Are there any budget IP cameras feasible for my requirements

[JF1980 0]

Hi,

 

I'm new to the forum and like many of the non installers my interest in CCTV has been prompted by a break in I'll start by giving a little background so my requirements are a little clearer. My house is on a relatively busy road and 400m from the local police station (you can see it from the top of my drive way), 500m from a busy town centre. However, in the evenings the footfall/traffic falls off dramatically. Moreover, to the rear of my house there is a new building still being constructed and due to local geographic elevations I effectively only have the neighbours either side who are of any use when it comes to security (pair of eyes to spot a burglar).

 

Recently my alarm called me with an intruder alert and I was home within 15 mins. I discovered someone had forced open the rear door but it appears they had been scared off by the alarm (there were a few items in the living area that were untouched so i'm confident they scarpered pretty quickly on hearing the alarm). While its reassuring the alarm did its job (coupled with the proximity of the local police station), its troubling the presence of bell boxes didn't deter them from trying. This has obviously led to alot of inconvenience (repairing door, visits by police, etc), so I'd like to minimise the chance of this happening in the future and heighten the chance of catching the culprits both for my benefit and that of their future targets.

 

Having spent a few days researching options to this end, I feel my best bet is to install a CCTV system that will notify me via email (we have push email on our phones) or other mechanism of a movement event on my land. Given the proximity of the police station, this gives me a good chance of calling the police and having them catch/disturb the culprit before they can do much damage. By the time my alarm goes off some damage has already been done and it takes two sensors to be triggered before the police are called which means they've had quite a bit of time to examine my belongings.

 

I was looking at DVR + 3 or 4 (covering 3 ingress points to my property, plus my car on the drive) cameras but then I came accross this:

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ZMODO-4-CH-Network-Video-Recorder-Wireless-IP-Security-Camera-NVR-System-NO-HD-/330790437606?pt=UK_Gadgets&hash=item4d04a582e6

 

which got me thinking if perhaps I'd be better considering an IP based solution. However, I'm unsure of the quality/reliability of that system. Moreover, I don't require the wireless capability (both power and network cables are available close to camera mounting points), so I'm wondering if there are wired alternatives.

 

Ultimately my requirements in order of importance are:

 

1) Good live image

2) Adequate recorded image so I can provide description to police when I call them

3) Email or other auto alert on trigger of motion detection

4) Motion detection, or I/O based trigger (so I can use an external PIR) which is reliable enough not to send me alerts constantly. Otherwise my family will become conditioned to ignoring them.

5) I'll be installing PIR triggered floodlighting front and back, plus theres a street lamp right outside my house. Therefore, I would hope low light performance wouldn't be a major issue.

6) Edge based recording would be OK to start with, provided the Cameras will ultimately work with an NVR should I decide to install one.

 

I'm sure some of you will be rolling your eyes thinking not another one, just as I do when I'm asked the same question over and over in my own area of expertise None the less your input/advice/pointers are greatly appreciated. Even if its just a list of cameras I should look at.

 

Thank you for taking the time to read my long post and any advice you can provide.

Edited January 17, 2013 by Guest

[yakky 0]

What is your budget?

 

You also need to change your method of thinking, to do what you want, you are going to need a DVR with alarm inputs. Most of the budget ones don't have that feature.

[JF1980 0]

What is your budget?

 

You also need to change your method of thinking, to do what you want, you are going to need a DVR with alarm inputs. Most of the budget ones don't have that feature.

 

£300-£400, as with everything the lower the better, but I don't want to throw my money away on a white elephant either. The reason I thought I may not need an NVR if I go the IP camera route is that after seeing the Zmodo I searched for IP cameras and found the likes of Y-Cam which appear to do what I need. However, they have options I dont really need (wifi for example) so I was hoping there may be generic cams closer to my requirements.

 

I have extensive experience in Tier 1 comms and embedded design, so I don't need detailed instructions setting up network side/etc (plus I have experience of working with chinese manufacturers and their eccentric manuals/menus/etc), which appears to be a major gripe wrt generic/chinese offerings. I'm also aware of the tendency of suppliers to over promise, but only deliver on some of those promises. If I could get some pointers on cameras that can do the key things I need reliably, I can then research the shortcomings from other posts/etc.

[Kawboy12R 0]

I wouldn't get a cheap NVR and then expect it to work properly with cameras other than those supplied. NVR and camera matching is very important if you want motion detection and probably other features to work. The cams on that Zmodo are pretty low end and getting any other brand to work properly with that NVR will be a crapshoot at best. If you're handy with computers and networking then you might want to consider using a computer with NVR software to handle the cameras.

 

I did a lot of reading up on IP cameras and, combined with what I've learned from using a bunch of different analog cams at home and at work, I've decided that the best flexibility for mixing and matching different camera brands seems to be with a computer as NVR. Staying with one camera brand is probably best (especially if you go the standalone NVR route) but I like to fiddle and mix and match. I'm phasing out my analog system and started with a pair of Axis P3364-VE cameras. Those weren't cheap but I saw a good deal on them so I jumped on it.

 

I'm planning on adding some Dahuas when their new models become available. They're coming out with 2MP mini-bullets in the same form factor as these 1.3MP mini-bullets that'll hopefully clear up the white balance issues that the 1.3s have, as well as some interesting (to me) 2MP day/night domes without IR. I've got bug and fog issues at night and it's sometimes impossible to set motion detection to a useful level without having cams record all night. Depends on the cam and the software/DVR/NVR, but mounting external IR illuminators with IR-free cams that can still see IR eliminates the problem. The 1.3MP and 2MP minibullets should be in your price range if you order from EBay or China. The new 2MP minibullets should be close to the same price as the current 1.3s and they're $135ish USD from China or $170ish on EBay. Throw in a $70ish PoE switch, an old but not ancient desktop computer with a honkin big HD, and some software ($0 for the Linux ZoneMinder, $50 for BlueIris, and up) and you're pretty much set.

[JF1980 0]

Thank you for the detailed response.

 

The Zmodo kit I came across while searching for standard DVR kits, and it got me thinking perhaps the IP Cam route is now within (or close to my budget). You're probably right, in that if I did opt for the Zmodo kit it would probably be very restrictive going forward.

 

I've got some experience of consumer level motion detection from my parents (admittedly now very old) setup. Some of the issues you've mentioned (spiders making home on the camera) are familiar. With that in mind I'm questioning wether I need a consumer DVR/NVR for my requirements.

 

My thought process was to spend my budget on decent IP cameras, with the logic on the camera. I could then hopefully use edge based storage and later maybe free up one of the office NAS's, so it could be moved home for storage (or get something like a HP Micro Server, which could also replace my Nettop which currently runs my multiroom home audio system). Hopefully, that would be robust enough to do the basic task of storing recordings. At some point perhaps I could move to a PC/NVR solution.

 

Obviously the embedded motion detection on the Cams will have the same issues as that on a consumer DVR/NVR. However, I thought if I chose Cams with inputs for external triggers, I could use external PIRs should the motion detection not be reliable.

 

I've been reading about the upcoming Dahuas Cams on the forum. I hadnt realised they would fall in my budget Do you know if they have inputs for external alarm triggers?

 

Normally I research, research some more, procrastinate a bit, research some more, then finally make my decision. The issue is my GF really wants me to get this sorted ASAP, as she's constantly worrying about home whenever she's away (to be honest I do a swell a little).

[Kawboy12R 0]

I know the mini bullets don't do external triggers. Haven't really looked into the other ones yet. Deer would trigger mine a hundred times more often than people. At home at least. Not as many deer at work. My Axis cams do, but you'd probably be lucky to find one for $700.

[JF1980 0]

I know the mini bullets don't do external triggers. Haven't really looked into the other ones yet. Deer would trigger mine a hundred times more often than people. At home at least. Not as many deer at work. My Axis cams do, but you'd probably be lucky to find one for $700.

 

From my limited experience thats the issue with motion detection at the consumer level. Either not sensitive enough or prone to false triggers which condition all but the security obsessed to start ignoring it

 

It doesnt usually take much persuading for me to blow my budget when it comes to tech. But the problem is at $700 x 4, my girlfriend would probably point out it would be cheaper to accept a couple of break ins and get new stuff from the insurance

[tomcctv 190]

i. your problem is y-cam. ip camera it is but low res. if that is your budget then i would stay analog over the y-cam.

[buellwinkle 0]

PIR vs. video motion detection has plusses and minuses. With PIR, it will give you a lot less false positives, but is limited by range and in hot weather the sensitivity goes down so you may miss an event. Of course, with video motion detect, it can detect shadows as motion, so more false negatives. Also, with video motion detection, you can typically specify where in the video to detect, not so easy to do with PIR motion detectors.

 

Some cameras are better at video motion detect than others, for example, the low end Dahua's like the HFW2100 record a lot more false negatives than the higher end Dahuas like the HFW3200C.

[JF1980 0]

PIR vs. video motion detection has plusses and minuses. With PIR, it will give you a lot less false positives, but is limited by range and in hot weather the sensitivity goes down so you may miss an event. Of course, with video motion detect, it can detect shadows as motion, so more false negatives. Also, with video motion detection, you can typically specify where in the video to detect, not so easy to do with PIR motion detectors.

 

Some cameras are better at video motion detect than others, for example, the low end Dahua's like the HFW2100 record a lot more false negatives than the higher end Dahuas like the HFW3200C.

 

Ideally (like everyone) I want minimal false events and no missed events. However, if the choice is between lots of false events or missing a few events I'd lean towards the latter.

 

That is after carefull consideration of my key goal. That being to capture anyone attempting to break in and my family not being de-sensitised to alerts from the system by lots of false alerts.

 

I figure, PIR triggered detection may miss some events to the edges of the zone, or where someone isn't doing much movement. But in the critical area (around the ingress points to my actual house) I should be able to set it to reliably pick those up, especially with the kind of movement inherent in forcing entry?

 

Of course, the embedded motion detection may work well enough, but I would just like an alternative should it not.

[JF1980 0]

i. your problem is y-cam. ip camera it is but low res. if that is your budget then i would stay analog over the y-cam.

 

I guess I need to either up my budget or give up on IP based system.

 

Checked Costco UK having seen the thread about their Q-See kit, given their excellent service and returns policy figured it may be worth a try. Unfortunately they only offer swann analogue kits in the uk

 

Can anybody recommend an analogue setup I can research within my budget? Obviously with an analogue system I'd need a DVR aswell.

[MaxIcon 0]

I've abandoned all my analog gear, so I'm a bit prejudiced, but I'd definitely recommend going IP, and starting with fewer cams. The improvements over consumer analog gear are dramatic, and a year or two from now, you'll be much happier with a few Dahua 1.3MP cams than with twice as many analog cams.

 

I have a few Y-cams from back when they were a good value, and they work fine for me, but I wouldn't even consider them now. The Dahua 1.3MP outdoor bullet is the value leader in the lower-middle home security market right now, IMO. You can start with an inexpensive PC running Blue Iris, or go with the Dahua NVR.

[yakky 0]

Don't discount Dahua video motion detection. I've been blown away by how well it works, it literally gets black cats at night but no lighting change induced falses during the day (I was plagued with those in ZoneMinder). Only thing I get now is wind triggers on bushes if it gets really windy.

[tomcctv 190]

i. your problem is y-cam. ip camera it is but low res. if that is your budget then i would stay analog over the y-cam.

 

I guess I need to either up my budget or give up on IP based system.

 

Checked Costco UK having seen the thread about their Q-See kit, given their excellent service and returns policy figured it may be worth a try. Unfortunately they only offer swann analogue kits in the uk

 

Can anybody recommend an analogue setup I can research within my budget? Obviously with an analogue system I'd need a DVR aswell.

 

 

 

hi swann is one to stay away from .....costco cant sell dahua in the uk. as they have there own distribution.

 

what is your budget.

[JF1980 0]

Ideally I'd like to spend upto £400, preferably £300. For that I need at least 3 cameras (preferably 4) as that will cover all the ingress points to my property. Initially I could do edge based storage on SD, or store on a NAS.

 

From the prices kawboy indicated 3 of the new 2MP bullets from Dahua could be an option. I've mailed KD to confirm pricing and lead time. The only issues is my GF is eager for me to get this done for her piece of mind, but I'm reluctant to get the 1.3MP bullets if the new ones will come in at similar price point :/

 

Thankyou again for all the advice.

[JF1980 0]

How long do KD usually take to respond?

 

Also the pricing on the IPC-HDB3200C ($71-$125) seems very competitive here:

 

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/732876781/2mp_dahua_cctv_ip_camera_outdoor.html

 

Albeit I'd need to arrange my own night time illumination.

[buellwinkle 0]

Really, that's funny because their Alibaba price are much lower, like $20, it's all a trick to make you contact them and I hope you did. If you find someone cheaper that is legit, let me know, I hate it when I have to pay more than others

 

I can tell you of a place that is lower priced, but you probably won't like their terms, like 48 unit minimum per camera model (even at the lens, for example say you want 2.8mm and 3.6mm, then you have to buy 48 of each).

[JF1980 0]

Really, that's funny because their Alibaba price are much lower, like $20, it's all a trick to make you contact them and I hope you did. If you find someone cheaper that is legit, let me know, I hate it when I have to pay more than others

 

I can tell you of a place that is lower priced, but you probably won't like their terms, like 48 unit minimum per camera model (even at the lens, for example say you want 2.8mm and 3.6mm, then you have to buy 48 of each).

 

Unfortunately 48 units might be a little too much, I have a big house but its not that big

 

I haven't contacted them yet as I was still unsure if it was a suitable camera. Or wether I should wait for a response from KD about the new Dahua Bullet.

[JF1980 0]

Well I've mailed them and KD security through AB, lets see what they come back with. Also asked about the NVR3204 (with and without POE).

 

With respect to the cameras, I will be installing PIR controlled floodlights. Would these be adequate given the cameras have no on board IR LEDs, or should I also install IR lighting?

[buellwinkle 0]

With respect to the cameras, I will be installing PIR controlled floodlights. Would these be adequate given the cameras have no on board IR LEDs, or should I also install IR lighting?

 

Adequate in a very loose sense. Here's what happens in real life, the camera triggers on video motion detect, so it will come on for sure when the flood lights come on, but two bad things happen, first, all the pre-event frames that are crucial will be very dark, obviously, the light wasn't on then. Second, the first several frames while the subject is being lit up will be washed out because it takes the camera time to adjust the exposure settings. By the time the camera adjusts say a second later, the subject may have moved past the range of the camera or has already turned away or covered his face because the lights are blinding him too and not just the camera.

 

This doesn't happen with IR illuminators because they are on all the time at night and the camera is already set to the proper exposure.

 

It's possible if your camera allows this, pretty sure Dahua does not, you can set profiles seperate for day and night. At night, you can set a profile that sets a fixed apeture and fixed gain that works with the lights on. This way the camera is not trying to auto adjust instantly. You still have the issue of pre-event frame, but at least your post event frames will be good.

[JF1980 0]

Hmmmm thanks that has given me something else to think about. Ultimately the floodlights will be going in irrespective of the camera I choose, so I have two options:

 

1) install IR illumination (on camera or indipendant) aswell. From what you've said this would mean I get some images prior to my floodlights triggering, but given there will still be a significant change in luminance when my floodlights change, I will still have a gap in the middle when the floodlights trigger. That's assuming the camera starts capturing prior to the floodlights triggering (IE the PIR on the floodlights doesn't see movement before the cameras software).

 

2) Don't use IR illumination and live with the issues you've highlighted.

 

I'm leaning towards option 2 for now for the following reasons:

 

1) At the front there is street lighting (I live on a busy road and there's a lamppost right outside my house) so the camera would still be able to capture prior to the floodlight triggering. This is where I'd really want recordings for retrospective use, as someone may do something to my car and scarper.

 

2) At the rear and sides my objective is more to deter or be able to see an event and alert the police (the local police station is within sight of my home). I would hope provided I can spot an intruder and alert the police they would attend fast enough to prevent entry and damage to my door/window. Also I'd be quite happy if the floodlights deterred them in the first place. The key for me would be to give enough detail of clothing, etc that the police could apprehend them if they are near my property. A decent image of their face would be great, but its not essential given the proximity of the police station.

 

If I install the cameras and the solution isn't workable without IR illumination I could always add it. From what I've read many feel discrete IR illumination is better anyway.

 

Thanks again for the illuminating (pun intended ) information.

[Kawboy12R 0]

Another problem with inadequate illumination before motion lights kick in is a noisy grainy image. Video noise often causes constant motion recording rendering it useless at night.

[MaxIcon 0]

The Dahuas, in particular, are problematic with external lighting. Both my 1.3MP and my 3MP bullets are very slow in responding to big light changes, often taking 5-10 seconds to get the exposure back under control.

 

It's worse when the lights go out, as the IR filter is in. The IR LEDS go on immediately, but it takes 3-5 seconds for it to decide to switch the filter out, then another 4-6 seconds for it to adjust the exposure. The transitional images are badly washed out for those times.

 

When lights go on, it's not so bad, and the transitional images are much clearer, but still not optimal.

 

In contrast, my Vivotek 1MPs have the exposure tweaked in less than a second, going either way, and lose very little of the video.

[JF1980 0]

Well I woke up this morning to find quotes which fell within my budget (3 x 3200c cameras plus NVR3204 or $40 more for the POE version).

 

Then I read your responses and you've given me some more to think about

 

KD have suggested the KDW-HW47RC80 as a response to my questions about the Dahua 2MP bullet, which suggests it isn't available yet. They haven't provided a price though. Do you have any advice about this camera over the 3200C?

 

Also now I'm somewhat back to square one. Do I live with the issues you've highlighted? The most worrying being false motion detection if I go no IR and floodlights only. Given the floodlights are a must, what would you advise?

[JF1980 0]

Well having had a look at the KDW-HW47RC80 on AB, it isn't win my budget. I guess KD thought it was in addition to the 3200C, not as an alternative. Hence suggested something more expensive.

 

Also looking again at the spec sheet of the 3200C it doesn't mention I/O ports, so I couldn't use PIR based detection to get over false motion detection at night if I don't add IR illumination (as Kawboy warned).