Cameras Per Server, Config and Prices

[connelly73 0]

OK first off thanks for the help and advice so far now starting to get to grips with the IP VMS side of things. I've been looking at both Milestone and Avigilon and like both but have a problem with both systems??

 

I'm trying to understand the architecture of each system in that how many cameras can each physical server process, what is a typical system layout (or how would I find this) and PRICES!!! (not wanting exact just a rough idea.

 

If I gave an example it might help.

Looking at a small 22 camera system so that the client can view live images on one monitor. They only occasionally look at these and on occasion a remote site would also connect in over a 10M Ethernet link. I would imagine I could install a decent spec server at site (going with avigilon recommended spec say quad xeon processor, 8G Ram, decent video card, 1G Network card, 2TB 7200 HDD for either VMS) This could cope with live view of a few cameras at a time and playback but how many cameras can it take?? I read up to 16 then on other pages up to 128? is this dependant on what ACC server software loaded ie core, standard or enterprise? If I went for standard for example and reached the 24 cameras is it as simple as adding another server to take up to another 24 but still have one server running the client ACC?

 

I asked a milestone rep to provide a cost for a system capable of running up to 12 cameras (only running 6) and was looking at server and workstation with software cost nearly £18,000!! the server spec looked way more than the recommended spec milestone and avigilon quote?

 

If I had a rough idea of what avigilon would cost per licence for each flavour then would be easier to work this out myself for clients.

 

Any help, advice, diagrams, etc much appreciated and sorry if my question seem pretty easy but just finding my feet here and would like to increase my knowledge of these systems.

[thewireguys 3]

Please talk to your local Avigilon rep for more information.

 

The different versions of Aviglion CORE, STANDARD and ENTERPRISE allow for different camera counts. Just like Milestone does with there different versions.

 

After that the amount of cameras your system can handle is dependent on bandwidth and system hardware. Milestone is going to require better hardware for the same camera count as Avigilon because Milestone uses server based motion detection where Avigilon does motion detection on the cameras. If your new to IP your best bet is get some cameras and test both VMS plateforms for yourself.

[buellwinkle 0]

What brand cameras are you getting or is that not decided yet? To get the most cameras on the slowest PC you need software capable of using the camera's motion detection instead of using it's own. The most common software for this is ExacqVision, but the cameras supported may be limited so make sure the cameras you are buying work with this.

 

I believe Milestone does this but only for certain cameras.

 

The other choice is go with a brand that provides the software. To me, the best NVR software I've used is ACTi NVR 3.0, but only works with their cameras and 16 cameras for free, after that you pay. Have not tried Avigilon so can't comment if it's better or worse. Clearly if you are buying Avigilon cameras, that's the way to go.

 

Lastly is to go with a camera that has the NVR solution built in like Axis Edge or Mobotix. Unfortunately, Axis Camera Companion only works with up to 16 cameras, so that leaves Mobotix. I like Mobotix because you can have clusters of 3-4 cameras writing to a NAS near the cameras and then view and manage them all from one PC with their free CMS software. Very low CPU use since the cameras do all the heavy lifting.

[connelly73 0]

Trying to go for an open standard system hence milestone, avigilon, etc... I'm looking a general SPEC of hardware to run different amounts of camera. Local reps are too pushy trying sell if I can get an understanding of how many basic 1mega pixel ip cameras per server for each version of software I can make basic recommendations and know what is over the top or not powerfully enough when it comes to hardware.

 

My previous example was for older analogue cameras encoded using axis encoders. Connected on its own network. If I went with standard avigilon acc server software how many cameras would each physical server take. Do you need the server licence for each additional server or is it a licence per server?

[ssmith10pn 0]

My previous example was for older analogue cameras encoded using axis encoders. Connected on its own network. If I went with standard avigilon acc server software how many cameras would each physical server take. Do you need the server licence for each additional server or is it a licence per server?

 

The license is per camera not per server. You can have 24 licenses spread across as many servers you want.

 

On Production servers we shoot for a total bandwidth of 256mbps total throughput so obviously your question is more complicated then how many cameras.

It could be 20 5mp JPeg 2000 cameras at 5 frames per second.

It could be 24 encoders at 10 frames per second and 10 1mp cameras at 5 frames per second.

How much live viewing? That all counts towards the 256mbps

If you have a client with 4 monitors with 16 cameras on each monitor that can be significant

 

How many cameras per sever is an open ended question with lots of variables.

 

Normally I install DU meter and watch the total bandwith and add cameras until I either hit the limit or run out of storage.

Since they are recording by motion detection that plays a huge roll in the storage demands.

[ssmith10pn 0]

 

[thewireguys 3]

Here are the different features of Avigilons software:

 

http://avigilon.com/#/products/avigilon-control-center/editions/

 

Again Enterprise can support 128 cameras but your limiting factor is bandwidth and hardware.

 

example: (not real numbers) You might one get 40 1080P cameras running on one server if your running max FPS and bit rate. To get 128 1080P cameras on one server you would have to reduce frame rate and bandwidth.

 

As you can see total camera counts on servers mean nothing it is all about bandwidth.

 

Avigilon does motion detection on camera no on the server and if you use there cameras the system is plug and play. This saves a substantial amount of time installing systems making you more profitable and saves the customer money. Something Milestone can not offer.

[buellwinkle 0]

Also, avoid using home PC's for this and to me what you've chosen seems like a consumer PC. Consider and HP DL380 server, 2U tall, can hold 16 or 26 drives, dual xeon where you can get 16 or 20 cores. Then you can run less effecient software like Milestone without a problem. If you want to stay 3rd party and not go with camera vendor's software there's plenty of choices, Milestone is the most popular, there's NUUO, Luxriot, ExacqVision and plenty that does analytics like Geovision

[thewireguys 3]

Big expensive server + lots of prep/setup time + recurring fees for support = Milestone

 

less CPU power lower cost server + plug and play + free 24/7 support = Avigilon

[ssmith10pn 0]

I'm actually running Avigilon Server on My desktop at home along with the client.

2 4channel encoders

1 2mp H264

1 2mp Jpeg2000

1 5mp jpeg2000

1 1mp jpeg2000

 

4 1/2 TB of storage and I have recorded video back to December.

 

[connelly73 0]

Thanks ssmith10pn your answers really helped! It makes sense the way you have put it so when I see this on the avigilon website then this workstation (with their recommended spec) is capable of up to about 64 cameras depending on camera megapixel, encoder settings, frame rate etc.....

 

HD NVR Workstation

 

The NVR workstation is ideally suited for smaller systems and for those needing to view live and recorded image data directly on the NVR (recording up to 10 MB/s of image data from up to 64 cameras).

 

When I see this on their site:

 

HD NVR Server

 

Our Network Video Recorders (NVRs) have Avigilon Control Center preloaded and configured for maximum performance and reliability, making them easy to integrate into any Avigilon surveillance system. NVR servers can record up to 32 MB/s of image data from up to 128 cameras.

 

This is the same depending on network and camera type, rate, etc... but for recording only the worktaion below:

 

HD NVR Workstation

 

The NVR workstation is ideally suited for smaller systems and for those needing to view live and recorded image data directly on the NVR (recording up to 10 MB/s of image data from up to 64 cameras).

 

or similar would do the processing of the live video.

 

Please tell me if I'm on the right track and where does the core, standard and enterprise license come in?? Is that features and if you want a small system you start with all cameras on core then move up license for all cameras to standard? (the acc software is the same but recognises the licence type from the cameras to allow the additional features and the ability to connect up 72 cameas and three servers? Just stating this as I keep hearing its a license per camera with avigilon not server and camera like milestone?)

 

Thanks again for all the help been very very useful

[ak357 0]

 

Please tell me if I'm on the right track and where does the core, standard and enterprise license come in?? Is that features and if you want a small system you start with all cameras on core then move up license for all cameras to standard? (the acc software is the same but recognises the licence type from the cameras to allow the additional features and the ability to connect up 72 cameas and three servers? Just stating this as I keep hearing its a license per camera with avigilon not server and camera like milestone?)

 

Have a look

[connelly73 0]

Sorry still don't get the license bit?? Does that mean you buy a license for each bit of hardware ie cameras encoders, severs, client pc?? What you posted makes sense but when I hear you only buy a license per camera where does the core, standard, and enterprise come in? Do you get this free to install on any server or viewing client and it recognizes the license from the camera or is it a server license and each camera license is priced different depending on what version of the acc you are running. HELP.

[Kawboy12R 0]

ssmith10pn, nice real-world numbers there, thanks. Looks like a nice hybrid setup on a less-than-current computer. I see the CPU temp but that's just running the server, not the client displaying all of the cameras, right? What's CPU utilization (ballpark) with lots of recording and displaying all cameras? 10/100 switch? Plugged into the router or its own NIC on your server?

 

Sorry to the OP for the semi-hijack although this is more or less on topic.

[thewireguys 3]

Sorry still don't get the license bit?? Does that mean you buy a license for each bit of hardware ie cameras encoders, severs, client pc?? What you posted makes sense but when I hear you only buy a license per camera where does the core, standard, and enterprise come in? Do you get this free to install on any server or viewing client and it recognizes the license from the camera or is it a server license and each camera license is priced different depending on what version of the acc you are running. HELP.

 

The software is FREE you pay a licenses to connect a device (cameras and encoders) and you have three difference versions of the software to chose from depending on your system size. There are no server or client licensing costs.

[ak357 0]

ssmith10pn, nice real-world numbers there, thanks. Looks like a nice hybrid setup on a less-than-current computer. I see the CPU temp but that's just running the server, not the client displaying all of the cameras, right? What's CPU utilization (ballpark) with lots of recording and displaying all cameras? 10/100 switch? Plugged into the router or its own NIC on your server?

 

Sorry to the OP for the semi-hijack although this is more or less on topic.

I can assure you that Scott ( ssmith10pn) create separate sub net for camera

[connelly73 0]

Thanks wire guys finally got it. Take it also easy to upgrade if you start out on core?

[Kawboy12R 0]

Plugged into the router or its own NIC on your server?

 

I can assure you that Scott ( ssmith10pn) create separate sub net for camera

 

Just checking to see how the network architecture handled things, regardless of theoretical good/better/best.

[ak357 0]

 

Just checking to see how the network architecture handled things, regardless of theoretical good/better/best.

That fair

Seriously in " true" and not so true corporate environment

any decent IT person will not want Cam traffic to be on the same subnet

and with Avigilon it get even more simpler

You do not have to have DHCP and Do Not have to to assign IP to camera

just pure magic

[ssmith10pn 0]

Thanks ssmith10pn your answers really helped! It makes sense the way you have put it so when I see this on the avigilon website then this workstation (with their recommended spec) is capable of up to about 64 cameras depending on camera megapixel, encoder settings, frame rate etc.....

 

HD NVR Workstation

 

The NVR workstation is ideally suited for smaller systems and for those needing to view live and recorded image data directly on the NVR (recording up to 10 MB/s of image data from up to 64 cameras).

 

When I see this on their site:

 

HD NVR Server

 

Our Network Video Recorders (NVRs) have Avigilon Control Center preloaded and configured for maximum performance and reliability, making them easy to integrate into any Avigilon surveillance system. NVR servers can record up to 32 MB/s of image data from up to 128 cameras.

 

This is the same depending on network and camera type, rate, etc... but for recording only the worktaion below:

 

HD NVR Workstation

 

The NVR workstation is ideally suited for smaller systems and for those needing to view live and recorded image data directly on the NVR (recording up to 10 MB/s of image data from up to 64 cameras).

 

or similar would do the processing of the live video.

 

Please tell me if I'm on the right track and where does the core, standard and enterprise license come in?? Is that features and if you want a small system you start with all cameras on core then move up license for all cameras to standard? (the acc software is the same but recognises the licence type from the cameras to allow the additional features and the ability to connect up 72 cameas and three servers? Just stating this as I keep hearing its a license per camera with avigilon not server and camera like milestone?)

 

Thanks again for all the help been very very useful

 

Be aware of MBs and Mbps

 

10MBs = 80mbps

32MBs = 256Mbps

Byte = B Bit = b

8 bits in a byte.

We never refer to network speeds in Bytes so I don't know why Avigilon does in their literature.

[ssmith10pn 0]

ssmith10pn, nice real-world numbers there, thanks. Looks like a nice hybrid setup on a less-than-current computer. I see the CPU temp but that's just running the server, not the client displaying all of the cameras, right? What's CPU utilization (ballpark) with lots of recording and displaying all cameras? 10/100 switch? Plugged into the router or its own NIC on your server?

 

Sorry to the OP for the semi-hijack although this is more or less on topic.

 

 

It's raining currently, So recording should be full tilt.

 

See if this helps.

 

[ssmith10pn 0]

My downstream on my desktop with the server running and the client running is 34Mb

I had it on a 100mb switch. I am paying for a 50Mb internet connection and I was only getting 19 on speed tests.

I changed over to gig switch and now I get my 50Mb internet otherwise It worked fine at 100Mb

I have Bitturrent running also

[ssmith10pn 0]

 

Just checking to see how the network architecture handled things, regardless of theoretical good/better/best.

That fair

Seriously in " true" and not so true corporate environment

any decent IT person will not want Cam traffic to be on the same subnet

and with Avigilon it get even more simpler

You do not have to have DHCP and Do Not have to to assign IP to camera

just pure magic

 

 

 

My home environment is all the same subnet with 2 SG 300-10MP Cisco Switches

Just for kicks and giggles my neighbors DVR went out so I'm going to stick a encoder down at his house and link it back with Nano stations.

 

 

Now on the corporate side we do secure Vlans mostly with HP Pro Curve Infrastructure.

 

I have one hospital that insisted we ride their network (with a seperate Vlan). They use Nortel (Avaia) 5520 48port poe gig ports and 4 SFP ports. and 8600 core switches. They are now asking for a proposal for putting all the video on a separate system because when their IT department jacks up the system they loose live video in some critical areas and thats not an option.

 

They had a company come in and update their core switches during a scheduled 8hr downtime. 36 hours later we were still troubleshooting pockets of outages because the ARP table got corrupt.

[Kawboy12R 0]

Thx Scott, much appreciated.