What is the best exview chip in regard to light sensitivty?

[Joel Grant 0]

Hi guys,

 

Ive got a night vision project I want to do and was thinking of getting this style of camera to mod : 1/3" SONY 960H EXview HAD CCD II 700TVL 0.0003Lux Real-WDR OSD 3D-DNR Sens-Up(X1024) CCTV Video Mini Box Camera (Without Lens) http://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?SearchText=MC-300-11673&catId=0&manual=y

While the camera sounds cool for the price and specs (to me), I'm not sure if there is a better way to go. I really want the best possible low light sensitivity I can get without going much over this price of this camera.

 

I have looked around for about a week now trying to make heads and tails but cant seem to work it out.

 

What exview sensor options are there and what is the best in regard to light sensitivity? Is there a data sheet anywhere that i can comare all of the sensors?

 

I imagine all the low light functions on the above style camera will will help alot but is some othe style out there that is knowen to be better?

 

Also the camera is color, but at night it can switch to B/W, when it does though, does the lux abilty increase as well or is an dedicated B/W camera better? To me thats what it appears the spec's are saying. So in other words, is this color exview sensor capable of doing B/W like a dedicated B/W exview sensor?

 

I under stand there are many different factors.

 

Thanks heaps in advance guys

 

Joel

[Fireball 0]

I'm a bit new to this myself, but have also been looking for the most sensitive CCDs available.

 

Monochrome or B/W only cameras will usually be more sensitive, as will cameras with 1/2" CCDs.

 

Perhaps they are a bit out of your price range, but the Watec cameras seem to have the best sensitivity:

 

Watec WAT-902H2 Ultimate

Min. Illumination: 0.0001 lux - f1.4 lens

 

WATEC WAT-902H2 Supreme

Minimum illumination: 0.0003 lx. F1.4(2), 0.0005 lx. F1.4(3)

 

The Sony HAD 1/2" CCDs are also very good so I hear.

 

Astronomers crave the most sensitive CCDs for imaging meteors, lunar impacts, etc, so I would search using related terms (eg "all sky camera"), and you should find useful info.

 

I found this page quite useful: http://www.kolumbus.fi/oh5iy/astro/Ccd.html

 

Note that some cameras will have a higher sensitivity using the "sense up" feature, but depending what you are trying to do with the camera, using this feature might not be an option for you.

[Horizon 0]

Yep, the Watec 902 is a awesome low light camera, but only does black and white. An advantage is that it doesn't use sense-up, so will view moving objects without motion blur.

Sense-up is a problem in that it uses long exposure times (up to 2.5 seconds for some cameras), so moving objects become a blurry mess. This isn't a problem for Astronomers, as they can lock onto and track the object they are videoing.

[Joel Grant 0]

Thanks guys,

 

The tables were great.

 

So how does sensitivity (MV) relate to actual low light pick up? And what does the Saturation signal [mV] mean in relation to sensitivty?

 

Because while I understand that B/W will be better in low light the tables show that the color sensors actually have a higher mV???? What am I missing?

 

The sensor in the camera i want ( 1/3" SONY 960H EXview HAD CCD II 700TVL 0.0003Lux Real-WDR OSD 3D-DNR Sens-Up(X1024) CCTV Video Mini Box Camera (Without Lens) http://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?SearchText=MC-300-11673&catId=0&manual=y ) has a sensitivity of 2450 mV with a Saturation signal of 600 mV

 

So how should I read all of this?

 

Joel

[Joel Grant 0]

Ok so is the watec LCL 902H ok?

[Fireball 0]

It looks like the LCL has the same sensor as the Watec WAT-902H2 Ultimate, so I'd say it should be fine.

 

I'm just going on that webpage/link I posted in my last post, but it seems that the 902H2 series is about as good as it gets, unless you can afford another $300 for a small improvement in sensitivity.

 

Don't forget that the lens can make quite a big difference too, but the best low light lenses will be more expensive.

 

I've decided to go with the WAT-902H2 Ultimate which looks ideal for my intended purpose. Hope yours works well for you Joel.

[Horizon 0]

Hi Joel.

The aliexpress camera uses a sense-up count of 1024 to get the 0.0003 lux rating. I think such a high count is nearly useless for most applications. It means an exposure time of about 40 seconds (?!), so anything not absolutely stationary will have motion blur.

For the PAL standard you have 25 frames per second (so 0.04 seconds between each frame), and 1024 frames are averaged to create the sense-up image.

I think that's what the 1024x relates to, but 40 seconds seems like an insanely long time, so maybe not?

[Joel Grant 0]

Thanks

 

I cant seem to find any data sheets for the LCL 902k. I think it might be out of production, thats fine cause i can only afford a second hand one, But I need to find out first if all the LCL 902k have the exact same specs so i dont get stung when buying one.

 

Any help please?

 

Joel

[Horizon 0]

Hi Joel.

I can't find much info on the LCL 902k either. Most sites claim 0.00015 lux.

There is one catch with using the Watec cameras - they (or at least the 902H series) have a non-standard pinout for the automatic iris connector. The 902H manual and pinout is here: http://norbain.co.uk/downloads/manuals/902H-1.pdf

Also, this meteor watcher has a comparison of different low light cameras and CCD arrays: http://www.kolumbus.fi/oh5iy/astro/Ccd.html

[Fireball 0]

Horizon,

 

It appears that the 902H series cameras come with an iris connection adapter - see the screenshot of the 902H manual (from your link) I've attached.

 

What I'm wondering is if the pinout of the 902H matches the pinout of the lens (Computar Ganz HG2610FCS from the ccd meteor link) which is shown in the top half of the image I've attached, or is that where the adapter comes in?

[Horizon 0]

Hey Fireball.

I think the Watec 902H is an old camera. It only supports old style video-drive irises, so I reckon the adapter only swaps the pins around. It won't allow it to support dc-drive irises.

I've found the manual for the newer WAT-902H2 here: http://www.jouin.eu/phpBB/images/WAT-902H2_Ultimate.pdf

It looks like they fixed the problem, and also provide support for the newer dc-drive irises as well, so you'd want to use this camera with a dc-drive lens like the Computar Ganz HG2610FCS. Also, the 902H and H2 have 1/2inch imagers, so the lens must be 1/2inch or wider as well (which the Computar is).

 

I have one of the WAT-902H cameras and ran into the iris pinout problem. My solution was to take apart the camera, and rewire the connector. Not something I'd recommend, as it is soldered directly onto the circuit board, and requires fine surgery to cut tracks, and wire in some links. I didn't make up an adapter, because I didn't have the plug and socket. And I was at work, with access to soldering gear, scapels, and a stereo microscope...

[Joel Grant 0]

Yer interesting, good to see at least a similar manual.

 

So do you guys have any idea where I could go to get the history of the changes to these cameras? LCL 902K in perticlar eg. in 2003 the up graded the sensor, in 2007 they added ... etc.

 

The Watec exview cctv's sounds good but as i dont know that much on this subject I need all the help I can get. Are there any other better options for that price range eg. cheap exview in another brand? It appears there are not many setting options on the watec.

 

The video out I imagine can go straight into a PAL tv?

Should it be EIA or CCIR?

 

Also the lens ...ouch... its a 1/2 sensor but if i go for a 1/3 lens I would imagine a black circle (just edges i hope) would be visable, but a part from that will it still let in the same amount of light that the f-stop says? Or are there any superduper places i can get a f1.2 IR Auto iris if possible and maybe zoom as well... without going hungry for the next 6 months!?

 

Joel

[Kawboy12R 0]

I won't argue that it's the best available version (I only have the one camera), but I've never seen a camera better than my KT&C Exview B&W bullet cam for low low low light operation. This thread has a couple of pics comparing my CNB VCM-24VF (well-regarded low-light colour cam) with Mona Lisa chipset to my KT&C. Read the post because the pics don't do the detail from the KT&C justice because of my crappy DVR. Live view is VERY impressive for light sensitivity.

 

I wish someone would make a B&W megapixel IP cam with the same sensitivity. Unfortunately B&W isn't as sexy or saleable as colour even though most colour cams switch to B&W at night anyway.

[Fireball 0]

Thank you Horizon.

 

Joel,

 

Did you have a look on the Watec web site? It should tell you which models were superseded by what.

 

Regarding lenses, I think you are right about what would happen if you mounted a 1/3 format lens on a 1/2 format sensor. The F-stop should stay the same, but the image circle would not cover the entire sensor.

 

There should be plenty of options for buying F1.2 lenses, and plenty of lens feature options. I've come across lenses as fast as F0.8.

 

Try B&H for some ideas:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/

 

This google search should also throw up some more options:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&site=&source=hp&q=ccd+mm+lens&oq=ccd+mm+lens&gs_l=hp.12...11586.20507.0.22770.11.11.0.0.0.0.495.1715.8j1j4-2.11.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.0bf4cXksvBE

[Horizon 0]

Hi Joel.

The kolumbus meteor site has a good comparison on the 902H, H2, and H3 cameras, and some others. The H3 has a 1/3 inch sensor, and is less sensitive. The CCD sensors are also listed on the site.

The main differences he(?) found are the addition of extra features, rather than better low light performance.

 

The KT&C camera Kawboy mentions sounds interesting. I'll keep an watch in case one turns up in an auction.

 

Speaking of auctions, they they are a great place to find extremely cheap broken cameras with good lenses. Keep a watch on ebay and see if anything shows up. Otherwise, aliexpress or dealextreme can be good places to search. Not to sure of their quality though.

[Joel Grant 0]

Thanks Horizon, Fireball nd Kawboy12R

 

Yer I like the KTC but prob the 1/2" is for me

 

I've followed your advice on checking the different sites but still no luck.

 

I Just need to know of the product changes of the LCL 902k so i dont get a old one etc. Hope there all the same but prob not hey. So any ideas please let me know.

 

 

And... is it possible to fit normal camera lenses to a cctv?

 

Joel

[Fireball 0]

I've seen a lens I want from aliexpress. It's been a couple of days since I emailed them, and still no reply.

 

I've bought from DX before too (mainly lasers/laser related products), and been happy with what I've got, but I'm not sure I'd want to risk buying a lens from them. I'm assuming all their lenses are made in China - I haven't looked at what they have.

 

It shouldn't be a problem mounting DSLR/camera lenses. There are adapters available at least for Canon EOS mount lenses, and I'd be surprised if there were not adapters for other lens mounts. Worst case scenario, buy a C mount > EOS adapter, and an EOS > "what ever lens mount you have" adapter.

[Joel Grant 0]

Hi guys

 

So i just bought a LCL 902K.

 

Prob be many weeks before it arrives though.

 

Guess there might be a few questions comming up then.

 

Joel