What has happened to this forum

[cctv_down_under 0]

Ok - so I have been away a few years, but when this forum was set up and ther was just a few of us (yes I am a founding memeber - even if that has now gone from my description) - The aim of this forum was to educate the end user on why NOT to buy cheap junk products from China, the issue was that Installers and system integrators were facing competition because of a lack of knowledge by the end user and cheap imports installed by back yarders.

 

 

But after returning to this forum after many years away....all I see is cheap nasty product being bandied around by almost everybody - I am not going to pretend that Chinese QA has gotten better and NO I am not racist, my GF is Asian - and hell I have imported some cheap junk before... but almost everyone is pushing these cheap junk systems.

 

 

The end users are relying on us to inform them of quality products... so what gives...

 

I heard a disturbing accustation that product PDF links are changed to other cheap brands and that other products are not allowed to be shown to end users - please tell me this is false Larry?????

 

Again - this forum was set up when Larry wanted to learn more - there was no decent forum at the time - so he created one to assist others....how has it been hijacked by cheap imported crud?

[larry 2]

Hello mate.

 

I am running for the train but I will answer your question later today.

 

Good to see you back.

[larry 2]

Well, to answer your question as to what happened to the forum. The answer is...nothing has happened. Just a forum evolving with the times.

 

Over time, people find better more cost effective solutions than the same old names. I can remember when Geovision was the hot brand here, now it's found some competition.

 

To your comment of cheap Chinese brands. What is not manufactured in Asia now days? Most of your "professional" brands are made somewhere in Asia.

 

To your other concerns; I really have no clue what you are referring to. All I can say is the forum is still here; will continue to change with the times and hopefully grow better with age. Considering this year marks 10 years that this place has been around, there are definitely things I am planning to add here to make it a more useful resource for surveillance information.

[Mrcarcrazy 0]

 

I heard a disturbing accustation that product PDF links are changed to other cheap brands and that other products are not allowed to be shown to end users - please tell me this is false Larry?????

I brought this up when I was trying to post info about a product I'd purchased and my words were changed as to mask the brand name that I'd bought. That experience alone chapped me on this forum. I check back now and again hoping to see a ray of light. But overall I've given up. I know that many forums have their alliances. Some are more obvious than others...I am just a home owner who has enough basic electronics knowledge to build his own system. My state won't allow me to open a small business doing this without first installing full time professionally for 2 consecutive years. I cant afford to take that pay cut just for the chance to start a small business. So I just do this is a hobby on my residence. Learning about these cameras and systems is a daunting experience as everyone here knows. It's frustrating for a newcomer to join a forum only to find out that he cannot trust the majority of what he sees. ( for a few reasons which are obvious and don't need to be pointed out).

 

Anywho. Aussie. I concur with your assessment of the situation. Luckily I don't have much invested...perceived loss is limited.

 

As to the cheap china stuff. It seems that the market is dominated by cheap crap. Not Long ago there were some cheaply priced cams that outperform new higher priced (in relation to old cams) cams. I believe this is the manufacturers pushing everyone towards megapixel cams by offering only crap in tvl cams. (Jaded? Maybe)

 

The low end megapixel cams still aren't worth the money they charge. I can't comment on the higher end. But I do believe its moderately overpriced.

[cctv_down_under 0]

There is a big difference in Manufacturing something and assembling it, also although Larry is correct that a a lot is "made" in asia - that does not mean that it has not gone through a QA process that is non Asian.. for example a lot of the majors now move to cheap assembly plants - however they dont use the cheapest possible electronics and the QA process is handed dwon from ex European standards and therefore QA testing is better.

 

Considering how many people are in here and the lack of reputable brands being mentioned - I am concerned, the biggest players int he industry now offer cheaper ranges of parts - and that would not be a lot more than the cheap chinese crud I am seeing bandied about in here - but its not mentioned.

 

 

Larry, I am happy to contribute my valuable time - but not if its true that people suggesting parts have their suggestion changed to a "favoured" product.. I would like some clarification if this has occurred and will continue to occur and if so - why - are they sponsoring the site through advertising?

[cctv_down_under 0]

Is there a "Consultant" group..Im not really an integrator?

[shockwave199 0]

So far since you've been posting all I see you mention is everything is crud. You can start by re-educating people to good product and why- that would be constructive. Want a better forum with better info? Help lead the way. Otherwise you're just ranting.

[HiddenMountain 0]

Reguarding cheap Chinese crap...

 

I was of the same opinion as you. They are notorious for the shoddy construction of just about everything! The CCTV world is no exception.

 

However, I have a short story that may open your eyes...

 

I have a good friend who is a gunsmith. Top notch, best of the best craftsman. He was working at a sporting goods store for years when the owners sold to some Chinese immigrants... He was, um, PO'ed, but since he had customers who he valued, he stayed on. He made it quite obvious to the new owners that he didn't like them.

 

One day the new owner came to him and asked him why he was so hostile to him.

 

He said, or rather yelled, "I hate cheap Chinese crap!"

 

The new owner surprised him by agreeing with him. He explained, in China you literally get what you pay for. You want something for 50 cents? Someone will make it. You want the same thing for 50 dollars? someone will make it. The problem is the West's addiction to low cost stuff. If you want quality, they are quite capable of providing it, but you will pay for it, just as if you were buying the same thing made in Germany.

 

He got the message and no, his store doesn't sell cheap Chinese crap...

[Mrcarcrazy 0]

Hey down under. I'm curious what brands you are referring to as higher quality/lower cost. Being new to the CCTV world. I only know the brands I've seen here and some a friend overseas has shown me. Sadly the best cams I've seen of his aren't sold anymore.

[daveshoot 0]

Funny, I check this forum at least once a day, and I don't have a single camera yet. It has helped immensely in planning (CAT5 going everywhere now as part of the irrigation project), and in what not to waste time on.

 

Since I am a DIYer with some background in ancient Flintstone-era CCTV, this place has really helped bring me up to speed on network cams, wiring, NVRs, etc.

 

I will say the industry's distribution is a confusing mess, which might be a good thing for the pros (?). With all the private labels, box houses, and Asia-direct names, it is very hard to know what you're getting, or how to choose what to get. And that has been a big part of the value of this forum, to me.

 

If I was a pro charging for legal-grade industrial systems, and a customer saw a 4 channel IR system at Costco for 600 bucks, it would chap me that I now had to explain the difference in quality, price, experience, and professional installation techniques (we deal with that in our industry, too). On the other hand, it is not very easy for that customer to get that information or validate what he's told via the web, due to the brand proliferation and lack of objective reviews.

 

As a DIYer, I guess I would really like a Pelco-Mobotix-Avigilon kind of setup, but I am not going to afford it. I don't want to throw my cash away, either. I want the best I can afford, and reading here has upped my budget some, because it has conditioned my expectations. That's what information does.

 

So if anyone wishes to post quality information, I am all ears and eyes. BTW, as someone who works with Chinese contract manufacturing, I'll venture that you get out of China exactly what you put into China. If you throw some specs and CADs over the wall and expect top quality back, you are new at this. If you are shoulder to shoulder on expectations and technique throughout the setup and QA process, you will get what you need. Price and time are up to you. It's all coming from there anyway, so you tell me what labels to buy.

[groovyman 0]

But after returning to this forum after many years away....all I see is cheap nasty product being bandied around by almost everybody but almost everyone is pushing these cheap junk systems.

Yupp. Seems that many current active members discuss & recommend the cheap stuff rather than the better quality equipment.

 

The end users are relying on us to inform them of quality products... so what gives...

I believe this is due to quite a few professional members no longer being active (for various reasons).

 

I heard a disturbing accustation that product PDF links are changed to other cheap brands and that other products are not allowed to be shown to end users - please tell me this is false Larry?????

It's true. Sometime last year there was a perceived issue with an active member (or members). Afterward links to the member's company name, website and product line were removed. Today if you try to mention that member's company name in a post it will not show. I don't know how many company names this happens with.

 

Again - this forum was set up when Larry wanted to learn more - there was no decent forum at the time - so he created one to assist others....how has it been hijacked by cheap imported crud?

I don't think it was hijacked, just more people discussing inexpensive systems for residential & small business use. Quite a few of the more seasoned members with life experieince in the world of CCTV are no longer here. There are still some active, professional and very knowledgeable members here, but it seems the product they represent and know are out of the scope, reach and budgets of the DIY'er who is looking for advice on an inexpensive system for their home or small business.

 

I don't post here very often anymore because it seems the most popular discussions surround dahua, qsee & costco, none of which I'm interested in. Also seems like when someone starts a discussion on more professional systems it's compared to the qsee & dahua, like they're some sort of benchmark. Rubbish I say. But, talk bad about these cheap systems and you're shot down.

[shockwave199 0]

I do agree that experienced members left. And also, it's exhausting trying wade through the tide of cheap system threads, for experienced members. After a while they'll throw up their arms and say I give- buy what you want....not even gonna bother debating about it anymore. It's rare to see someome come in and say money is no object, I want only the good stuff. It's all diy on a budget and the budget systems have invaded the IP/MP market now, so that forum is all about that too now. The only thing I'll say, just from being around every day, is that not many who are buying the budget stuff are crying that it sucks or is broken all the time. There's mostly information gathering, but not much 'I just bought utter crap' threads. Jeez, I have a q-see analog dvr with modest cameras and it's been fine for years now- doing what I expected of it...maybe even a little better than I expected. The budget systems for IP/MP have yet to prove themselves. Time will tell. But diy people able to heed advise to spend large bucks on expensive cameras is gonna be rare here. I wouldn't count on that changing...ever. The only way it would swing back is if enough people lose money on crap gear and they learn- cheap is cheap, cheap is expensive.

[Q2U 0]

What probably happened is ignorant members, members much like myself who need to operate on a shoestring budget and who know just enough technology to be dangerous.

 

I work for a small business which is committed to technology but whose budget forces us to operate on a dime. We've got a reasonably sophisticated setup; we run our own mail, web and RDP servers, and we host our own IP phone system. But most of our equipment is a generation or two old (except the phones). When we need a new PC, we pull it out of a dumpster somewhere, or we buy from from Dell DFS direct, not Dell retail. And when we buy an extra Avaya IP phone we purchase it on eBay for $75.00, not from a retailer for $275.00. When something breaks, I fix it. But I also do sales calls, deal with problem customers, handle national accounts and shovel snow. When I decided to try an IP camera it was out of curiosity and it proved intriguing. So I pulled an old Dell Precision 670 dual 3.19 Xeon processor work station out of a closet and hung two Vivotek FD8136's and two Dahua IPC-HDB3200C's off it. I bought a 4TB 7200 rpm USB3 external drive from Costco and a USB3 card with a small 1GB POE switch from Newegg. And I then purchased Blue Iris and half a dozen droid and IOS apps.

 

If I total all this up (and value the Dell 670 @ $200.00) I spent approximately $1,500.00 for this set up. This is a lot of friggin' money for us to spend on something, and while I would like to have purchased a quad core i7 server with 32GB of ram, mirrored raid 15,000 RPM drives and 6 Axis 5MP cameras that just ain't realistic...

 

So I had to settle for mostly Chinese Qrap which seems to be functioning reasonably well so far.

Edited April 11, 2013 by Guest

[larry 2]

Excuse me, but no one here has ever been denied the option of discussing whatever system they choose to recommend.

 

So please, recommend a system at whatever price point you wish.

 

Also, the "cheap" systems most recommend here are Dahua based. What is so inferior with that manufacturer?

 

I just don't get what the problem is. People generally buy what they can afford. Cheap junk is identified by user dissatifaction. That's the way it's supposed to work - or am I missing something here?

[survtech 0]

Larry,

 

I think the main issue here is that once upon a time, many discussions here were highly sophisticated and technical and dealt with complex issues. Now the vast majority of discussions consist of DIY'ers and Costco systems that are, at the very least, unchallenging.

 

I'm not saying that is wrong, just that the bulk of discussions hold little interest to many of us.

 

I still read and post here occasionally but the percentage of discussions that interest me has declined tremendously. In that respect, cctvforum is not alone. LinkedIn is in the same boat. Many of us have moved on from both here and there. I think you'll find a number of your ex-members have moved from both forums to places like IPVM.

[Q2U 0]

As technology evolves and becomes more accessible (ergo, less expensive) it filters down to us ignorant masses huddled in our dilapidated garages tinkering with Qrappy Chinese hardware whilst The Whitecoats curse Moore and wish his infernal law had never seen the light of day.

 

Yea I say...onward! And I say those who are lifting the world upward and onward are those who encourage more than criticize....actually it was Elizabeth Harrison who said that.

[Q2U 0]

...maybe I should have added something about "...your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to see..."

[larry 2]

I think the main issue here is that once upon a time, many discussions here were highly sophisticated and technical and dealt with complex issues. Now the vast majority of discussions consist of DIY'ers and Costco systems that are, at the very least, unchallenging.

 

I have to disagree with this assessment. From the beginning, most questions are about equipment selection or purchasing options or FAQ type of inquiries. Like "What's the best brand for..." "How do I view my cameras from..." "Where can I purchase ..." "Where should I place cameras for..." "How do I install a wireless..."

 

Over time, the residential market has exploded and more people are putting cameras in their homes; so the questions are more on the level of what a DIY'er or novice would ask. Being a DIY'er myself, I don't mind that at all.

 

As I stated before, things evolve. Analog was the king when this forum started; now it's all about IP. IP is not only the future; it is the now. I believe IP has already surpassed analog in sales; but this is my uneducated opinion.

 

I still read and post here occasionally but the percentage of discussions that interest me has declined tremendously. In that respect, cctvforum is not alone. LinkedIn is in the same boat. Many of us have moved on from both here and there. I think you'll find a number of your ex-members have moved from both forums to places like IPVM.

 

Personally, I read IPVM too- it's an excellent resource. And I am not even in the CCTV business; I write software. They are a successful subscription based service; this is a free forum that does not generate much revenue. We both attract different, and similar types of CCTV enthusiast.

 

Plus, people just move on from sites naturally. I participate in a few software development forums. Some I participate in less frequently than I did earlier.

 

Fact of the matter is; I still think this site still helps people make informed decisions. Some new members may not make use of the search function as much as they should and ask redundant questions. This site doesn't aggregate the most frequently asked questions and place those questions in an easily accessible area - that has to be corrected.

[cctv_down_under 0]

If I was a pro charging for legal-grade industrial systems, and a customer saw a 4 channel IR system at Costco for 600 bucks, it would chap me that I now had to explain the difference in quality, price, experience, and professional installation techniques (we deal with that in our industry, too). On the other hand, it is not very easy for that customer to get that information or validate what he's told via the web, due to the brand proliferation and lack of objective reviews.

 

Which IMHO is the reason that the forum was started - obviously wrong about that.

 

 

I have a question, is it actually legal to home install (yourself) CCTV in the USA, because one must be licenced here, In fact legally to offer any advice (including in forums here) one must be licenced - pretty suprised that is not the case in the US as well.

 

To sell security, install it or give advice - requires a licence in most countries I have ever been in ---- is this the case in USA

[groovyman 0]

I have a question, is it actually legal to home install (yourself) CCTV in the USA, because one must be licenced here, In fact legally to offer any advice (including in forums here) one must be licenced - pretty suprised that is not the case in the US as well.

 

To sell security, install it or give advice - requires a licence in most countries I have ever been in ---- is this the case in USA

I believe different states have different requirements. Where I live (Florida) any type of electrical work needs to be performed by a licensed individual or business. But, surprise surprise, people don't always follow the rules.

Florida services that require a license (electrical):

http://www.myfloridalicense.com/dbpr/pro/division/Servicesthatrequirealicense_Electrical.html

[larry 2]

I can buy a lot and build my own home if I wanted - as long as I follow municipal code and an inspector blesses my work.

 

There will always be those that do it themselves. There will always be those that want someone else to do it for them.

[shockwave199 0]

I laugh when I see home depot or lowes commercials that make you feel like you have to get the hell up and do stuff ALL the time. When did *I* become expected to be a plumber, a landscaper, a roofer, a window installer, lay my own floors, a painter, an electrician, a woodworker, put my own rugs down, update my own kitchen & bathroom, install vanities & mirrors, put new garage doors on, install exterior lighting fixtures and low accent lighting, build your own FURNITURE, and FIX all that crap along the way. I had one shelf fall down in a closet last year. It was old. Before I was done I installed a whole new closet organizing system, a new rug, new lighting, new closet doors, and painted the whole damn room....because a shelf fell down.

 

Install my own CCTV? Heh- just another thing on the list.

 

[groovyman 0]

The only thing I'll say, just from being around every day, is that not many who are buying the budget stuff are crying that it sucks or is broken all the time. There's mostly information gathering, but not much 'I just bought utter crap' threads.

There may not be many posts with the title 'I just bought utter crap', but here's a sampling of recent posts that basically say just that Let's keep it real

Also, I've posted in the past that I've used some QSee systems at a few locations. Within 3-4 years they have all been replaced due to failure of one sort or another.

 

IP Cameras Keeps loosing connection. viewtopic.php?f=19&t=35326

how to reset admin password on Dahua DVR0804LE-AS (This is scary) viewtopic.php?f=3&t=34614

Q-See QT 528 cannot port forward cannot remote view viewtopic.php?f=12&t=29871

Dahua DVr active x configuration viewtopic.php?f=3&t=35321

Dahua HFW2100 IR LEDs failing viewtopic.php?f=19&t=35299

Dahua firmware viewtopic.php?f=19&t=33328

Dahua 16ch POE NVR & HDBW3202 motion detect issues viewtopic.php?f=54&t=35301

Dahua HDB3200c Artifacts / Bright Colour Problem viewtopic.php?f=53&t=35296

dahua dvr (concerns blur) viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35281

Poor picture quality - new installation (QSee) viewtopic.php?f=6&t=34947

Problems with cameras connected to POE switch (Dahua) viewtopic.php?f=12&t=35266

Dahua PSS Software poor video quality viewtopic.php?f=6&t=30653

Need Help with q-see 600TVL cam acting up viewtopic.php?f=5&t=35214

Adding more than 4 cameras to QC808 viewtopic.php?f=3&t=34888

Dahua DVR login box fails to load viewtopic.php?f=3&t=35107

Dahua HFW2100 x TP-Link WDR4300 viewtopic.php?f=19&t=35035

connection problem Dahua IPC-HDBW3300 viewtopic.php?f=19&t=35132

Q-See. Are these people shameless or what? viewtopic.php?f=3&t=34538

Dahua FW2100 Night Vision viewtopic.php?f=19&t=35006

[shockwave199 0]

I get you, but more often than not I question user error ahead of product error.

[EarlT 0]

With no warranty support for the Dahua branded cameras people need to be aware they are risking their money. At least with the previous low cost darling CNB you could get support. I'm just glad to see ACTI's new offerings. Hopefully people with shift their $ that way and have an actual support system behind them.