Secvurity System upgrade

[Marrkk 0]

I'm the Security Manager at a Facility that does (among other things) DoD research and development. After many years, we are upgrading our camera and access control system. I can't get an installer involved, since we are a Top Secret facility, so I am having to learn on-the fly.

 

Since we are locked in to a GE (Casi-Rusco) SecurePerfect access card system, I replaced the Panasonic VCR with a GE (Kalatel) DVMre Pro, which can be integrated (alarms, viewing off-site, etc,) with SecurePerfect. I am planning to replace the 3 existing (OLD) Pelco domes with the new GE Legends for the same reason (easier integration). That leaves 12 other camera positions to upgrade/ add. I'm having trouble getting any real independent test data on cameras/lenses. For the indoor cameras, i'm planning on the Pixim DPS based Pelco CCC5100H-6 because I have 2 locations with contrast problems (outside light thru glass doors). I can get them for a very good price - anyone with experience with these or similar (GE Ultraview, JVC TKC-WD310, Baxall Hyper-D, etc.) DPS cameras? Any downside to using them as interior cameras in non- high contrast areas? (we leave the interior lights on in camera areas).

 

For exterior cameras (the DPS chip is not good in low-light), I was going to use the Pelco CCC1390H-6, but the first one I installed failed (stuck in an overexposed mode) on the second day. It also appears a bit cheap in the construction department. One camera on which I have seen a good test report is the Bosch LTC 045 Dinion (15 bit DSP processing, hi res, wide dynamic range, good low-light performance - but not day/night switching). These cameras will be looking over parking areas that are illuminated at night by sodium vapor lamps. I don't think i need a color/mono day/night camera. Any comments/ suggestions?

 

For lenses, I've seen a test report that listed a Cosmicar/Pentax fixed focal length auto-iris as best (over 570 lines resolution -but it was a 1/2 lens). Coming in second were 1/3 Bosch and Panasonic lenses (about 480 lines). I plan on using the Pentax fixed focal length in all locations where I don't need something in between their available 2.8, 4.0 and 8.0 lens (they are all F1.2). Any thoughts on these lenses or others? Also, should I get auto-iris lenses for my indoor cameras?

 

Thanks for any help you experts out there can give me!

[SteveSurf 0]

For the indoor cameras, i'm planning on the Pixim DPS based Pelco CCC5100H-6 because I have 2 locations with contrast problems (outside light thru glass doors).

 

For exterior cameras (the DPS chip is not good in low-light), I was going to use the Pelco CCC1390H-6, but the first one I installed failed ...

These cameras will be looking over parking areas that are illuminated at night by sodium vapor lamps. I don't think i need a color/mono day/night camera.

 

For lenses, I've seen a test report that listed a Cosmicar/Pentax fixed focal length auto-iris as best (over 570 lines resolution -but it was a 1/2 lens). Coming in second were 1/3 Bosch and Panasonic lenses (about 480 lines).

 

Let's take the three items in order:

 

1. Ironically, you're considering using a Pixum-based camera that uses pre-set patterns for high contrast lighting situations. A great camera here is the Panasonic Model WV-CP484 (you should run a test side by side before you buy), with 128x brightness range resolving capability (SDIII) that is specifically made for this type of situation.

 

2. The key decision points here are the resolving of colors in the 2200 degree K range (I estimate) of your Sodium Vapor lights. Some cameras have the capability to cover a secondary lower Color Temp range. Here the Model WV-CP484 also has (and a few other mfrs also) an ATW2 range (automatic white balance secondary range). FYI this is also a very sensitive Day/Night camera, with Auto Backfocus, eliminating focus shift issues.

 

3. Here I am shocked that Fujinon or CBC was not #1. Perhaps this may say something about the test! In any case, start with Fujinon, then CBC, then Panasonic, then Tamron, but consider only the Aspherical, fast, large maximum aperture lenses. Choose a prime (fixed focal length) if possible, like a 9mm f/0.75. You'll be shocked how great your results will be by adding a more sensitive lens.

 

Good luck with the purchase.

[rory 0]

What Steve said, on the mark.

 

I wasnt happy with the Ultraview which uses the Pixum technology, would not buy them again, they were horrible in anything but a ton of light. Especially when the Pano is a day night WD camera and approx the same price as the Ultraview. Also, Pelco cameras arent that great, typically.

 

Pano, GE, Bosch, Sanyo, cant go wrong with them, but for WD id stick with the Pano. And Computar or Fujinon for lenses, Extreme CCTV for Infrared apps.

[Marrkk 0]

Thanks to both of you for the great info, I have two questions about your replies and then an additional question,

 

1. I'm getting better than catalog prices (but not quite best installer prices) at a local security wholesaler, so my checking of on-line prices indicate i will probably get the Panos at about the price I'm paying for the (soon to be returned) Pelco CCC1390s. But I was getting a great (!!!?) price on the CCC5100 (they are back-ordered from Pelco untill 11/10 so I don't have them yet). I'm sure th Panos will be more than the CCC5100s. What camera recommendations can you give for my less demanding indoor locations (very even indoor lighting 24/7). that could sve me money?

 

2. I've gone on the Fujinon site and only see an F0.95 aspherical lens in a Varifocal lens (2.9mm-9mm). Their auto-iris fixed focal lens are listed at F1.2 to F1.4. Do you have part numbers for F0.95 or less fixed focal length lenses?

 

3. What about cable - the original installer used non-copper CATV coax, so I'll have to re-pull the proper cable. Some are incouraging me to use CAT-5 and a BNC adapter/converter at each end (it woud be easier to run). My gut says stick with RG-59 and RG-6. I have two runs of about 750', the others are less than 500'. Should I use RG-6 for the long runs? Any problems with brands of cable as long as it is 95% min. copper braid/ core CCTV cable?

 

Thanks again for any and all input!

[SteveSurf 0]

Hey Marrkk

 

1. My recommendation of WV-CP484 still stands - well worth it.

 

2. Like you had stated, the very capable Fujinon Varifocal YV2.7x29LR4A-SA2

 

CBC Varifocal

TG3Z3510FCS-IR f/1.0 3.5-10.5mm

Prime lenses:

TG2010FCS-HSP f/1.0

HG0608FCS-HSP 6mm 1/2" format (it's ok) f/0.8

Panasonic Prime Lens:

WV-LA908C3A 9mm f/0.75

 

3. Oh boy, a favorite topic of mine.

 

There are many that state they use CCTV cable, but fail to meet the specs:

Belden 9259 or equivalent: Must have pure copper center conductor, not copper clad steel. 15 ohms per 1000' max. DC resistance. 95% or greater pure copper overall braided shield. Use solid pin BNC Connection (two or three-piece crimp style BNC only; not stamped pins.

 

Use of UTP cable can degrade a signal as the cable distance increases; in your case, IMHO you are making the right choice with coax. You'll be at the limit at 750' with RG59U coax; any larger gage cable will be insurance, but must conform to the same specs as above, espec. the pure Copper center conductor one.

 

Again, good luck!

[rory 0]

Ive always like the Fujinon F:095 lens, though the ones you listed are even lower f stops .. very nice.

 

Like he said, again .. coax being the choice unless there is a reason you would benefit from using twisted pair, such as existing UTP between a couple buildings and cannot trench, but still loss of quality, unless you spend the $$ on some high grade amp gear like NVT, Nitek, etc. Wouldnt use Baluns unless you have no choice, they arent all that secure. The other gear comes in hubs and units that can be secured.

 

Rory

[Securitymaster 0]

Go with COAX, if money is not an issue, use WESTPENN cable.

[Marrkk 0]

Thanks again for all your input.

 

My investigation of lenses based on your recommendations has led me to a strange conclusion - available high quality aspherical low F-stop (F1.0 and below) fixed focus lens are more expensive than their veri-focal brethren - the only aspherical fixed I can find are Computar at about 1 1/2 to twice the going rate for the 3mm-8mm/10mm varis!

I've zeroed in on three varis based your inputs - the Fujinon YV2.7x2.9LA-SA (F0.95, 2.9-8mm Zoom), The Computar TG3Z3510FCS-IR (F1.0, 3.5-10.5mm Zoom), and the Tamron 13VG308ASIR-SQ (F1.0, 3-8mm Zoom). Only the Fujinon and Tamrom list on their spec sheets that they are aspherical. Only the Tamron and Computar mention that they are IR lenses, but the Fujinon says it has a "built-in filter of T360, supporting super sensitive cameras" (we will not be using IR illumination). The prices are very close, with the Fujinon being about 20% less that the Tamron, with the Computar in the middle.

 

Any comments on these choices? (I'm leaning toward the Fujinon).

 

Back to the cameras - I'm going to order one each of the Panasonic WV-CP484 and the Bosch LTC 0495 (I left a digit out of the number in my first post) and put them to the test. The Bosch has "Lens wizard" to "help focus the lens at maximum opening to maintain proper 24 hr focus" - don't know how this corresponds to the Panasonic Auto Back focus. For white balance, the Bosch has ATW, AWB hold, and Manual WB selectable vs. ATW1, ATW2 and AWC on the Panasonic. Bosch's selling point seems to be the 15 bit processing. The cameras are about the same price on-line (comparing best prices -no single source seems to carry both), but I don't know until tomorrow what my local supplier's prices will be.

 

I have a Sony Trinitron Monitor with A and B inputs, and can try some side-by-side tests using the same lens, both day/night and indoor/outdoor.

 

Any further comments on cameras?

 

Again, thanks for helping out this CCTV do-it-yourselfer.

[rory 0]

I use both, fujinon and Computar, and Fujinon is easier to focus.

 

Tamron is budget stuff, but still decent lenses.

 

Also check out the GE KTC-2000DN for a day night "Exview" Camera, lower lux level than both of those, but not Wide Dynamic. GE used to use the Fujinon lenses when they were Kalatel, the GE lenses as far as I can tell are the same thing, as they have the F:0.95 lens also.

 

For a low lux camera the GE from specs has the other 2 beat, but for lighting conditions like backlighting Pano would be the one to go with.

 

Im not a bosch fan so I wont even go there, and never was a Phillips fan when they were those either. The 15 Bit thing means very little, its just a sales pitch from bosch, though they have decent cameras, but nothing amazing.

 

If you are looking for the absolute best camera, it doesnt exist, though a couple to look at would be the Pano 1/2" camera, and yes it is not as well known, but the extremeCCTV 1/2' camera. Did you say you need a day night?

 

Extreme

http://www.extremecctv.com/products/index.cfm?img=92

 

I like the extreme for the all in one approach, plus they have the enhanced IR if you need it.

http://www.extremecctv.com/products/index.cfm?img=66

http://www.extremecctv.com/products/uploads/PDF2/EX27D-MX4_TS_050802.pdf

 

Pano

1/2" Pano

 

You also mentioned GE, just buy a GE CCTV Monitor if you can, they are very good, and they look professional. Ive been using them for years, they last well.

 

 

Rory

[cctv_down_under 0]

The 15 Bit thing means very little, its just a sales pitch from bosch, though they have decent cameras, but nothing amazing.

 

The 15 bit does mean quite a bit, most cameras are 10 bit and can not see as many light levels or colours as a 15 bit camera.

 

To give you an idea a 15 bit camera can see a full 10,000 light levels and close to 1,000 colour ranges

 

 

And a 10 bit camera can only see 512 light levels and only 100 colour ranges.

 

 

 

These images are only to demonstrate the concept, but you would be more than happy with any 15bit camera and the LTC 0495 has won the NSCA’s 2005 Innovations in Technology award in the Security/Fire/Life Safety category this year, however the SDIII is also aan awesome camera and I have used plenty of both, as for the GE range they are quite good but not even in the same catagory as the two mentioned above.

 

It would seem that Bosch and Panasonic copy each others features and this is leading towards some excellent competition allowing us to get some awesome products in the market place.

 

As for your lenses CBC (Computar) are awesome lenses, but if your going to use a Panasonic or Bosch camera that has a Day Night Filter I suggesst you choose an aspherical and IR Corrected lense.

 

I agree the Bosch branded lenses are excellent, however I do not think they make them as they are very similar to other brands I have purchased before and Cosmica are quite good as well as Fujinon.

[Marrkk 0]

Thanks for the info, cctvgeeknz.

 

I called both the Bosch and Panasonic reps and we are going to have a "shoot-out".

I'm also trying out the Pelco CCC5100 in a high contrast indoor location.

 

If you have tried both The Bosch and the Panasonic, what are there relative strengths and weakness (i.e., where would you choose one over the other, and vice-versa?)

 

Thanks again!

[Marrkk 0]

Thanks, Spytown

 

My local ADI guy also suggested Toshiba. I'll check tomorrow it is the same one you mentioned.

[spytown 0]

you may want to also get the Toshiba rep invloved for that camera i mentioned. what state are you in?

[spytown 0]

you will notice we can beat ADI'S pricing all day long! and I can give you much better support and am a member of this forum

[Marrkk 0]

I would welcome that. I'm in CA, Oakland area.

 

ADI gives me (our company) good prices, near installer (we can't use an installer because of our classified work). I've my ADI prices against some of yours in the last week and they are within a few dollars. Their location is three blocks from our facility, so it's very convenient, but they don't always have what I need in stock.

 

I have no problem using on-line sources when it makes sense.

 

Thanks for the interest and I'll continue to check your site.

[spytown 0]

ok. keep in mind for all the participants in this forum , they PM me, and whereever i can ..i work out even better pricing than what is posted on our website. We are in NY, and are also under most manufacturers GSA contract if you should need to purchase that way as well.

Howard

SpyTown

[rory 0]

Ive done IR with Extreme IR with simple lenses, nothing special, and worked great, The IR lenses are mostly hype also, once you using decent IR and decent cameras, wont matter as much the lens you use whether it is a regular auto iris, manual iris, or day night/IR lens.

 

GE cameras - ive used all 3, pano, bosch and GE, and i like the GE quality over the bosch (phillips) cameras any day, and the GE also beats any bosch and pano camera actually, for low light, anyday.

Edited November 8, 2005 by Guest

[cctv_down_under 0]

Bosch Pro's

 

15 Bit

Distribution Amp Built in

Auto Back Focus Mode

Bilinx

Wide Dynamic Range

3 Yr Warranty

Price

 

Con's

Only new to the CCTV game

No Auto Motor Back Focus

Bad Connectors

Not as sensitive as the Panasonic

 

 

Panasonic

 

Pro's

 

Low light performance is excellent

very wide dynamic range

great anti smear

good resolution

proven product

 

Con's

 

Less features than Bosch

hard to set up

More fussy with lenses

no distribution amp,built in or motion detection

frame intergration multiplied too much by default

harder to use

Pricing

Support

no ability to save settings

[rory 0]

Every brand has Wide Dynamic cameras now and 3 year warranty ..

 

I like the Extreme CCTV 5 year warranty

[cctv_down_under 0]

GE cameras - ive used all 3, pano, bosch and GE, and i like the GE quality over the bosch (phillips) cameras any day, and the GE also beats any bosch and pano camera actually, for low light, anyday.

 

Actually I have used all three, I would be interested to see which models you have tried from GE as the ones i used were not even CLOSE to the same ballpark as Pano and Bosch, as for IR lenses I am sorry but once again I have to disagree, IR corrected lenses are NEEDED if used with IR ligt as the camera can see this range and therefore will throw the field of view out if it adjusts iris settings, most lenses these days aare treated with IR protection aswell, i can not say that IR lenses are not worth it!

[rory 0]

IR optimized Lenses .. Hmmm, ive never used them and have great success. These lenses are new to the market, were not around when i started and not with any of that IR i have out there now.

 

Simply by a Camera that has the correct IR Spectral Response for the application. The Sanyo has worked well in the past, without IR lenses, has a great Spectral Response, and ofcourse Extreme CCTV Cameras are optimized for IR. I havent used GE cameras for IR apps yet, though the specs "claim" the same Spectral Response as the Sanyo, and they are lower lux without IR than the Sanyo .. costs a little more though.

 

GE - KTC-2000DN

GE - KTC-840CE

 

Exview chips, low low lux, using GE F:0.95 lens.

 

The other guys dont match the 2 above cameras for low light camera specs. If you need a wide dynamic, then that is different, there is not 1 single brand for everything. I wouldnt use GE for Wide Dynamic, if you check the cameras you posted, they are Wide Dynamic, the GE is not. I would use the GE for low light apps though as they are great for that.

 

Personally I dont even look at Bosch, its Ganz, GE, Pano, and Extreme.

 

Sanyo is good for IR or day night apps when you cant afford the other guys ..

Edited November 8, 2005 by Guest

[SteveSurf 0]

Panasonic

 

Pro's

Low light performance is excellent

very wide dynamic range

great anti smear

good resolution

proven product

 

Con's

Less features than Bosch

hard to set up

More fussy with lenses

no distribution amp,built in or motion detection

frame intergration multiplied too much by default

harder to use

Pricing

Support

no ability to save settings

 

A few things, regarding the Panasonic Model WV-CP484 SDIII Cam:

 

It actually does not have smear reduction.

The resolution is actually 540 TVL in color (compare with 480 on other)

Has a very large # of features (four B/W modes, two maskable BLC/SDIII, Electronic Sens Boost, Digital Motion Detect, I/O, Cable Compensation, One-touch Autobackfocus, Quick Reset. I actually agree with one Con, though - no ability to save settings.

[spytown 0]

Marrkk, I think you really need to do the shootouts with the cameras that you had in mind (including the Toshiba) to truly test it in your application.

The reps in your area i am sure will be willing to come down to you and demonstarte it or give you a unit for a week or so to test.

[rory 0]

Ive got 2 Toshiba Day Nights sitting in a box here, they were "okay" but nothing amazing, id use the Sanyo first.

[spytown 0]

Rory, we were talking about the Toshiba IK-65WDA, wide dynamic day/night as can be found here..

 

is that what you also were talking about? or another version?http://www.toshiba.com/taisisd/security/products/cameras/ik65wda.htm