CROPPING WARNING: Dahua HFW2100, HDW2100, Q-See QCN7001B

[mikey2k 0]

I just purchased several Dahua cameras, 3x HDB3200C, which is a decent 2MP camera for office, as long as you don't need IR.

 

I also purchased the IR model IPC-HFW2100P (P = Pal system) with 3.6mm lens. I made sure I have the latest Firmware installed, 2.100.0000.9.R, build : 2012-06-21

The strange problem I found is when I want to drop the camera's Main Stream to lower resolutions, it doesn't keep transmitting the full frame, it zooms in and crops the picture. This is an unbelievable oversight by their QC department and I certainly hope they know about it and will fix it urgently, as I do need to set all my cameras to D1 (I have 16 and my DVR can only take D1 on 16 channels, not higher) and I can't accept the much more limited field of view that it creates!

Here are screenshots that show the problem and compare to the HDB3200C which isn't affected by this:

 

 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2012 by Guest

[pfcsabre 0]

Have just checked it, you are right hopefully they fix it in the new firmware

[mikey2k 0]

Yeah...

I tested today the dome version of this bullet camera - IPC-HDW2100, and unfortunately it suffers from the same exact problem

[mikey2k 0]

I just noticed the Q-See QCN7001B, which is AFAIK (and please correct me if I am wrong) a re-branded model of this same exact camera, thus probably suffer from the same problem.

Heads up for anyone planning to buy it - check the cropping/zooming problem I wrote about before you purchase!

[buellwinkle 0]

I tried to replicate what you said, and it does crop a little, but not that much. Maybe from 720P to D1 you'll see more cropping as you are changing the aspect ratio, but from 1.3MP to D1 I saw maybe 10% cropping. Maybe it's me, but why would you buy a 1.3MP camera and run it at D1?

 

As for Q-See, you have to first understand that Dahua is just a brand only available in China. If you buy Dahua in the U.S. like on eBay, it's a gray market camera that someone imported themselves from China through a Dahua reseller in China and sells them out of their garage. Dahua voids all warranties in such cases, I checked with them, so caveat emptor. Q-See is a legit company that has been selling Dahua cameras in the U.S. for many years, is available at major retailers in cluding Costco, Frys and others and sells through major distributors like Ingram Micro which is NYSE traded public company, Fortune 100. Sure, you can save a few bucks buying it in China, but is it worth getting an item that's not warrantied when for $150 you can just buy this camera at Costco or if you are an installer, just open an account with Ingram, their customer service is excellent. I've had an account them for 20 years.

 

My concern is that you are expecting Dahua to care about you and fix software bugs where if you bought it gray market, there's no link between you and Dahua. So you have to complain to the guy you bought it from, who may pass the complaint to a reseller in China, who may pass the complaint to Dahua and maybe, just maybe, they'l fix it. OR you can buy it from a legit company with a support staff in the U.S. with direct ties to Dahua and maybe get somewhere, JUST SAYIN!

[mikey2k 0]

I am not in the USA and didn't buy the camera from eBay or the gray market. I live in Asia (not China) and bought it directly from THE official distributor here. Dahua is available in MANY countries outside of China, under their own Dahua brand (Thailand, Singapore, HK, Australia, South America etc.).

 

I am using a 1.3MP camera for D1, simply because I have a 16ch DVR which doesn't accept higher than 16CH x D1 @ 25FPS, and using MP camera normally gives the best PQ you can possibly get with D1, better than any TVL camera at the same price range I tested. In any case, this is a bit off topic.

 

Did you look at ALL the pictures I posted? This is not minor cropping, this is serious cropping on D1 that doesn't suppose to happen, not even slightly, regardless of aspect ratio. The lens is losing a huge amount of angle when dropping resolution.

Changing resolution on cameras supposed to reduce PQ, not "crop and fill" obviously. I am sure if you try to replicate my findings, reducing to D1 - you will see significant cropping, which doesn't happen on any other MP camera that you will test, other than those three Dahua/Q-See models.

As my screenshots also show, the 2MP HDB3200C Dahua Camera doesn't crop anything, it simply reduce the amount of Pixels and thus reduce quality when I changed the resolution, that's proper and how most MP cameras work.

 

I am not expecting Dahua to care about me (I've already contacted them directly via my distributor and hopefully this will be resolved soon, for the benefit of all their customers, including Q-See's), I am merely trying to notify prospects and customers of this severe problem with their products.

Q-See is purchasing and re-branding many Dahua products, using the same exact hardware and firmware in most cases, like other companies. There is nothing wrong with that, it's a common practice in many industries, but if a product suffer from the same issue/s - customers should to be aware of it. Caveat emptor...

 

My concern is that you are expecting Dahua to care about you and fix software bugs where if you bought it gray market, there's no link between you and Dahua. So you have to complain to the guy you bought it from, who may pass the complaint to a reseller in China, who may pass the complaint to Dahua and maybe, just maybe, they'l fix it. OR you can buy it from a legit company with a support staff in the U.S. with direct ties to Dahua and maybe get somewhere, JUST SAYIN!

 

Or I can simply contact them directly via the official distributor that I bought from (as I already did) and keep my fingers crossed that the problem gets fixed, as it should (think positive, my friend...)

Meanwhile, the more people aware of this, the better for us all.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Guest

[buellwinkle 0]

Did not know you are closer to China I do hope they fix the problem for you, but again, I believe most people are using this camera in 720P or 1.3MP mode. Also, if someone with a Q-See camera can complain, it may get additional attention. Be careful with doing a firmware upgrades, I bricked the IP-HFW2100 and I've done plenty of firmware upgrades across many brands of cameras and this is the first bricked camera.

[Zeph 0]

It looks as if this might be a question of square vs distorted pixels.

 

The native sensor may be 1280x960 (1.3M, 4:3 or 16:12) and the image at that resolution shows all there is.

 

At 1280x720 (720p, 16:9) you have only two choices - (1) show the middle 720 rows of 960, or (2) squash the 960 sensors rows vertically into 720, a 4:3 ratio. Some would prefer the wider vertical angle of the latter approach, some would prefer the less distorted square pixels of the former approach; neither approach is right or wrong in any absolute sense, it's a matter of tradeoffs. They chose approach #1, and if they changed it they will get some negative feedback from those preferring the current approach.

 

D1 at 704:576 is also 4:3 like the 1.3M native, so they can scale all the the 1280x960 sensor pixels without distortion; likewise CIF.

 

Yeah, it might be cool if they let you choose how to handle a 16:9 output... but that's beyond the produce envelope apparently.

 

They seem more willing to distort the subchannel pixels.

 

Does this explanation fit your data?

[GrouchoBoucho 0]

I am using a 1.3MP camera for D1, simply because I have a 16ch DVR which doesn't accept higher than 16CH x D1 @ 25FPS, and using MP camera normally gives the best PQ you can possibly get with D1, better than any TVL camera at the same price range I tested. In any case, this is a bit off topic.

 

wait... you're paying extra for a megapixel camera, but then only running the analog output to a regular dvr?? and then complaining because it crops the image?

 

this is not off-topic, this *is* the answer: you're choosing the wrong equipment for the job, and trying to use it in a way it's not designed to work - the fault is *yours* if it's not performing properly, not the manufacturers', not anyone else's.

 

this is stupid on so many levels. it's like buying a v-8 pickup to haul your groceries around, and then complaining because you're spending more on gas than on food.

 

start with analog cameras. if 3.6mm is too tight a view, *put in a wider lens*. better yet, *buy an analog camera with varifocal lens*.

 

better yet, trade up to an nvr or hybrid that will actually make proper use of all those extra pixels, instead of simply counting on them for a miniscule improvement of the analog recording.

[mikey2k 0]

It looks as if this might be a question of square vs distorted pixels.

 

The native sensor may be 1280x960 (1.3M, 4:3 or 16:12) and the image at that resolution shows all there is.

 

At 1280x720 (720p, 16:9) you have only two choices - (1) show the middle 720 rows of 960, or (2) squash the 960 sensors rows vertically into 720, a 4:3 ratio. Some would prefer the wider vertical angle of the latter approach, some would prefer the less distorted square pixels of the former approach; neither approach is right or wrong in any absolute sense, it's a matter of tradeoffs. They chose approach #1, and if they changed it they will get some negative feedback from those preferring the current approach.

 

D1 at 704:576 is also 4:3 like the 1.3M native, so they can scale all the the 1280x960 sensor pixels without distortion; likewise CIF.

 

Yeah, it might be cool if they let you choose how to handle a 16:9 output... but that's beyond the produce envelope apparently.

 

They seem more willing to distort the subchannel pixels.

 

Does this explanation fit your data?

 

No, it doesn't really.

Technically, you are correct, BUT, if you look at the substream - the frame IS full, with no distortions at all at D1/CIF (except for obvious dropped quality due to drop in pixel count), when setting the main to 1.3MP, and it should show the same full-frame pic on the main stream.

Also, if you look at their 2MP Sony Sensor IP camera HDB3200C, you will easily see the full frame on the main stream, no matter what resolution you set, with almost no distortions at all.

So, the point is, they should make the main stream display full lens frame/angle, no matter what resolution/pq setting you choose.

I was told by my distributor they are working on a new firmware that will address that, which should be ready within about 2 months....hopefully

[vector18 1]

Actually, I just tried settting my 1.3mp to D1 and I'm using an NVR, not a DVR and it cropped as well. It may be overkill

using a megapixel IP camera and it's analog output, but that is a different topic here. There must be a technical reason

why it's cropping, but if you think about it, lowering the resolution should only pixlelate the image, not crop it. Here is

what happened to mine when I tried the same thing.

 

[mikey2k 0]

but if you think about it, lowering the resolution should only pixlelate the image, not crop it.

 

 

EXACTLY!

[mikey2k 0]

I am using a 1.3MP camera for D1, simply because I have a 16ch DVR which doesn't accept higher than 16CH x D1 @ 25FPS, and using MP camera normally gives the best PQ you can possibly get with D1, better than any TVL camera at the same price range I tested. In any case, this is a bit off topic.

 

wait... you're paying extra for a megapixel camera, but then only running the analog output to a regular dvr?? and then complaining because it crops the image?

 

this is not off-topic, this *is* the answer: you're choosing the wrong equipment for the job, and trying to use it in a way it's not designed to work - the fault is *yours* if it's not performing properly, not the manufacturers', not anyone else's.

 

this is stupid on so many levels. it's like buying a v-8 pickup to haul your groceries around, and then complaining because you're spending more on gas than on food.

 

start with analog cameras. if 3.6mm is too tight a view, *put in a wider lens*. better yet, *buy an analog camera with varifocal lens*.

 

better yet, trade up to an nvr or hybrid that will actually make proper use of all those extra pixels, instead of simply counting on them for a miniscule improvement of the analog recording.

 

Did you really just call me stupid!?

Your post is stupid on so many levels I don't even know where to begin...

 

1) I am NOT paying extra, these cameras are cheaper than many analog cameras, and I need Network camera, regardless of the pixels. Most network cameras are much more expensive, so I bought this one, and it it is more future proof than buying a D1 camera today and change it to MP in the future.

2) Even if I am only looking for D1, there is no D1 camera that I have seen that shows as good/clear D1 picture quality as a MP camera can/does.

3) This is ALL COMPLETELY off-topic!

[Korgoth Of Barbaria 0]

Hmmmm, same thing in ACTi and IQeye cameras. Never thought about it as a bug.

[mikey2k 0]

Hmmmm, same thing in ACTi and IQeye cameras. Never thought about it as a bug.

 

Which models?

[MaxIcon 0]

My 1MP Vivoteks let you set both the resolution and the view area, so if you wanted to drop to (say) 640x480, you could choose either cropped or sub-sampled.

 

My 5MP Areconts let you select half resolution, which gives the same field of view at half the resolution, and that's it. You can also send detailed command line settings to change image size to a variety of settings, and they crop instead of subsampling.

 

The real weak spot with these Dahuas is the light-weight software. I like their image quality better than my Vivoteks and they cost less, but the software needs a good bit of maturing.

[mikey2k 0]

The real weak spot with these Dahuas is the light-weight software. I like their image quality better than my Vivoteks and they cost less, but the software needs a good bit of maturing.

 

You are absolutely right. Dahua IP cameras do produce good image quality, their prices are usually attractive, but they do have 2 major problems:

1) Their software/firmware is buggy, like in this case.

2) Their updated firmwares can only be obtained from the official distributor. They don't officially offer them for direct download. And this is a major problem.

Most hardware manufacturers do let end-users download updated firmwares, including most camera manufacturers.

I do understand the reason that Dahua (and maybe a few other manufacturers) do that. They are trying to protect and support their official distributors from the gray market importers, but, the end customers suffer from that because we are left to the mercy/support of the official distributor, who not always contact Dahua to obtain the latest firmware and even when the distributor has the latest, he won't easily inform you or install it for you and certainly won't give it to you, because he fear of leaks...

I hope someone from Dahua is reading this and they will start giving better support for their products to end-customers...

[MaxIcon 0]

I hope someone from Dahua is reading this and they will start giving better support for their products to end-customers...

 

Yeah, I was thinking about upgrading a number of my Vivoteks, but this support issue has me backing away from Dahua for now. Whatever their other flaws are, Vivotek has strong, mature software and great download support. Dahua should be paying attention.

[voip-ninja 0]

After reading some of this I am quite glad that I gave Dahua a pass.

[GrouchoBoucho 0]

Did you really just call me stupid!?

actually, no, i called your post stupid. it displays a seriously distorted thought process.

 

2) Even if I am only looking for D1, there is no D1 camera that I have seen that shows as good/clear D1 picture quality as a MP camera can/does.

3) This is ALL COMPLETELY off-topic!

no, it's not. you used mp cameras because you want the best image quality you can get... but then you're crushing that image down to d1. whether it's cropping or not, you're buying high-def cameras and then *intentionally* reducing the image quality.

 

don't be stupid - get an nvr and take full advantage of the cameras' capabilities, and stop whining about stupid $#!t.

[GrouchoBoucho 0]

After reading some of this I am quite glad that I gave Dahua a pass.

good, they're hard enough to come by as it is - more for those of us that actually know what we're doing.

[mikey2k 0]

Did you really just call me stupid!?

actually, no, i called your post stupid. it displays a seriously distorted thought process.

 

2) Even if I am only looking for D1, there is no D1 camera that I have seen that shows as good/clear D1 picture quality as a MP camera can/does.

3) This is ALL COMPLETELY off-topic!

no, it's not. you used mp cameras because you want the best image quality you can get... but then you're crushing that image down to d1. whether it's cropping or not, you're buying high-def cameras and then *intentionally* reducing the image quality.

 

don't be stupid - get an nvr and take full advantage of the cameras' capabilities, and stop whining about stupid $#!t.

 

Oh, so not only stupid, also got a distorted thought process. You also decided for me why I bought the camera, wow, brilliant.

Do us all a favor - pls go troll elsewhere and spare us your ridiculous insights.

[Dotix 0]

Hi There:

 

This is not a bug. IP Megapixel cameras can use different sensors and processors like Aptina (that's the case of Dahua) or Sony ExMor per example.Each CMOS sensor has it's original - and best - resolution, the native resolution. The way each sensor handle the downgrade on resolution WITHOUT "PIXELIZATION" ON THE IMAGE is different. I saw some cameras that has full image on 2MP, crop image on 1.3 and do not crop image in D1. It's a limitation on the sensor and I think Dahua cannot do anything about it.

 

By the way, some DVRs (yes, analog cameras) also crop image when you compare brands - Check different brands and pay attention how different they are.

 

Just think in what-you-pay-what-you-get and sincerely this is a very good camera with good features, resolution for it's price.

[mikey2k 0]

Hi There:

 

This is not a bug. IP Megapixel cameras can use different sensors and processors like Aptina (that's the case of Dahua) or Sony ExMor per example.Each CMOS sensor has it's original - and best - resolution, the native resolution. The way each sensor handle the downgrade on resolution WITHOUT "PIXELIZATION" ON THE IMAGE is different. I saw some cameras that has full image on 2MP, crop image on 1.3 and do not crop image in D1. It's a limitation on the sensor and I think Dahua cannot do anything about it.

 

You clearly didn't see or thoroughly examined all the screenshots I posted.

Dahua software *does* let you see the full frame on any resolution when you are on the sub-stream, hence, the sensor can do that and this is clearly something that Dahua can implement on their MAIN stream and *it is* a serious bug/oversight of their development team.