Has IP gotten cheap enough to replace budget analog?

[hubjeep 0]

I installed a basic analog system out at my mothers house early 2012, with a 8-channel DVR, and a variety of cameras from various places (thanks for the help). At the time most all home-survelance talk seemed to be analog, and the CNB VBM-24V, was the great camera considering price, construction, performance.

 

On "black friday" I picked up a $60 4-channel DVR from a local store, and a few cheap cameras to monitor my driveways (one CNB VBM-24V). Not really too pleased with the picture quality (since I actually have a monitor here next to my desk on 24/7), but it gets the job done, allowing me to see when the someone pulls up, etc (basically same pic quality out at my mothers with better DVR).

 

Logging on here recently I see more talk about IP, including a Costco kit for $700 including a 1TB HD.

http://www.costco.com/Q-See-4-Channel-HD-Digital-NVR-with-1TB-Hard-Drive-and-4-HD-720p-IP-Cameras.product.100003211.html

 

One thread said they are coming out with an 8-channel, someone said the 4-channel ones are actually shipped with an 8-channel NVR now.

 

Are there any drawbacks to IP over analog? A decent analog camera like a CNB is $100-$150 each. The IP images are insane, not sure I want to put more money into my analog system here, and insted pick up a Costco kit, additional cameras are $300 for 2.

 

Thanks,

John

[Kawboy12R 0]

IP can be more complicated to set up but I'm in your camp with analog. I'm moving my home system away from analog at the moment. The biggest problem with IP cams seems to be picking something to run them if you want to run different brands with the same NVR. Things are fairly straightforward if you pick your cam manufacturer based on budget and then find a standalone NVR or software+computer that'll work with the cameras you've chosen. Computer software is much more flexible when trying to mix and match camera brands and maintaining motion-based recording. If the software doesn't support the in-cam motion detection, it can do it by itself with the CPU.

 

The Costco kits are an excellent deal at $700, especially if you can live with the 6mm lenses. You can swap them out but there seems to be some trouble getting lenses that work perfectly. Expect some fiddling. The few folks that got 8ch kits when they ordered 4ch were lucky. That didn't last long.

[vector18 1]

About a year or two ago, when I went on an estimate, I would take my laptop and show them an IP system and

an analog system. I would give them a price for analog and a price for IP. The other day, I went on an estimate, and I just gave them one price for cameras and told them they would be very pleased with the images. I will be using IP

megapixel cameras for that job and the price was pretty much the same as I used to price out analog jobs. From now

on, I want every customer telling their friends how pleased they are with their images from the cameras I chose to install for them. For the small extra you will spend, there should be no reason to use analog anymore.

[hubjeep 0]

Thanks for the info. Perhaps when an 8-channel becomes available it won't cost too much more than the 4-channel, prices will only come down.

 

At first I was impressed with my analog picture, but when I see IP 720P, examples they are sooo much better.

 

Do any other kits come close to that Costco IP kit for value? Again, this is not a critical install, just monitoring driveways.

 

Thanks,

John

[Kawboy12R 0]

Not that I know of, or at least not with the Costco exchange policy and QSee technical support. Dahua cameras and NVRs are readily available under different names on EBay and websites ranging from the US and Canada through to China. The best prices are direct from China of course but you still might be hard pressed to find 4 cams, an NVR with HD installed , and wiring for $700. It might make sense to buy one of the Costco kits for 4ch and then if you need 5 or more channels later then buy a higher-end Dahua NVR to replace the 4ch one and then add a PoE switch and few more cameras. Either that or get two kits and run two separate systems. Maybe swap out lenses or buy other Dahua cams if the 6mm lenses from Costco don't work in the roles you want them to do.

[shockwave199 0]

To me it's mostly about camera placement. I agree of course MP cameras give a better picture. But I'm not ditching my analog system yet just because of that. I'd sooner consider how I could better place my existing analog cameras for optimal results- something I think a lot of DIY'ers overlooked in the first place. Plunking an MP camera in the same spot may give a better picture, but it may or may not be more helpful for ID- especially when you're back to square one with fixed lenses on cheaper cameras. More pixels doesn't automatically mean 'I gotcha'. Frankly I haven't gotten over the pain of installing my analog system and it was two years ago already! I'm not ready to take it all down- I like what I see live and on backup even still. I know when I do make the switch I'll prefer a box NVR and I'd like to see them support better resolution/fps specs, have as many POE hookups as there are channels, and be more open to third party camera support. In an odd way, to me it seems the hardware NVR's are at the infancy stage of where analog dvr's were, before analog matured to 30fps throughout at highest res- D1.

 

And then there's the cameras. Cheap fixed lens cameras will not work for me. Nor will investing a bunch of money on an MP camera with IR built in to solve low light issues. I'm not gonna go backward in function just to say I have an MP camera. The ones I'd choose are out of my price range for sure. The q-see MP cameras that come in the costco package are as limiting as their analog cameras that come in their analog boxed packages, imo. Not interested, MP be damned. When the time is right and the gear has matured more and maybe even come down in price, yes. Personally, I'm still rockin analog. But it's getting might lonely out here! LOL!

Edited January 28, 2013 by Guest

[hubjeep 0]

Thanks for the posts.

 

In the limited exposure to CCTV I have had so far (6 cameras at one house, and three here), fixed lens would be fine (I keep any vari-focals I have zoomed out). I am covering doorways/driveways for the most part and want to be zoomed out all the way to cover the widest apron, so that's not a problem.

 

EDIT: I see some posts where a $14 lens is swapped in to make the camera look even better.

 

-John

[survtech 0]

One word: NO.

 

When ONVIF can get its collective head out of its a$$, I might consider changing that answer to "maybe".

[GrouchoBoucho 0]

Are there any drawbacks to IP over analog? A decent analog camera like a CNB is $100-$150 each. The IP images are insane, not sure I want to put more money into my analog system here, and insted pick up a Costco kit, additional cameras are $300 for 2.

 

dahua has a four-channel nvr with built-in four channel poe switch - used with dahua cameras, you just plug them in, and the system auto-configures. i've seen it selling in a package with four cameras (mixes of 1080p and 1.3mp), cables included, for under $1500.

[securitynow.us 0]

The prices have got way better in my opinion for both customers and integrators. I myself couldn't give a customer a better price on a system then that costco one, but I could get pretty darn close with a better quality. But when you switch from analog to IP you need to replace the cameras, and the wiring.

 

For a DIYer, possibly a HD-SDI solution would be the answer. You could go full HD-SDI DVR, or get a Dual HD-SDI DVR that supports both HD-SDI cameras, and analog. While the DVR itself may be a little more then some NVRs now, you get to reuse your existing coax/rg59 cabling. and with HD-SDI you get full HD 1080P pictures and megapixel camera options now.

 

But to be able to get all the benefit you'll need a new monitor/TV with HDMI input in order to get all the quality. IMHO hooking a VGA/BNC monitor up to a HD DVR or NVR with megapixel cameras, is just well..not worth it.

[MaxIcon 0]

After running analog systems for many years, at home and at work, I started adding some IP cams a few years back, and it didn't take too long to shut down all the analog gear and retire it.

 

I'm a computer nerd, so I had spare systems to run the software on and only needed the cameras and POE gear. Having a good understanding of basic networking and PCs was a major asset as well; lack of this would have made the transition even more frustrating.

 

The analog gear was a mix of mid range and low end, with some great cams and optics in key locations, and the IP cams are much better, with lots better access and control.

 

Downsides of IP are greater complexity, more to go wrong, more computer/networking knowledge needed, less plug-and-play capability, and poorer low light performance at the middle price range and below.

 

Upsides are much better flexibility in recording and viewing systems, much better resolution, and much better control over camera parameters and options, depending on the brands.

 

I see analog as a dying breed, except at the very cheapest segment of the market. I believe in 5 years analog will be essentially dead.

[shockwave199 0]

I see analog as a dying breed, except at the very cheapest segment of the market. I believe in 5 years analog will be essentially dead.

IP/MP may be gaining in popularity. It's hard to tell just by a forum. But your downside list still outweighs your upside list by a good deal, for the average DIY homeowner. Things on the IP side are gonna have to get a lot more user friendly and less proprietary. And the low light thing has to become a non issue and not remain a caveat. But, five years is a long time- maybe things will change for the better. I don't know of anyone who wouldn't want to see superb pictures and playback. Guess we'll 'see'.

[MaxIcon 0]

Most of the downside issues are software related, and software can go a long ways to make things more user friendly. This can be automated, either by someone setting defacto industry standards, or if ONVIF or something similar actually gets good enough to be useful.

 

Getting on the internet used to be a task that non-technical users struggled with, and now anyone can do it. I see the market for surveillance cams growing steadily, as quality rises and costs drop, so it'll take someone pulling an Apple and making an easy, friendly system that does what most people need in a plug-and-play fashion.

 

The output of inexpensive analog cams is so terrible compared to inexpensive IP cams, and with IR and WDR becoming pretty usable in the mid-range, the low-light image quality issue starts to become unimportant for casual users.

 

We'll see, but I actually think 5 years is probably conservative. I'd guess IP cams will take over 80% of the market in 2 years. As you say, we'll see, but I'm thinking it's a good time to be getting rid of analog gear while there's still a demand...

[shockwave199 0]

I see analog as a dying breed, except at the very cheapest segment of the market

The cheap segment will remain huge, so I don't know if the curtain will totally come down on analog for a modest home setup. But for someone like me who will be interested in making the switch, all that really has to be done is to make the IP experience the same as analog. There's already easier things about it such as POE. Good quality hardware NVRs that have POE to match the channel count, somehow being able to get into the camera menues from the hardware NVR, mix & match cameras like analog can, and nice CMS for remote management. That's all a typical home user needs to float their boat but with one huge difference for the effort- a much improved picture. When IP becomes true plug & play without exceptions, that's when analog dies for the home user. Most often they want a box you plug into the router and you plug any cameras into that box. Simple as that.

[MaxIcon 0]

Yeah, I'd agree with that. Expensive POE and true plug-and-play are the big stumbling blocks for the non-technical user. If ONVIF ever gets their act together, that would be half of it done, and more vendors (both surveillance and general home networking) integrating POE would bring the prices down.

[hubjeep 0]

Thinking about this folks... 8 channel NVR with HD and 4 cameras for $800.

http://www.bjs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10201&storeId=10201&partNumber=P_151156697&sc_cid=GPLA&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=151156697

 

My concerns are the 45* angle view, IIRC there is a replacement lens some used here to fix that.

[hubjeep 0]

Howdy all,

still looking for something better than what I have, looks like IP stuff is about the same, there was a Lorex kit I noticed here for $800, but still plenty of complaints about configuration, etc. The clear picture is great though... I have a monitor here next to my computer on all the time to see the driveways, no real security concerns just nice to look at and see who is coming.

 

My DVR is probably the worst part of the system, playback is awful, and I would like 8-channels (few more cameras). As much as box kits are frowned upon here, I am tempted to look into one as some have decent reviews especially for the money (better DVR than mine) to hold me over until IP stuff gets more budget-mainstream.

[hubjeep 0]

For the money, this looks pretty damn good, the DVR has a much nicer setup compared to my mega-cheapie I am currently using.

 

I am starting to think a lot of the "cheaper" cameras are about the same quality. I do have a couple VCM-24VF cameras that are built like tanks (and look "professional"), but have a similar picture to a couple other cheaper ones I bought for my moms house.

 

http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/203898956?productId=203898956&storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&ci_sku=203898956&ci_src=17588969&cm_mmc=shopping-_-googleads-_-pla-_-203898956&ci_gpa=pla#.Uh6ga7zAPx8

 

http://www.bjs.com/q-see-8-channel-h264-cifd1-itb-hard-drive-and-7-high-res-color-cameras-1-pointtilt-with-600-tvl-and-100-of-night-vision.product.230637?dimId=

[luckyfella 0]

I think even the cheaper analog cameras would look fine as long as they were installed in a suitable environment. Technically, there are not bad cameras that anyone sells, it's when people install them in areas that the camera cannot handle.

[icamera 0]

Analog is going....

 

Not long ago I was in a ferry station. 40 cameras for 40 turnstiles. And more cameras to monitor other views. Looked like analog Panasonic dome. I though to myself how much cheaper to install one 3MP dome for 4-5 turnstiles...

 

Government almost always overpays for camera and installation. So installing 40 analog camera as opposed to 10 IP MP is money wasted. Installation must have cost a fortune... Somebody probably retired from this one job....

[luckyfella 0]

Analog is going....

 

Not long ago I was in a ferry station. 40 cameras for 40 turnstiles. And more cameras to monitor other views. Looked like analog Panasonic dome. I though to myself how much cheaper to install one 3MP dome for 4-5 turnstiles...

 

Government almost always overpays for camera and installation. So installing 40 analog camera as opposed to 10 IP MP is money wasted. Installation must have cost a fortune... Somebody probably retired from this one job....

 

I would have to think even if you told the government that you could install 1 3mp camera for several turnstyles, they may not even want that. They would probably tell you that they want one camera focused on one turnstyle. One reason being if one camera goes out, they don't lose a few turnstyles, and another would be they just want to concentrate on one turnstyle at a time if

they need to playback or anything.

 

And, taxpayers almost always overpay for installations, not government

[icamera 0]

Very generous with other peoples money...

 

And, taxpayers almost always overpay for installations, not government

[shockwave199 0]

Has IP gotten cheap enough to replace budget analog?

 

In a word, no. But that will never be apples to apples. IP/MP systems will be more money- always. But what you're really asking is, are budget IP systems as cheap as budget analog. All the DIY'rs can really afford, and all they're really looking at is more budget garbage for a good deal more money with the promise of better resolution. And you do get that. Of course it's better resolution. But that is only one thing in the puzzle of putting a good system together and installing it well. Better resolution has been marketed well to ignorant. Of course it doesn't account for the other stuff that needs to be right, to actually be effective in a critical moment. It's really all about tilting the odds in your favor for that one, single, perfect frame to help ID someone. Higher resolution will tilt those odds, maybe, depending. Is it worth going to a budget IP system over analog today, even though it's gonna cost you more, at a fraction of the flexibility of analog system? I give it a yes, marginally. For better resolution, absolutely. For everything else, marginally, to no. Budget MP cameras are making strides, but it needs more time to be hammered out. Years more time. In the mean time, analog can still keep you covered, offer way more flexibility, and be much cheaper. IF it's installed well. But then, that goes for any system- even higher resolution ones.

 

Huh, another positive ID with analog

 

And another

 

And another

 

And another

 

Either choice can work...depending.

[hubjeep 0]

TWO YEARS LATER...

 

Where are we with digital/NVR?

 

In the next couple months I plan on moving my camera system to another house... have [under or about $1,000 with 6-8 camers] IP systems gotten "better" (more user friendly, I recall folks talking about hours of networking work after install, having issues with recording only with motion, etc). Do they still have user interfaces that look like they are from the 1990's?

 

Thanks,

John

[Boogieman 1]

TWO YEARS LATER...

 

Where are we with digital/NVR?

 

In the next couple months I plan on moving my camera system to another house... have [under or about $1,000 with 6-8 camers] IP systems gotten "better" (more user friendly, I recall folks talking about hours of networking work after install, having issues with recording only with motion, etc). Do they still have user interfaces that look like they are from the 1990's?

 

Thanks,

John

If you buy the camera and NVR from the same manufacturer and home run the cables directly from to the NVR, there is ZERO extra networking that needs to be done over an analog system. Its plug and play. Regardless of the way you go, run ethernet for future upgrades.

http://www.costco.com/Lorex-8-Channel-IP-NVR-with-2TB-HDD%2c-4-1080p-Cameras-with-130'-Night-Vision.product.100153164.html

http://www.costco.com/Lorex-8-Channel-IP-NVR-with-2TB-HDD%2c-8-1080p-Cameras-with-130'-Night-Vision.product.100217003.html#

Who cares what the interface looks like, its not a beauty contest. Function over form.

For the record, there was never hours of networking needed...it was only folks who did not know what they were doing who had issues.