" - Wide Dynamic

 

GE Security:

KTC-2000DN

 

Extreme CCTV:

FMX600 - Extended IR Range

FMX800 - 1/2" Extended IR Range

 

Other True Day Nights I didnt have a chance to look up, come from Bosch, Toshiba, and Samsung Techwin.

 

The Panasonic is a good buy if you will have back lighting issues since its Wide Dynamic. The Sanyo version no feedback on that one but Ive used their regular day night for IR apps in the past and they work well, and is the least expensive day night, right before the Ganz Day Night. The Toshiba is in the same price range i think. GE, Pano, are higher up the price range, great cameras, and the Extreme is even more, but great for day night apps with IR. If i left any out, im sorry

 

--------------------

 

For your weather environments, I would normally suggest something like the Extreme CCTV EX14MX or EX27MX, but the cost is going to be way over that budget.

 

So just make sure you get a decent housing, name brands, no OEM $20 housings, otherwise the cameras may not last long.

 

Also, though the budget doest afford it, thought of a PTZ at all? GE Cyber Domes are good, also Pelco, and Bosch, Bosch has an auto tracking feature.

 

Then there is another route, not sure on the pricing, but IPIX has 360 degree IP camera systems. Never used it so cant vouch for it, but it comes highly recommended for certain applications:

http://www.ipix.com/technology.html

 

Hope this helps some ..Provideo is a mid range line of products, alot of them are decent bullet cameras, though alot of them are also simply cheap cameras. They dont make anything, they buy OEM and relable it. I wouldnt expecty too much from their bullet cameras for Day Night, the BW's work well, the more expensive versions. But then you can buy a WizKid Bullet for the same price and in High Resolution (600TVL).

 

if its going to be pitch dark, or very low light, then you may want to look at seperate Infrared to add to the system, or they can add that later if they need it, just be ready for it is all. Extreme CCTV has the best gear for that, if you need info let me know.

 

Also, im sure someone on this forum can get what you need, just find out what you are interested in and post a question for dealers or distributors if you are a business, to PM you to get a quote.

 

Rory

[ColdFeet 0]

Rory:

 

Thanks for the detailed reply. This really gives me something to work on.

 

To answer a couple of your comments:

 

I am a business, WhisperSmart LLC. But quite honestly (and painfully obvious), this is my first experience with cctv. What distributors would you suggest contacting?

 

I'll check into the cameras you suggested. Thanks.

 

As for PTZ, not necessary, at least for this application as each camera is fixed so as to have a 360 degree combined view. No realtime operator involvement. Each station will be placed at a sight for a few days, video captured, then the station will be relocated to a new sight. The video from the previous sight will then be reviewed. The nighttime requirement seems a bit optimistic to me, but I'm only in charge of implementation

 

As these are not fixed installations, I am anticipating some serious contrast issues. I hope something like the Panasonic will be more robust in handling difficult lighting. Is dynamic range the right parametere to be looking for?

 

Good point on separate infrared lighting.

 

Although I have been saying perhaps 3 cameras/station, it also is becoming clearer that to even come close to the recognition spec's, at least four cameras per station are required.

 

I tried reviewing the Ipix site and their product offerings. It's difficult to get a good handle on their dim/no light performance. If their resolution and nightime specs are good, they seem like a really good fit. I'll try contacting them to get some resolution... (okay, that was lame, but it's late).

 

Thanks again for the help.

 

Scott

[Cooperman 0]

Cold Feet,

 

My initial reaction to your requirements were, it shouldn't be a problem to set up within your budget. Having thought about it a bit more, I now think it is going to be a problem.

 

You indicated that you need facial recognition up to 20 feet, and the logic of that argument suggests that with a conventional 1/3" CCTV camera, you'd need a 12mm focal length lens just to achieve a full picture height image of a six footer; in other words, at that distance the 'face' will only occupy approx. 15% of your picture height.

 

At 20 feet distance from the camera with a relatively narrow coverage lens fitted, you would then need an awful lot of cameras to achieve a full 360 degree coverage.

 

Looking at the problem from the other direction, the fewer cameras you use, the wider the lens needs to be, and the smaller an individual will therefore appear at your target distance.

 

The only practical way would be to consider using a smaller number of megapixel cameras, and that is probably going to push the cost up considerably.

[ColdFeet 0]

Cooperman:

 

You are totally correct. I am painfully coming up to speed on lens. I wish I would have started with them and worked backward.... Whoops, nevermind. I am obviously working backwards

 

It is not clear if the 20 ft facial recognition is specmanship, or a hard requirement. If hard, then the budget will have to move - which I doubt can, at least that much.

 

Mechanically and technically, going with much more than 4 cameras would be very difficult. Even ignoring budget issues, using 4 of something like the IQ501 and a 2.6 mm lens seems iffy. Then my headaches with local storage also jump significantly. I will just have to pull together the best compromise of features to see what priorities come out. Perhaps this project is just before its time.

 

On a more positive note, I've been using the HT-7815dnv and find it is much more in keeping with my expectations. I don't have any real experience to compare to, but it certainly seems far better than the CVC-7706DNV.

 

And last, a question. Is there a trick to mounting these to a pole, or a sealed enclosure (like a outdoor electrical box)? At least on these Speco's, the back plate holes don't match to a round electrical junction box. I have a tall pole that I'd like to mount the cameras to for comparison testing, but I can't seem to figure out a 'proper' way of mounting them.

 

This forum has been great, and I really appreciate the information and the help.

[Cooperman 0]

ColdFeet, ultimately it shouldn't matter too much which way you approach your problem, as long as you get there in the end.

 

I've certainly come across applications in the past (usually very high security) where 360 degree coverage was required, but not specifically with facial recognition. I've also looked at facial recognition at greater distances but only for a 180 degree zone.

 

If you were to use just four cameras, then on a 1/3" imager you'd be looking at either a 2.8mm or 2.9mm lens to each cover 1/4 of a full circle (not facial rec. though). Within your budget, it should be quite workable to make up an array of PCB board cameras that would do the job, but you'd be using most of the channels on a 16 input DVR!

 

If you consider using monochrome 400+ line resolution PCB cameras, there's absolutely no reason why it shouldn't do what you want, but you will need to have a custom fabricated housing manufactured; now that sounds like a fun project.

[CCTVmofo 0]

The Sony SSCE-473 might also be a good choice. 540 TVL with a good lux rating. Dont forget an important factor. If you are going to get a day/night camera you should consider getting a day/night lens. If you do not focus properly with a standard lens, when the camera kicks over the b/w you will receive an out of focus image. A day/night lens will correct this.

 

Usually, with day/night cameras and standard lenses, you would have to wait until dusk to focus. It sounds to me like you might be taking these up and down a lot and might not have the luxury of waiting around for optimal lighting condition

 

Fujinon, as well as Tamron make these type of lenses. In my experience, Fujinon has a wider selection. Both manufactuers makea 2.8-12mm version.

 

Proper focusing techniques will solve this problem with a standard lens. However, these day/night lenses cost close to the same as their standard counterparts. You will probably benefit from the peace of mind they provide since you will be taking these up and down a lot.

 

Hope that helps!!!

[SteveSurf 0]

Panasonic:

WV-CP484 - Wide Dynamic

WV-CP474H

Rory

With either of these two models you'll be able to handle:

 

128x or 64x brightness difference of the scene, respectively.

 

Pixel-based Dynamic Rangeadjustment or quad area-based Dynamic Range adjustment, respectively.

 

Automatic or manual activation of B/W mode with a no-hunting mode (camera does not bob back-n-forth in Day or Night Mode when IR light turns on (either model)

 

Secondary White Balance Mode for low color temp applications (Sodium Vapor Lighting.

 

Also, the Model WV-CP484 has auto backfocus, which will automatically refocus the camera with a swichover from Day-to-Night, eliminating focus shift. Good luck!

[ColdFeet 0]

Cooperman:

 

Thanks for the comments. I am pretty sure that I'm making progress as I think I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. Now, if someone could just do something about that annoying whistle....

 

SteveSurf & Rory:

 

I'm leaning towards the Panasonic WV-CP484 for my next sample. Does someone want to suggest a lens? Remember these are mobile, outdoor, with no control over lighting, and need day/night with wide angle coverage. Other than that, I'm easy

 

A suggestion or two for appropriate outdoor enclosures (with heater) wouldn't be ignored either.

 

For now, I'm somewhat stuck at 4 cameras, so the recognition spec is sliding big time. I am trying to see how I could get two more in, giving six total and a solid step closer towards the original spec. I am not giving it good odds as there are several issues, starting with the budget.

 

CCTVmofo:

 

Thanks for the tip on the Sony - I'll check it out also.

 

Scott

[SteveSurf 0]

SteveSurf & Rory:

 

I'm leaning towards the Panasonic WV-CP484 for my next sample. Does someone want to suggest a lens? Remember these are mobile, outdoor, with no control over lighting, and need day/night with wide angle coverage. Other than that, I'm easy

 

A suggestion or two for appropriate outdoor enclosures (with heater) wouldn't be ignored either.

The 484 is a great choice, but will only be successful if coupled with a high performance lens. So, I'm a photographer, and lenses are my "hot-button"!

 

CBC TG2010FCS-HSP 2mm f/1.0

CBC TG2Z1816FCS 1.8~3,6 f/1.6*

CBC TG2Z2814FCS-2 2.8 - 6mm f/1.4*

 

*(I am not sure if this is a constant aperture zoom)

 

These lenses will match the performance of the WV-CP484. Any less in terms of Max aperture, Glass, etc and you are reducing the capability of the camera/lens imaging system.

 

Good luck!

[CCTVmofo 0]

I like the Fujinon - YV5X27R4BSA2L

 

Here is what the manufacturer says:

 

Designed for day and night operation, the YV5x2.7R4B is the widest-angle (2.7-13.5mm) vari-focal length lens available for this application. Specialized optics provide crisp color images in daylight and black and white images in darkness - without the need to refocus. The YV5x2.7R4B has a focal length range of 2.7 to 13.5mm, an aperture range of F1.3 to T360, and a 100 degree angle of view at 2.7mm.

 

Enjoy!!!

[rory 0]

fujinon & computar, both great choices.

[SteveSurf 0]

FYI with Auto Backfocus (ABF; model WV-CP484), you need not worry about D/N lenses or focus shift, the camera does the adjustment of the imager itself automatically.

[ColdFeet 0]

I'm lost in a maze of twisty little passages that all look alike.

 

Note: All pricing was found at multiple retail online sources and is only meant to illustrate my question.

 

I can't seem to decide on the next step and time is wasting. In short, is it better to have more moderate quality cameras, each covering a smaller area - or, fewer better quality cameras with each covering more area.

 

Not confused enough? Consider an example. Take six Speco HT-7815DNV set in a circle covering a 20 ft radius circle. Compare that to having four Panasonic WV-CP484 covering the same circle. Each set of cameras would cost ~$2400 at common off the net pricing. The Panasonic is about the same price as the Speco, but each Panasonic would also require a heated enclosure and an external IR source. That adds about $200 to each camera, for a total of $600 ea, or four for $2400. With four cameras I need a ~2.?mm 90 degree lens on the Panasonic to cover 31' horizontally (90 degrees of a 20' radius circle). At a claimed horizontal resolution of 540 (or 520) would give ~1.4 pixels/inch at 20 feet. Whereas with six Speco cameras, each covering a 60 degree view would mean a ~4.?mm lens with a 21' horizontal view. Claimed image resolution is also lower at 480, giving about 1.9 pixels/inch at 20 feet. That's about a third higher, but what does that mean - in quality?

 

If I have great contrast and image quality, but fair resolution - how does that compare to better resolution, but poorer contrast? I've talked myself in and out of both choices several times already. A bullet camera is more straightforward mechanically, but as noted on the forum many times, has a checkered past. A standalone like the Panasonic has stellar credentials, but adding enclosures with heaters and IR lights adds to complexity and failure points; without a slam dunk case of being a superior image solution.

 

Of course what I would like is six Panasonic's, that would be sweet - but there is no way the budget will support that. I'm still working on how to get to $2400. Thus my question. Some guidance or even a gentle push in one direction or the other would be greatly appreciated.

 

Regards,

 

Scott

[Cooperman 0]

Hey ColdFeet,

 

Just a very quick response to your dilemma.

 

480 lines is high resolution, 520 > 540 is very high resolution (or as good as they get for the moment). I haven't used either of the cameras you are considering (in any case, PAL standard cameras here in the U.K. would be different anyway).

 

As recognition is the main requirement, concentrate on more high resolution cameras with narrower lenses, rather than fewer top end cameras. Unless you have unlimited funds for this trial, you're more likely to reach your objective with a greater number of narrower viewing cameras.

 

To save cost, consider the possibility of having the camera housing made up to accommodate, the number of cameras you intend to use, and you could also think about having a low cost (experimental) tube type IR illuminator made up, which would throw out light for 360 degrees, and cost a fraction of some of the high end illuminators.

[ColdFeet 0]

Cooperman:

 

Thanks for the input. As someone else put it, 'It's all relative' - so I am ordering a WV-CP484 with a TG2Z1816FCS lens. At least I will see what would be given up in quality. I will post my impressions on how it compares.

 

It appears the most cost effective approach for multiple moderate quality cameras would be all weather bullet style. I see Speco's are offering a 5 year warranty, though it is somewhat unclear what it covers or how effective it is. If I didn't search further, I will be using the HT-7815DNV as it has mechanical IR filter and the split glass does seem to prevent the IR halo effect. I'm impressed with the low light color and overall image quality seems okay both day and night. On the con side, details do tend to wash out in only moderate (to me) bright areas. Perhaps more professional adjustments would be able to correct that.

 

Anyway, why I started this was to ask for other candidates to consider. Anyone???

 

Even with budget issue, etc., the decision has been made to proceed on building two units to be fielded. That's the good news, the bad news is that means now I have to commit to a camera choice

 

And lastly, as we're proceeding to the next step, I'd like to establish some sort of relationship with a dealer or distributor that handles the Alaska area. Preference, budget willing to forum members. Any suggestions on how to go about finding reputable ones?

 

As always, thank you for the reasoned advise.

 

Regards,

 

Scott