Switching to IP - Camera Selection for challenging Lighting

[danweber 0]

To the experts in the security field...

 

I had a recent break-in attempt at my residence and my current security system captured some halfway useful pictures for the local law enforcement agency but I now decided to upgrade to something higher resolution and IP based. I'll be doing it in two phases with the front of the house being first.

 

These are the three cameras in the front today, they are facing north, so no direct sun hitting them but the backlight on the front door camera is quite strong and the other two cameras have large shady areas during the winter time. At night the front porch lights stay on all night so no IR needed there. There is a street light on the left property corner and garage lights that stay on all night but the right side has no lights.

 

 

At first I thought to replace the two front yard cameras with one 4MP or 5MP camera and a 2.5mm lens but due to tall landscaping in the FOV I think I need to keep them as two separate ones and therefore I think 2MP might be fine and certainly a huge improvement over what I have now. The two front yard cameras now have a 4mm lens and I'd like to go a little wider to get better coverage on the right side, I am thinking 3mm. The front door camera is 4mm as well and a standard 3.6mm lens should work there.

 

So far my shortlist on cameras is Dahua and ACTi. Obviously Dahua is the budget friendly choice and ACTi is the alternative based on the excellent reviews on buellwinkle's blog.

 

For Dahua I was thinking the IPC-HDB3200C with 3.6mm lens for the front door and two IPC-HDBW3202 for the front yard. The bullet is just physically too big for my liking and I wasn't able to find any seller for the newer short version (IPC-HFW3200S) that might work as well. If I select Dahua I am probably also getting one of their NVRs and based on reports in forums like this, and buellwinkle's blog, it seems the NVRs don't handle the 3MP cameras, so no reason to get a 3MP cam then.

 

For ACTi The shortlist of cameras are the 2MP KCM-5511 (the KCM-5611 and KCM-5211E both don't have a wide enough lens unfortunately), or the 4MP KCM-7311 or KCM-7111. These cameras are at substantial higher price than the Dahuas but maybe the premium is worth it?

 

Within a given brand I can probably experiment with different models by finding a seller that would allow return&exchange for different models but I haven't found a dealer that carries both brands so I could compare between brands. For a while I also considered Brickcom and Geovision but tossed them out of the shortlist along the way.

 

Recommendation, feedback, suggestions are very welcome at this stage...

 

Thanks

Dan

[ssuro11 0]

I can help with some of the questions on the Dahua cameras you have talked about. The 1080p camera you mentioned with no IR's works great in day but needs lots of light at night. I have noticed at night the 1080p dahua with no IR's has a little trouble with motion activation as well. I would either wait for the smaller and cheaper 1080p bullet with IR's or get the new auto focus 1080p dome with IR's. I have not had a chance to check out the new domes but I am told the IR halo was fixed in the new one. I would reccomend the Dahua vertical NVR with POE built in over the traditional "dvd looking" NVR. I have found no advantage to the bigger one and I had problems with the infrared remote sensor activating the NVR while using my Directv remote. The smaller vertical POE NVR does not have the IR remote port that I can tell.

[tomcctv 190]

Hi. If your thinking or 3-4-5mp cameras then skip the dahua.....if your looking at other brand cameras again skip the dahua

 

Dahua is a budget system which is limited.

 

Also built in POE can be a problem in its self ......dahua with POE is not sold in uk anymore .. POE goes NVR goes.

[danweber 0]

I would either wait for the smaller and cheaper 1080p bullet with IR's or get the new auto focus 1080p dome with IR's.

 

Thanks for the feedback on the non-IR dome. Do you happen to know when the new, smaller, bullet should be available?

[danweber 0]

Hi. If your thinking or 3-4-5mp cameras then skip the dahua.....if your looking at other brand cameras again skip the dahua

 

What would your recommendation be? Axis seems to be mentioned a lot but it's a bit more than I wanted to spend and I thought ACTi would fit between the Dahua and the Axis. Maybe there are other options I should be looking at? I used Vivotek bullets in another location but I am not thrilled with them. I also used Mobotix in the past which worked fine during the day but the low light performance is not good (I didn't use the dual sensor model) and they are a bit out of my desired price range too.

[ssuro11 0]

Also built in POE can be a problem in its self ......dahua with POE is not sold in uk anymore .. POE goes NVR goes.

Wrong.....IF the POE goes, you would just have to purchase a POE switch or POE adapter and put the cameras on the same "network" and add them. I have done this already at one location I have installed cameras. The IR's were not turning on at night and I removed one camera and plugged it into the router using a POE adapter. Works great now, no problems.

[tomcctv 190]

Wrong.....IF the POE goes

 

 

am i ...... take unit apart and SEE how many power units there are 1 which runs nvr and built in switch.

 

 

sold lots

 

I have done this already at one location

 

 

see so i am right un reliable so why pay for it. external POE is alway best.

[ssuro11 0]

The POE NVR's that I have installed have two power cords that plug in. One for the camera and one for the NVR. I removed one camera b/c it was not getting enough power to run all 4 cameras. I am not sure why on this one system but the other two work fine. I think the Cat5 cables could have a short in them as well and I will be replacing those next. To say the NVR is dead if the POE goes is wrong though.

[ssuro11 0]

[buellwinkle 0]

Having 4 & 5MP cameras sounds good, why not, more MP the better, but I've yet to see any that work well in low light. Keep in mind that many 5MP cameras can only do a limited number frames per second. I have the Dahua HFW3300C, 3MP in the front of my home now and it does well there during the day or night.

 

The Dahua IR domes do not do well, they have soft edges and IR light bleed that varies from OK to really bad depending on the angle of the lens. If you go with those, get the model without IR and run seperate IR illuminators. The new 2MP model claims to be better, don't know, we'll have to see. Don't get the 1080P mini-dome unless you are in a very bright urban setting.

 

The HFW3200S should be out, K&D is advertising it and I'm hoping to order one tonight to test out if they have any.

 

ACTi has some awesome cameras coming out any day now, the E44 bullet will use the same low light sensor in the KCM-5611 but in smaller bullet form factor and wider angle lens, probably the same 3.3-12mm in the other bullets and I'm sure a lot less expensive since it won't have the 18x zoom lens. They will also have a matching dome shortly after with the same specs. The advantage to ACTi is good service and support (compared to near zero for Dahua) and their free NVR 3.0 software is the best NVR software I've ever used and has a free IOS app. At least from my test of the KCM-5611, it has really good WDR where the Dahua 1080P bullet does not.

 

Axis has some nice domes, but the P33 with their "Lightfinder" only goes to 1MP at the moment. They will have a model with IR illuminators soon but it's been delayed. Sure, you can get 3 and 5 MP P33's but not sure how well they will perform at night and you'll need to add your own IR lighting.

[danweber 0]

Thank you for the detailed feedback Buellwinkle. I'll wait a couple weeks and see if ACTi will release their new cameras and maybe by that time you got the new HFW3200S from Dahua and can provide feedback about that one.

 

Do you happen to know a reputable ACTi dealer in the US?

[buellwinkle 0]

I buy from a distributor, but B&H Photo Video where I buy photography equipment seems to have good prices.

[voip-ninja 0]

I talked to Axis and the P33 with integrated IR are now available with some US distributors and from what they are saying any distributor can now get them. They also have a "closet" demo video of the integrated IR working in a small space and the performance for that kind of application (camera in your closet or doorway) looks to be quite good.

 

For the OP, I will try to post a night video and stills from my P33s for you... they work VERY well in low light situation, but I do get better performance with one of them (that gets almost zero external light) when I use an auxiliary IR.

[danweber 0]

I talked to Axis and the P33 with integrated IR are now available with some US distributors and from what they are saying any distributor can now get them.

 

Do you have the model number? I understand that Axis is one of the best options but from the prices I checked it is likely over what I want to spend for a residential install. Around $700 was what I had in mind spending for each cam, max. Clearly this is one area where you get what you pay for but I can't go too crazy (or I find myself in trouble with someone else.....)

[voip-ninja 0]

I talked to Axis and the P33 with integrated IR are now available with some US distributors and from what they are saying any distributor can now get them.

 

Do you have the model number? I understand that Axis is one of the best options but from the prices I checked it is likely over what I want to spend for a residential install. Around $700 was what I had in mind spending for each cam, max. Clearly this is one area where you get what you pay for but I can't go too crazy (or I find myself in trouble with someone else.....)

 

You can get P3364-VE for about that price, especially from Amazon ($649 currently from a reseller there). The light sensitivity on these cameras is very good. I can post some examples later.

 

I don't think that integrated IR is going to cover a huge area as you intend to do, it's really designed to work like a spotlight. You can get some pretty powerful external wide-beam external IRs that will throw IR up to 150' at a 60 degree angle.

 

If you were looking at the Axis with integrated IR they are the P3364-LVE, right now they are about $950 and up from resellers. Would love to see a review on one. Here's the Youtube video demo from Axis on the IR performance;

 

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[shockwave199 0]

For exterior, like any other camera- you should avoid IR in the camera. It will likely draw spiders and webs and all the hassle associated with that. I wouldn't let poor low light MP performance make me forget that fact. Use an external IR fixture or provide additional exterior light. But if you're going for a superior picture, don't let IR in the camera ruin it for you. That's just counter productive, imo.

[danweber 0]

You can get P3364-VE for about that price, especially from Amazon ($649 currently from a reseller there). The light sensitivity on these cameras is very good. I can post some examples later.

 

This seems to be a 1MP camera. I was going for at least full HD (2MP) because I am going to cover such a wide area.

 

I get your point on the built-in IR. I see the spider web issue on the ones I have now and it makes sense to use a separate IR illuminator. In that case I assume it is still desirable to have a true D/N camera with removable IR cut filter, correct?

[voip-ninja 0]

You can get P3364-VE for about that price, especially from Amazon ($649 currently from a reseller there). The light sensitivity on these cameras is very good. I can post some examples later.

 

This seems to be a 1MP camera. I was going for at least full HD (2MP) because I am going to cover such a wide area.

 

I get your point on the built-in IR. I see the spider web issue on the ones I have now and it makes sense to use a separate IR illuminator. In that case I assume it is still desirable to have a true D/N camera with removable IR cut filter, correct?

 

Yes, separate IR is definitely superior to integrated IR... however, I do have integrated IR on a couple of doorway cameras and it works well, I haven't had too many insect issues with those. Those are Samsung cameras.

 

As to what's on the market that is 2MP and has good low light sensitivity, I will have to defer to others, I only have experience with Vivotek 1600X1200 cameras for 2MP and the low light performance was terrible.

[shockwave199 0]

I have analog cams with IR and some are ignored, some get webs. I deal with it. But upgrading to MP cams, I would be sure the cameras are free of that problem. And if the cameras are starved for light, I'd provide it another way.