When the CCTV amateur takes things to the next level

[voip-ninja 0]

I received an interesting PM from a fellow member who wanted to know what I had done to go beyond the "Dahua" level of gear that is very popular with the budget person who needs a small system for their residence or business.

 

After putting the lengthy reply together I thought that perhaps it would be of some use to others... sort of a story of how my initial CCTV system installation of a relatively low budget solution grew into a more substantial system, and, in some ways, turned into a bit of a hobby.

 

So, here it goes;

 

I don't have any direct experience with Dahua. My opinion of them is that they offer a great value if you will not be disappointed in the many limitations of their solution, particularly the low-light performance of their entry level cameras, no camera local storage (important if the DVR gets stolen, or goes down), the more obvious look of bullet cameras vs dome cameras, etc.

 

My home is about a $.5M property with about $50k-$75k in property to protect (furnishings, electronics, firearms, jewelry). I prefer putting my own system in rather than paying some alarm company $50-$75 a month for a basic "break in" alarm that won't do crap about catching anyone doing anything bad. My view is that I deter thieves and miscreants as well as potentially catch someone in the act of doing something and be able to have the cops follow-up... to me this is better than paying some alarm monitoring company, who at most calls the cops after the thieves who broke in are long gone. Ideally I suppose one should have both systems.

 

I am frequently away from the home and have many packages delivered (thousands in merchandise every year), housekeepers showing up, dog walker, etc, so for me the CCTV and ability to monitor away from home is a very big deal.

 

I should point out that I live in a very nice and "safe" neighborhood, where the typical thing caught on CCTV are dog walkers and cars driving by. I think the worst thing that has happened in the past couple of years is when some hoodlums "tagged" a neighbor's fence 1/2 a block away. I view the CCTV as a deterrent to these kind of things and I'm the only person within probably 3 blocks who has one. My neighbor's, I am sure, think I am crazy for spending money on this stuff.

 

For my home, I started out with three Panasonic BB-HCM511a PTZ box cameras (well I started out with one at my front door and thought it was neat, so added a second and then a third camera over the course of a year). These cameras were about $400 each and do basic 640x480 VGA. I originally used Blue Iris ($50) running on an old HP Windows Home Server (EX495) to do the video recording. The problem with this solution is that I had poor access from mobile devices (could not view events, etc), the Blue Iris on that low spec machine could only record at low resolution (with crappy motion detection ability for pre-event frames) and the video quality was not very good. Also, the Panasonic cameras have a very limited field of view and pretty non-existent night vision.

 

Fast forward a bit and I deploy a Synology NAS that I use for home network storage, and it also has a built in basic NVR that is pretty good (better in many ways than Blue Iris). Camera licenses are about $45 a pop but I find a 4 channel camera license on eBay for $130. I upgrade the camera at the front of the residence to a Vivotek FD8361 that is much higher resolution and has better night vision performance, this camera costs $500-$600.

 

I then replaced the remaining two Panasonic cameras with Samsung SNV-5080R dome cameras that have built in IR and very good low light performance. These cameras cost $575 each. These cameras do an awesome job at a door/entry area as they have very good built in IR performance (for a small area) and good night vision.

 

I am still not that impressed with the Vivotek FD8361 at my main location that covers the entire front of the property, so I try to augment the built in IR with an Axton AT7 IR Illuminator ($200). This improves things but clearly the Vivotek is just not a low light champ (the Samsungs are noticeably better). I want a "really good" camera for this front home location and so after finding out that I can get a $900 Axis P3364-VE from an Amazon seller for $449, I order one.

 

The Axis camera works great and with the external IR it's like having flood lights on at night in the front of the house, so I order a 2nd Axis camera for the one "unprotected" spot at my residence, the side yard which has a lot of windows with access to the home. This camera has not yet shown up. There are street lights on this side of the home so I think the Axis will perform okay with no external IR (It's night vision capability is quite good).

 

So, at the end of the day, this is what I have;

 

2X Axis P3364-VE = 2 x $449

2X Samsung SNV-5080R = 2 x $575 (worth mention I "needed" this anyway for home file storage and backups)

1 x Synology NVR (plus licenses) = $600 (or more depending on model) (worth mention I "needed" this anyway for home file storage and backups)

1 x Axton AT7 90 degree FOV illuminator = $210

Various power supplies, PoE injectors, memory cards, etc = $150.

 

So, I've got a total system cost here of close to $3000 and my system is probably on par with what would be considered entry to mid level for professional level systems for a residence or small office.

 

The reason I'm still looking at NVR software is that the Synology does a pretty admirable job, but it only really works well with MJPEG video format which chews up a lot of network storage and bandwidth. Also, I have found that their web viewer application is not very good when trying to use it outside of my home network, not to mention that it does not work with Mac OS X as of the last OS X update that removed Java, etc.

 

I am going to try ExacqVision software and Avigilon sometime in the next couple of weeks (closer to Xmas holidays when I have lots of spare time), to see if they are "better enough" than my Synology to justify the $200-$400 software price.

 

At the end of the day you could say that this has turned into a bit of a hobby for me.... so I've gone a bit beyond a "basic" setup.

 

This is not a dig on anyone who goes with a budget Dahua setup, I'm just providing some info on how my system has evolved from a very basic setup a few years ago into something a little more robust.

[Peter_ 2]

Nice breakdown!

 

I find the Synology Camera viewer for the iPhone not real reliable. I access the Diskstation via its built in VPN client, then use an app (QCamPro in my case) to view the cameras - albeit not all the recordings, but the live images for piece of mind.

 

I'm interested to see what you decide about the NVR software though.

[voip-ninja 0]

The iPhone app for me is very reliable, but only if you use MJPEG for both live view and recording formats. If you use MPEG4/H264 it is extremely problematic resulting in having to log out and back into the app to do things.

[dexterash 0]

just my opinion, but if you'ld of used a full DAHUA solution maybe you'ld have passed over more of your problems...

 

for instance, all DAHUA IPC (ip cameras) do support local storage (via microSD) and DAHUA even offers a software for scheduled backup

 

secondly, for 500$/camera you could get a 2MP FullHD Varifocal with IR Bullet DAHUA IP camera (or around)

 

and for 600$ for a NVR... well, if you get a 3216-P you'll get a full solution (a NVR with PoE integrated) with clients for Windows, Linux and Mac and also clients for all mobile devices... no fuss with switches, power supplies etc

[voip-ninja 0]

I'm sure you're onto something with Dahua being a better value but other products exist for a reason. For one thing, bullet cameras are ALWAYS cheaper than domes. This is a fact. However I need dome cameras because the community association where I live does not look fondly on things like bullet cameras pointed all over the place... the wife also does not like it to look like we live in a fortified compound. Also, I need cameras that have very good performance in low temps. I have observed that most budget/cheap cameras indicate they only work down to 32 F. Do they go lower? Maybe... maybe not, but if the manufacturer does not give a lower value then it's a crapshoot. All of the cameras I have chosen are capable of 0F or lower temperatures which is necessary when you live at 6200 feet altitude near the Rocky mountains.

 

You're also missing something when I point out the $600 cost of my Synology NAS. It is a full network storage device that serves content to all of the devices in my house. I would have purchased it regardless of my needs for NVR use, it just happened to have that capability. The advantage of using it as an NVR is that I don't need another server/box in the home sucking juice.

 

If you want to contend that I went overkill with my solution then please provide some full motion video from a Dahua camera with integrated IR in complete darkness. The few videos that I have seen are not particularly impressive.

 

What mobile applications are available for Dahua solutions that offer the ability not only to monitor live feeds but also play back recording clips from specific time intervals?

 

As I said originally, I don't have any experience with Dahua.... so if someone wants to send me a Dahua system I would be happy to try it out and see if it beats the system I already have. Obviously everyone is also entitled to their own opinion about cost/value in a security system. Obviously Dahua stuff is extremely popular here, and probably for a reason, but saying that the Dahua 2MP is going to perform better than a 1MP Axis camera leaves me extremely skeptical... in fact, I don't believe it.

[lowpro 0]

Are you going to continue to use the additional illuminator? How does it look without it now that you the newer cameras?

[voip-ninja 0]

Are you going to continue to use the additional illuminator? How does it look without it now that you the newer cameras?

 

The picture from the Axis without the external IR is still quite good. It does a really exceptional job of light collecting in my terrible environment.

 

However, there is no question that the IR illuminator takes it to a whole new level. You can actually read license plates and even do basic facial identification of people walking along the sidewalk 40-50 feet away when using the Axton IR.

 

As far as the Samsung's, they do quite a good job with their integrated IR for the relatively small areas they are lighting.

[MaxIcon 0]

for instance, all DAHUA IPC (ip cameras) do support local storage (via microSD) and DAHUA even offers a software for scheduled backup

 

I don't think the 2100 series (1.3MP mini-bullets and domes) have uSD cards.

[voip-ninja 0]

Well they have a lot of limitations, such as fixed lenses, no auto iris, or decent WDR, just to name a few.

 

Dahua does build "better" cameras, but they then get closer in cost to the cameras from the big guys.

 

Dahua I'm sure has products that are very suitable for many home deployments, I just don't think they are well suited to mine.

[GrouchoBoucho 0]

For one thing, bullet cameras are ALWAYS cheaper than domes. This is a fact.

it's not, actually, but you feel free to believe what you wish.

 

Also, I need cameras that have very good performance in low temps. I have observed that most budget/cheap cameras indicate they only work down to 32 F. Do they go lower? Maybe... maybe not, but if the manufacturer does not give a lower value then it's a crapshoot. All of the cameras I have chosen are capable of 0F or lower temperatures which is necessary when you live at 6200 feet altitude near the Rocky mountains.

don't confuse a manufacturer's temp specs with what a camera will actually withstand. as an example, iq511s claim operational temps from 0-40 celcius, but i have some in operation in housings in edmonton and northern bc, where it can hit -40 easily, and they keep running without fail. keep in mind that all electronics generate their own heat, and in any sealed (ip64 or better) enclosure, much of the heat is retained inside.

[voip-ninja 0]

I am aware of budget dome cameras, but in all the cameras I have compared, dome cameras with the same capabilities have cost more than their bullet counterparts.

 

A bullet camera would have a sealed design more conducive to low temp operation than a dome. It's admirable that you have dome cameras without heaters operating at -40F but if the cameras did not need heaters then manufacturers would not equip them with heaters. Obviously if you stuff a camera in a sealed exterior enclosure you might not need heaters.

[GrouchoBoucho 0]

if the cameras did not need heaters then manufacturers would not equip them with heaters

heaters are put in cameras and housings to combat condensation, not to keep the electronics warm.

 

It's admirable that you have dome cameras without heaters operating at -40F

did i say that? no, i did not. i specifically mentioned iq511s in sealed housings. not that there's any functional difference between that and a sealed dome, or a sealed bullet.

 

Obviously if you stuff a camera in a sealed exterior enclosure you might not need heaters.

a sealed housing is a sealed housing - whether it's a box camera in a separate enclosure, or just the bare electronics stuck in a dome- or bullet-shaped enclosure, the functional result is the same: the electronics generate heat, the enclosure holds it in. once again, the heaters are not there to keep the workings warm; they're there to keep the housing warm and thus prevent condensation.

[Digiscan 0]

Interesting thread!

 

You're way ahead of me.

 

FWIW I have a Dahua 3200 IPC dome or whatever the heck it is, the 2 megapixel one that's fairly new. I'm extremely pleased with it (placed outside currently, and my winter temps will get below its specified range, but I am hoping [and frankly expecting] that it will be fine). Its night time is quite poor, but not too egregious with outside ambient light (not IR, though).

 

Dahua's iphone/ipad app is a catastrophe. I hardly ever have been able to get it to work, even while on the local network. Just can hardly ever connect to the camera for real-time viewing. Just worthless to be honest. If I'm ever outside of the home and want to check on something I FTP, but as I have no NVR software at all it's a bit of a stab in the dark to find anything meaningful.

 

Since my budget is low I now have two dropcam HD cameras and for the cost I'm very happy with them. Dropdead easy as heck to use and install, automatic off-site storage, low price, very acceptable picture quality for indoors. Built in IR at night, but that said the night vision is quite poor and movement is blurred to heck.

[voip-ninja 0]

There is no question that the 3200 is an excellent value camera. $200 for a 1080P PoE camera that has decent image quality when the scene is well lit is hard to argue with.

 

For me, low light performance was at least as important, if not more so, than the performance with great lighting and since a lot of my property is shaded heavily even during the day, WDR and great exposure adjustments (good auto iris performance) was a must.

 

It really comes down to ones expectation in a product. I decided that I would cough up the extra dough to get something that had very good night time performance and had some other image adjustment features such as WDR, auto iris, varifocal lens, etc.

 

Reliability is also a concern for me. After handling the Axis cameras for example I see why they offer such a good warranty. They are built like tanks and clearly designed to operate for years with little to no maintenance.... it's hard to say if the Dahua will hold up as well or will turn out to be "disposable" units that bite the dust after a couple of years (and who knows maybe by then 5MP versions are the same $200 price).

 

Honestly if the P3364-VE had not dropped to the price it had dropped to I likely would have bought another couple of Samsung NVR-5080R cameras, they are also quite good.

[Digiscan 0]

and who knows maybe by then 5MP versions are the same $200 price

At the rate things are going I think they might

 

You basically stole those Axis cameras. I don't see any others close to that price!

[voip-ninja 0]

and who knows maybe by then 5MP versions are the same $200 price

At the rate things are going I think they might

 

You basically stole those Axis cameras. I don't see any others close to that price!

 

Indeed. They are no longer available at that price, I got a great buy on them for sure.

[Kawboy12R 0]

I bought his last two. Should've bought more but I was waiting to see if he had any of the 12mm version. By then only two left. Darn.

[voip-ninja 0]

Yeah it's all a bit mysterious. Hopefully no one comes looking for them.

[Kawboy12R 0]

I think the proper term is fortuitous.