Constructing new hotel what kind of wiring should I use?

[gunthonungo2 0]

The building has been framed and electricians are running wiring...I need help with the entire system design but the most important thing is... do I use cat5e wiring or should I run traditional Siamese to everything? I want to get this part done before the sheet rock is done.

 

 

The building is long and it's a "U" shaped exterior corridor property.... some of my runs could easily be up to 550 or 600 feet..... but that will only be 2 or 3 of the cams.

 

I'm thinking I need somewhere between 16 and 32 cameras to cover all the blind spots, parking lot, reception, etc...

 

Also should I go IP cameras? or traditional cameras and what would be a good DVR or hybrid DVR to go with. I am fine with splitting the recording into two 16 channel DVR's if needed....

 

 

If you need me to answer any other questions about it please let me know.

 

Thanks

 

Any and all help is appreciated. So thanks to everyone in advance.

[Firefighter 0]

I'll throw in my .02 cents until a real expert does.

But having a business like this where cctv is such a serious investment

you should consult a local cctv expert in your area.

 

Throw traditional analog out the window. IP MP cameras only.

 

On the corners you should be running High Quality PTZ's.... And for the rest of the cameras

Depending on what size area their covering 2mp, 3mp, 5mp....

 

 

Cat5, Maybe even cat6 for future use down the road.

 

You should expect to spend $5,000 per HQ IP MP PTZ. And a grand on each fixed camera.

 

If you find a quality installer, they will be able to create a map and plan for your system before install etc....

 

But, I thought I'd chime in until some one else does.

[ilk 0]

The building has been framed and electricians are running wiring...I need help with the entire system design but the most important thing is... do I use cat5e wiring or should I run traditional Siamese to everything? I want to get this part done before the sheet rock is done.

 

 

The building is long and it's a "U" shaped exterior corridor property.... some of my runs could easily be up to 550 or 600 feet..... but that will only be 2 or 3 of the cams.

 

I'm thinking I need somewhere between 16 and 32 cameras to cover all the blind spots, parking lot, reception, etc...

 

Also should I go IP cameras? or traditional cameras and what would be a good DVR or hybrid DVR to go with. I am fine with splitting the recording into two 16 channel DVR's if needed....

 

 

If you need me to answer any other questions about it please let me know.

 

Thanks

 

Any and all help is appreciated. So thanks to everyone in advance.

 

Plan to zone the site and run fibre to each location where remote switches (maybe space for UPS) can be securly installed. Then run CAT6 locally from there.

 

This will provide a degree of future proofing and allow the fibre back bone to be used for other services (BMS, Access Control, Fire alarm, Wifi etc)

 

Always use cable with LSOH sheath or whatever is required by the local building regulations.

 

Ilkie

[jeromephone 6]

CAt 6 and like the other poster said work it out so you can get your runs to 300' or less for POE. I think cat 5 is a mistake as who knows what is going to be running on the network next year. Again check code for requirements of plenum or non plenum.

[GrouchoBoucho 0]

I'll throw in my .02 cents until a real expert does.

But having a business like this where cctv is such a serious investment

you should consult a local cctv expert in your area.

...

If you find a quality installer, they will be able to create a map and plan for your system before install etc....

this. you're looking at a major installation if you want to cover this site properly, and because it's for your business, you should allot the money to do it right the first time; a half-assed diy job will only end up costing more in the long run.

 

now, that said, there's some good but conflicting advice above.

 

Throw traditional analog out the window. IP MP cameras only.

not necessarily. there are still instances where analog cameras shine. but *do* wire everything with utp (cat5e or cat6), analog or not, so cameras can be upgraded to ip later.

 

On the corners you should be running High Quality PTZ's.

*only* if you'll have someone monitoring them on a regular basis. a ptz on a tour is of little use, as it continually sweeps past whatever item or event of interest there may be. ptzs are rarely worth the cost unless there's a human at the other end to drive them.

 

Plan to zone the site and run fibre to each location where remote switches (maybe space for UPS) can be securly installed. Then run CAT6 locally from there.

 

This will provide a degree of future proofing and allow the fibre back bone to be used for other services (BMS, Access Control, Fire alarm, Wifi etc)

this is strong advice. fibre may be overkill, but you do want to break the installation into 'zones' if some runs are going to be over 300'. it's not a problem for analog, but will be for network.

 

having the electricians pull in extra runs at the same time gives you extra capacity for other things, as ilk mentions, and doesn't cost a lot more to do at the time.

 

CAt 6 and like the other poster said work it out so you can get your runs to 300' or less for POE.

300' has nothing to do with poe. *ethernet* runs on UTP are limited to 100m (330') by spec. depending on a camera's power requirements, poe will actually carry much farther than that.

 

breaking the site into 'zones' as ilk suggests allows you to keep runs within this limitation. i'd recommend terminating in patchbays at the 'midpoints' between zones, so it's easy to switch between analog, ip, or whatever else you want to use a run for.

 

I think cat 5 is a mistake as who knows what is going to be running on the network next year.

cat5e is designed for up to gigabit speeds. 10GbE requires cat6, but i suspect the network here will be a long way off from needing that. go with cat6 if you can get a good price on it (and on its terminations), but don't think cat5e is obsolete just yet.

 

Again check code for requirements of plenum or non plenum.

this above all. if you have a good licensed electrician doing the cabling, he should know what to use. he'll want to make sure he has any appropriate permits as well (some jurisdictions lump it in with other low-voltage like phone and security, others require a specific cctv permit).

[ChrisP 0]

I give kudos to all the posters who are giving advice. If you are doing low voltage cabling for such a high dollar amount project like a hotel you need a project manager who should draft the right requirements.

 

Like the last poster said its not just about cctv cabling, you are going to run cables for a lot more things.

[cctvmann 0]

id tend to go analogue run on coax and power on cat5 for the simple reasons that iup cctv is only just in its early stages of development and this needs careful consideration when choosing ip over analogue with analogue some of the cctv especially 700tvl is very good quality cctv and this is a better cost to ip. if you run a coax and cat5 you have the best of both worlds because its easy for the future to upgrade to complete ip but while ip is new technology analogur is slightly more stable.

[GrouchoBoucho 0]

id tend to go analogue run on coax and power on cat5 for the simple reasons that iup cctv is only just in its early stages of developmen

you're kidding, right? their regular use for cctv may be recent, but the concept of baluns has been around for decades - we were using them to convert ota tv signals between 300-ohm antenna twinlead and 50-ohm coax... oh, at least 35 years ago (and I know they've been around for a lot longer than that).

[gunthonungo2 0]

i want to thank everyone for their advice....here is what i have planned out so far....

 

used cat5e for all the runs and have split them into two sections so that hopefully all runs are 100m or less..i will have my entire camera network running on its own seperate from my computer network so that it doesnt eat up bandwidth...and then, 700 or so tvl analog cameras and possibly a few ip cams... I am looking at 28 to 32 cameras....what would be a good dvr to get? a hybrid that does 16 each IP and analog? or two 16 channel dvr's or what? Full D1 is preferred..

 

and thank you to everyone once again.

[ak357 0]

i want to thank everyone for their advice....here is what i have planned out so far....

 

used cat5e for all the runs and have split them into two sections so that hopefully all runs are 100m or less..i will have my entire camera network running on its own seperate from my computer network so that it doesnt eat up bandwidth...and then, 700 or so tvl analog cameras and possibly a few ip cams... I am looking at 28 to 32 cameras....what would be a good dvr to get? a hybrid that does 16 each IP and analog? or two 16 channel dvr's or what? Full D1 is preferred..

 

and thank you to everyone once again.

 

Good decision on separate subnet for cameras !

X number IP encoders for Analog and then u can add IP cams any time

that what I call building infrastructure for future

have a look at Avigilon

[gunthonungo2 0]

forgot to ask...any recommendations on good POE injector switches?

[jeromephone 6]

I see there is some difference of opinion on my reccommendation of going to cat 6 I still stand on that for a couple of reasons a lot of cat 6 is 23 gauge wire and the new standards are going to address not just speed and bandwidth but current carrying ability. Eventually the goal is to have the ability to charge batteries and power larger draw equipment. So for the difference in costs I would still install cat 6 and as a company who mainly does cable installs we have not installed any cat 5e in the past two years not because we would not but because all the specks we have seen have been for cat6. If you are looking at fiber which may be a good idea be sure to speck 50 micron MM. As for the POE question I am a little confused I know you could but a poe midspan but how does POE work on a link over 328 feet. I can see how power could exceed that but what does that link that is out of length do to your network? If you have to certify the install it won't pass.

[tomcctv 190]

I see there is some difference of opinion on my reccommendation of going to cat 6 I still stand on that for a couple of reasons a lot of cat 6 is 23 gauge wire and the new standards are going to address not just speed and bandwidth but current carrying ability

 

 

cat 5 or cat 6 will do the job...... no reason not to use cat5 (put money on it the rest of hotel network is on cat5)

 

if current is going to be a problem in future use cat5 18

[GrouchoBoucho 0]

I see there is some difference of opinion on my reccommendation of going to cat 6 I still stand on that for a couple of reasons a lot of cat 6 is 23 gauge wire and the new standards are going to address not just speed and bandwidth but current carrying ability.

the difference between 23 and 24 gauge isn't *that* great.

 

As for the POE question I am a little confused I know you could but a poe midspan but how does POE work on a link over 328 feet. I can see how power could exceed that but what does that link that is out of length do to your network? If you have to certify the install it won't pass.

this makes no sense. a poe injector just passes the ethernet straight through while "injecting" power on the run (hence the name) - it's not an ethernet extender; the entire segment still has to be under 100m *total* for the ethernet to work. you could *get* a combined ethernet extender/poe injector, although a basic poe switch would probably be cheaper while providing the same function.

 

so, your ethernet segment still has to be under 100m... poe nominally runs around 44vdc at up to 15.4w (about 350ma) over two pairs... so for max draw at max length, you're looking at about 1.2v loss over 24ga., or 1.0v over 23ga. 802.3af specifies that the end device should be able to operate on anything from 37 to 57 vdc.

 

in short: it's not possible for 24ga. to drop the voltage enough over 100m for a poe device to not work, and poe considerations have *zero* to do with choosing 23 vs 24ga.

 

the same math applies to 802.3at which specs up to 34.2w - these are *designed to work over cat5e at its maximum length*.

[gunthonungo2 0]

I would have used cat6, but the price I got on cat5e (solid, bare copper not CCA) was 40 dollars a roll and the best I could get on cat6 was 110 dollars a roll so I went with cat5e because the cost savings could be put into the DVR or a few of the cameras. I think we ended up running something like 8 to 10 thousand feet of wire but none should be longer than 100m as far as I know. I don't have to get it certified or anything like that so things should be ok.

 

Is there any brand of poe switches that are recommended? I broke the setup into two zones so half the cameras will run to one poe switch which will then connect via shielded cat6 to another switch and then to the router/recorder. Like I said earlier the entire thing will be on its own subnet so nothing else will be eating up bandwidth and it won't be eating up bandwidth either.

 

So I was wondering:

1. what poe switch should I look at?

2. any camera brands you guys recommend? I used CNB in the past but then found a brand that was way better in low light conditions for the same price.... Do you guys have anything you like?

3. same as question 2 but with some IP megapixel cams?

4. what brand of baluns work best?

5. what other brands of DVR's are recommended and should I split up the recordings into two 16 channel DVR's?

 

 

By the way, are Avigilon systems expensive?

Thanks again

Edited January 3, 2013 by Guest