Synology and Vivotek fisheye camera

[benAu 0]

Hi,

 

My first post here and I am pretty new to all this.

 

I am looking at setting up an IP camera system at my work place which is a school. The current system is almost useless as you can't see faces even if people stand in front of the cameras.

 

After much research I have got it down to using a Synology server for the NVR and possible Vivotek or Acti IP Cameras. Image quality is important for us and they need to be water/vandal proof.

 

After looking at videos I can't work out if the Vivotek FE8172V 360 degree camera (http://www.vivotek.com/web/product/ProductDetail.aspx?Model=FE8172V) or any other 360 degree cameras will suite our needs.

 

Eg

We have an outdoor walkway split 4 ways (up, down, left and right) with fairly poor night lighting. If we had the above camera set up in the ceiling where the 4 walkways meet. Would it be able to see down each walkway about 30 meters or would it only be capturing the immediate area around the camera? Are we better off getting fixed dome camera's?

 

Additionally

Keeping in mind we want a fairly clear image up to about 20 meters from the camera, would 2MP fixed dome cameras be enough or should I just pay more for 4/5MP ones?

 

Thanks for any help

Ben

[voip-ninja 0]

You need a minimum amount of pixels for facial identification, higher end cameras have tools that help you determine if you are getting this pixel count of a given target.

 

I don't have experience with ACTi but I understand they are pretty good. How much lighting do you have in the areas where you want to record people? Vivotek night time performance is pretty poor. Axis cameras in the same locations provide amazing light collection and a useable picture at night with relatively poor illumination.

 

How many people need access to the system? Synology works well for extremely small deployments but it's probably not cut out for the more serious stuff.

[benAu 0]

There is some yellow lights in the outdoor hallways which provide decent to poor lighting.

 

The system will only be accessed to see recorded footage from 1 person. No one will actually be watching the live streams, it will probably eventually scale up to 20 cameras.

 

Would 360 degree fish eye cameras mounted in ceilings be able to see down the hallways?

 

Would you recommend the Acti http://www.acti.com/product/detail/Dome_Camera/KCM-7911 over the Vivotek one or is night time performance going to be bad on both these cameras?

 

The Axis cameras are a bit to much for us

 

Thanks for the advice,

[buellwinkle 0]

I've used fisheye cameras before and here's what I can tell you. With a Mobotix 3MP fisheye, I can ID someone standing exactly 10' away. Why, because if they are too close you see the tops of their heads, if they are further, you can't really ID them. 5MP 360 degree dome would be better, maybe 15'. Also, before you write Axis off as being too expensive, did you know they will soon have a 5MP indoor 360 degreee camera for about $500 list price and also come as a vandal resistant version for not much more. Also, many of their new cameras can write directly to a NAS, way cheaper than an NVR or PC with software to record.

 

So the question is, when you say you want to look 20m or 30m, does that mean you want to ID someone's face at that distance or just see that an event took place, meaning that someone entered a room wearing a blue shirt, but not necesarily tell who they are? Imagine this, with a 360 degree lens, a person face at 20m will be about 1 pixel in size (no eyes, nose, ears, just one dot to represent their head). If all you want to do is see that a person entered a room, not be able to tell who they are then a 360 degree dome may work. Personally as a brand, I like ACTi better than Vivotek, better service, better free NVR software, better made cameras.

 

Then the next possibility is being able to ID someone 20-30m away, good luck with that one. Use a CCTV lens calculator to figure this out first. There's an easy to use one at http://cctvlenscalculator.com/ Enter in the lens, distances, height of camera, resolution and it will tell you face width in pixels. Figure you need 40px width to ID someone and maybe 20px width to recognize someone (subtle difference meaning if you know the person and you saw his 20px width face, you can tell who it is, but not likely be able to ID a stranger). Just a quick head openner, with a 5MP camera, at 20 meters with a 6mm lens (mild telephoto), you are at 19px face width.

 

I would say you have to be realistic in your expectations and 20-30m is way out there to ID someone and also work closer up. One thing to consider is Axis has what they call Corridor Mode, meaning the camera can record sideways. Meaning at 1080P camera, normally 1920 x 1080 pixels can be set sideways to record 1080 x 1920. What does this mean to you? You get double the effective pixels looking down the narrow corridor, meaning you that with that 2MP camera, you are as well off as a 5MP camera that can't do coridor mode. Even their 1MP cameras can do 1280 x 720 in Corridor Mode, you have the effective pixel height better than a 2MP camera.

 

Also, the way pro's setup a camera system, they may use a 360 degree camera to get an overview of events taking place. Then have cameras placed at what's called choke points to capture close up images of their face. Choke points are places where a subject has to pass through to get to where he's going. So say at each entrance to the school, you capture an image of the person going in/out of the school that has a clear image of the person, clothes he's wearing, facial recognition. Then the job of the other cameras in the school are there to capture an event with enough resolution where you can recognize someone from the closeup camera images.

[thewireguys 3]

In the last month I have been testing the Acti, Mobotix and Axis 360 cameras. I did not like the image quality of the Acti camera and it is only a 1080P images FYI. Mobotix Q24 has been installed on the front of my house for the last couple of years and I have been happy with the image it delivered. Axis is higher resolution and lower bandwidth and 12 FPS so right now it is my new favorite.

 

[benAu 0]

Thanks for the detailed response.

 

I suspected the 360 degree cameras work as you said. I think if I install one in the area used in the previous example it should be usable as the doors people are damaging aren't directly under where the camera will be and aren't that far away either. It will be a good place for us to test if they are an ideal solution. Are the 360 degree cameras better at giving a clear face image when placed on a wall rather then a ceiling?

 

Normally what happens at this school, people will graffiti/damage half way down the hallways which is about 20/30 meters, then walk towards the cameras which allows them to get really close. The current camera system is still to blurry even when they are a few meters away

 

Do you know if Axis will have an outdoor version of that camera? We kinda of want to start getting equipment in within the next 2 months so I suspect it won't be out soon enough for us.

 

The hallways normally have a decent to poor yellow light running after hours. Would it be best to get cameras with IR LEDS?

 

Ideally if we can ID a face within 10 meters, but have a clear shot of the persons body and what they are doing at the 20/30 meter mark it should be fine.

 

I will probably get 1 5MP 360 degree camera, 1 5MP IR LED fixed dome camera and 1 lower res fixed dome camera and see which how well each one works for us.

 

Are brickcom are good brand?

 

Thanks again.

[buellwinkle 0]

When you put a 360 camera on the wall, they usually have an option to make a wide 180 degree panorama, at least the Mobotix and ACTi I've seen do that. The Axis is indoor only as far as I know, haven't seen any announcement to the contrary. Also, Geovision has a 5MP fisheye dome.

 

Be careful with 3rd party software like Synology and 360 degree cameras. Many will only record as a fisheye and not do perspective correction to make 4 seperate views, one for each corridor. Make sure the camera is capable of correcting inside the camera and sending out each correct section as a stream. I think that was one of ACTi abilities with 6 avalable streams. Check out the spec sheet for the camera and you can ask Ando on the forum, he's an ACTi engineer.

[thewireguys 3]

There is no need to dewarp the image when it mounted on the wall. Also I would recommend keeping the image dewarped so you are recording the full image. If you switch the camera to 180 panorama or quad view you are only recording what you are seeing with most systems so you will have dead spots. Mobotix can recording the full fisheye image and the client software can dewarp the recorded image that way you are recording everything not just what you are looking at.

 

With the ACTI camera it was not able to spit out the full fisheye image only dewarped views which I don't like because you are missing alot of the FOV. So whatever the view you had set on the camera is what the VMS recorded. And again ACTI says it's a 4MP camera but it only spits out 1080P.

 

Also image quality from Axis was MUCH better then ACTi and the Axis version is cheaper.

[buellwinkle 0]

Also image quality from Axis was MUCH better then ACTi and the Axis version is cheaper.

 

But Axis does not have an outdoor version and it's not day/night so I would expect to pay more for those features. I asked about getting an Axis M3007-PV to review but they told me last month they were not out yet.

 

I realize that when you dewarped the circle you may lose a slight amount as it has to take a round image and make it square, but it's trivial as it's near the edge, at least that was my experience with the Mobotix. What's cool with ACTi is you can use the motion detection zones or alarm inputs from one camera to trigger a PTZ. For example, you can have their PTZ zoom in quickly on the alarm pull box if someone pulls the alarm even if it's a different camera the alarm is attached to. You can also have the fisheye camera motion detect zones trigger the PTZ to get a closeup.

[thewireguys 3]

I used the Acti for about 2 weeks and tested it right next to the Mobotix Q24. Yes it was B/W but the image was bad at night. I had it mounted outside along with Mobotix and Mobotix image was way better and just because the camera is day/night doesn't mean it is better in low light.

 

 

FYI Axis can trigger the PTZ cameras too but this is a feature that has very little real world use especially if used outdoors.

[buellwinkle 0]

I agree, their 4MP sensor is not the best but with adequate light it may be usable. I'm thinking the PTZ can be used with some hard alarm inputs, like kids that pull the fire alarm to get out of taking a test, someone that opens a door they shouldn't, maybe someone with an assault rifle shooting out a window to break into a school. Sort of use tried and true alarm sensors like window breakage detectors into a PTZ that can get to the heart of the action, maybe even send an alert picture to principal. Stuff that's tangible, not video motion detect, that would be a waste in this case.

[thewireguys 3]

OK so what happens when the switch gets shootout and malfunctions? The user will be unable to operate the camera because his controls will be stepped on.

[thewireguys 3]

Acti-3911 Cropped a little on the bottom.

 

[buellwinkle 0]

When you say the ACTi camera works at 1080P, you mean when you switch from 360 degree view to 180 degree view or always 1080P?

[thewireguys 3]

When you say the ACTi camera works at 1080P, you mean when you switch from 360 degree view to 180 degree view or always 1080P?

 

Max resolution is 1080P there is no 360 view

[benAu 0]

But it says 180/360 on the product page.

Acti KCM-7911

Main Features

• 1/2.5" Progressive Scan CMOS

• Day and night function with mechanical IR cut filter

• Minimum illumination 0.06 lux at F2.8

• 180°/360° panorama and ePTZ view

• Built-in f1.05 mm / F2.8 Megapixel Fisheye lens

• 6 fps at 2032 x 1920 resolution

• Selectable H.264, MPEG-4 SP, MJPEG compressions with dual streaming

• Up to 6 cropped regions as independent channels

• Two-way audio

• Video motion detection

• Digital input and digital output

• ExDR ( Extreme Dynamic Range)

• 2D+3D Digital Noise Reduction

• MircoSD/ MircoSDHC card slot for local storage

• Powered by PoE Class 3 / DC 12V

• Weatherprrof IP66 rated casing

 

Does two way audio mean the camera records audio or does it mean it only has support for it?

 

The vivotek one sounds better on paper.

Vivotek FE8172V

5-Megapixel CMOS Sensor

30 fps @ 1080p Full HD

1.05 mm Fisheye Lens for 180° Panoramic View and 360° Surround View

Removable IR-cut Filter for Day & Night Function

EN50155 Compliance for Professional Mobile Surveillance

Real-time H.264, MPEG-4, and MJPEG Compression (Triple Codec)

WDR Enhancement for Unparalleled Visibility in Extremely Bright or Dark Environments

Vandal-proof IK10-rated and Weather-proof IP66-rated Housing

ePTZ for Data Efficiency

Built-in 802.3af Compliant PoE

Built-in MicroSD/SDHC/SDXC Card Slot for On-board Storage

Pixel Counter for Image Clarity Measurement

5-window video motion detection

[thewireguys 3]

180 mode:

 

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Double Panorama:

 

 

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