Thermal Cameras

[Zark 0]

Has anyone used thermal imaging cameras? I need some advice. I want to do a research project evaluating the airway of sleeping subjects, comparing those with obstructive/mixed/central sleep apnea with normal controls. We want to see if degree of temperature change in the upper airway on a breath by breath basis, correlates with the % of airway obstruction/closure and most importantly, which part of the upper airway does not experience the expected temperature change thus identifying the location of airway closure. This is very important because right now no one is able to identify specific structures of airway closure during real time, so when people are referred for surgery of the upper airway to try and prevent sleep apnea and snoring, the surgeon performs a "general resection" instead of targeting specific tissue. Because the surgeon has no specific information as to what part of the airway to cut out, about 40-50% of the time the offending tissue is missed and the patient still has sleep apnea after going through very painful and expensive surgery. People occasionally die from this operation so there is a real need to locate the specific tissue or tissues causing the apnea, so we can either make the call to not operate or make operating a much more effective endeavor.

 

I want to place a thermal camera right up next to a patient's neck while asleep, having apnea, and try to see the temperature changes within the neck from a side view. I need advice as to cameras, lenses and so forth.

 

This would also enable people to have sleep studies without having to endure alot of wires placed all over the body.

 

Any help or leads would be appreciated.

 

Thanks

 

ZK

[Jasper 0]

The new Pillar procedure appears to be a promising one. It beats using a CPAP machine and all the pain in the butt of using one.

 

Are you doing some type of cutting edge research on Sleep Apnea?

What is the goal?

 

As far as thermal imaging cameras there are many types. I don’t know have any experience with using them, but I have read up on them.

 

There is some information in the forum regarding thermals. Do a search and see what you come up with. I know there was someone that seemed pretty knowledgeable in that area.

[rory 0]

There are a couple members that use Thermal. I know Ganz has a thermal camera, they definatally arent cheap, but perhaps there is something smaller than a professional thermal camera that will also work?

[Zark 0]

We primarily do research from a neurological standpoint, including original investigations through Phase IV FDA clinical trials. This deal with sleep apnea is one of many things we think about on a daily basis. The truth is, CPAP is the most effective treatment but not everyone can tolerate that. The many types of throat surgery are never more than 60% effective, and the ENT's definition of "effective" is a 50% reduction of symptoms on a follow up polysomnogram, which many would not consider effective at all. So all surgical treatments are just not where they need to be. One of our colleagues (ENT) is actually doing a procedure similar in theory to Hyoid Suspension in which he cuts a rectangular piece of bone out of the front of the chin, rotates it 90 degrees and attaches it back over the hole. Since the tongue tissue is attached to that chin bone, the forward advancement pulls the tongue a few millimeters ahead in an attempt to prevent it from relaxing back, occluding the airway. The problem is, many times the obstruction is lower in the neck, in an area the ENT's call the Devil's Triangle. They won't do surgery down there because complications are high. Right now we can't tell if the patient's problem includes this area. If we could see thermal images to locate this problem, then we would know exactly who surgery would work 100% for and be able to identify those in which surgery would not be successful. That would be a great advancement.

 

Sleep Medicine in general is about 30 years old. Relatively new. There's lots of things we have just not thought about yet.

 

Thanks for the replies, and rory, thanks for giving me some advice on cameras, etc. That's information I needed.

 

Our facility website is: www.raleighneurology.com

 

ZK

[rory 0]

No problem, when i make some $$, i need to come visit you

I have alot of those problems especially back pain (cant lay down for longer than 5 hours) and sleep apnea occasionally, mostly I just stay up on the PC too much anyway .. guess cutting out the diet pepsis would help too

 

Here is the link to the Ganz Thermal Cameras:

http://www.cbcamerica.com/cctvprod/ganz/cams/thermal/thermal.html

 

Rory

[Jasper 0]

You can’t have sleep apnea occasionally, either you have it or you don’t.

 

You probably snore occasionally Rory. Snoring can be a symptom of sleep Apnea.

 

It tends to run in families. People who are overweight are more prone.

Basically the tissue in your airway relaxes too much allowing your airway to become obstructed.

 

So your body wakes up several times during sleep to get you to start breathing again.

[WirelessEye 0]

I have good news for you, and bad news for you. For your application, you won't require zoom, which is makes any thermal camera much more expensive, that's the good news. The bad news is that the camera you require will not be one of the affordable "black and white" thermal cams that most security and government organizations use, that's the bad news.

 

You will have to look towards Raytheon's Thermal Eye, or someone similiar for a color thermal camera, as the black and white models will not show detailed heat differences that you need for your application. You can start here: http://www.thermal-eye.com/productcatalog/prodItem91.html

 

Couldn't give you a price on this one, I don't buy it. Expect in the neighborhood of $10k-$12k.

[Zark 0]

Thanks

 

I was thinking in the neighborhood of $12K.

 

Sure beats a million dollar MRI that won't really work well for this.

 

(The conventional sleep lab setup including recording equipment and facilites costs over $100,000 per bed. These figures are fresh on my mind as we just expanded from 4 to 8 sleep lab beds.)

 

ZK

[WirelessEye 0]

If your budget can afford it, you might spring for the higher resolution color thermal cameras, but that will jump you to around $15k. You'll have to head to FLIR for these pieces, I believe. I took a comparo shot a bit ago showing the difference between our standard optical cam and one of our older thermal cameras.

 

Keep in mind the thermal camera has a different fixed lens on it and so it's perspective is a bit different than the optical cams'. These happen to be on a 65' tall solar powered tower on a 9.85 mile wireless link, located at... you guessed it... the middle of nowhere....

 

Optical:

 

Thermal:

[rory 0]

cool, thats what I like to see

 

how'd you get up 65' though ?

[Zark 0]

There's just something about being able to see in the dark. I like it.

[WirelessEye 0]

All of our cameras are 65' high. They are mounted to the top of a 65' tall telescoping towers. Thermal works so good for us, we will soon be implementing them on all of our security towers. We obviously can't use them for evidence, but we don't need to, we just notify police if there's someone on the property that doesn't belong there. =)

[Jasper 0]

That is a nice setup. I love those thermal cameras.

[jeromephone 6]

would some type of collar with multiple thermal sensors work. you could log all the readings and show them on a "map" It might be possible to make such a device out of foam so wearing it would not be too bad may have to have a single multi pair wire attached or even rig up wireless to a recording device.

[Jasper 0]

I don’t think that would work. Because of the nature of sleep apnea I would think you would need to not interfere with the patient’s neck area at all. But I could be wrong. Maybe Zark can comment on this.

 

I like the idea though.

[ZK 0]

Some guy (doctor) made a static model of the airway with an MRI that was really nice and informative. However, the MRI cannot obtain real time images...I suppose you could call it "streaming" images or video. In a perfect scenario, I would be able to record a thermal picture of the airway, with hot spots being tissue that is not cooled down by inspiratory and expiratory airflow. I suppose the cooler tissue could be seen in real time, thus "modeling" the open airway during its movement. That would be perfect. This would work if we had to place sensors actually on the skin but I'm hoping to just place a camera on one side of the neck.

 

There are no current methods to do this. We have to rely on indirect measures of airflow, such as taping thermistors/thermocouples/pressure transducers into the nasal airflow or attaching a snug facemask hooked to a pneumotachometer or a different method that requires inserting an esophageal balloon to measure pressure swings...that one is not very pleasant, but is considered the "gold standard" for measuring airway resistance. So we have to rely on indirect methods of measuring things instead of being able to "see" exactly what the problem is.

 

Some really smart scientists thought this stuff up...they did the best they could with what was available. There has got to be a better way.

 

I would be happy even if we had to strap a camera to the pt's neck. It would not be any worse than what we have to do to them already.

[jisaac 0]

I just got an extensive amount of experience with thermal imaging.

Pm me i will give you my phone number.

[Jasper 0]

Is a Functional MRI not useful in this area? Or is this like streaming video as you’re referred to it above?

 

What information is gained through using a thermal camera that would help a patient more than the current methods used?

 

In a sleep study they already have to wear a mask like an Air force pilot and many electrodes for monitoring. And then they are asked to sleep while wearing these. Is what you’re trying too do more for cumulative study for later scientific analysis?

 

How small of temperature changes are you trying to monitor?

[ZK 0]

1. That was a good thought but any type of MRI is impractical because we would need pictures with a sampling rate of 20hz for a period of 6 hours or more. Capitol and operating expenses would be prohibitive. (Medicare requires a minimum of 6 hours recording time for several reasons, one of which is it may take most of the night for obstructive sleep apnea to begin. Sounds strange but some people don't have problems until the last 1 or 2 hours of the sleep period.)

 

If thermal would work, capitol and operating expenses would be low enough to be routinely covered by 3rd party payors. No one will touch a procedure if it can't be reimbursed.

 

2. Current methods tell nothing about what part of the airway is collapsing. They only infer "airway resistance," generally establishing that there is a problem, not what or where it is. If we can determine exactly what/where is the problem, we can use more specific, or more appropriate methods to treat it. Some people will be excluded from certain ENT procedures because there is clear evidence those procedures will have no positive effect at all.

 

3. I want to be able to obtain much more precise information while using less wires. Of course if it works everyone will be studying this for years to come.

 

4. Temperature changes. That's a question I cannot answer. I'll have to either research the information or experiment. I'm sure it would not be more than 20 degrees. However, all I really need to see is [a] temperature change or even a slight gradient. I don't have to measure temperature so much as just see a difference in temperature.

 

ZK

[jeromephone 6]

i just checked out this website seems they are doing some bio medical stuff http://www.x20.org/thermal/movies.htm

[ZK 0]

Thanks

 

ZK