Need help finding outdoor PTZ with tracking

[Bouci 0]

Hi,

 

I am trying to find a reasonably priced, yet trustworthy outdoor PTZ that can operate 24/7 and act on it's own upon motion detection. It should have automatic tracking and capturing (i.e. imaging, not physical capturing of subjects. There is no operator who can react to any motion detection events so the camera has to be able to react and track on its own.

 

The conditions are quite demanding: premises can be entered from all directions (forest all around the house & yard) and light can be sparse during the Finnish winter. I am going to fix the lighting problem by installing several Steinel PIR detectors that control five 30W LED floodlights on all sides of the building. So there should be plenty of light regardless of ambient light, and light direction & angles should be optimal (i.e. the faces of potential intruders will be lit).

 

I am looking to install two PTZs in diagonally opposite corners of the house, under the eaves. That way I should get near 360 degree coverage. I looked at some Axis top models but the ones with tracking were too expensive. I am a bit at loss right now.

 

I was also considering installing up to 5-6 dome cameras (that have 5mp resolution and about 90 degree viewing angles) around the house but upon testing identification resolutions (pixels per face) using on cctv lens simulation software, I quickly realized that I won't get id on people more that 10 meters away. That's not going to cut it, as the primary threat here is a disturbed person carrying a grudge and a shotgun. So, I would need to get images that will enable id from 25-30 meters.

 

Help would be much appreciated

 

Best regards,

Bouci

[buellwinkle 0]

The Axis Q6035E I reviewed has the ability to track but frankly, didn't work all that well, at least to my expectations were it would follow someone automatically.

 

ACTi had an interesting method of accomplishing this with a 360 degree fisheye camera that would send commands to their PTZ camera to pan over to a location triggered by motion detection on the fisheye camera.

 

What I want is not a PTZ camera, but a zoom camera mounted in a PT housing with a laser beam on it and then run tracking software. The red dot would follow the suspect around. If that doesn't scare a trespasser into submission, nothing will.

[Bouci 0]

Thanks for the input. It's definitely unnerving that not even a high-end Axis cam can do the tracking properly. Perhaps my quest for a PTZ with automatic tracking is a dead end?

 

The ACTi solution sounds interesting. Which model was the fisheye cam? Does anyone have actual experience of the ACTi outdoor PTZs in extremely cold conditions? Here temps very often go below -20 C for extended periods and below -30 is not that uncommon. By the way, the domes I was initially considering were actually ACTi 5mp models.

 

I like your laser solution..perhaps an Aimpoint laser sight could be rigged into a PT housing

 

The Axis Q6035E I reviewed has the ability to track but frankly, didn't work all that well, at least to my expectations were it would follow someone automatically.

 

ACTi had an interesting method of accomplishing this with a 360 degree fisheye camera that would send commands to their PTZ camera to pan over to a location triggered by motion detection on the fisheye camera.

 

What I want is not a PTZ camera, but a zoom camera mounted in a PT housing with a laser beam on it and then run tracking software. The red dot would follow the suspect around. If that doesn't scare a trespasser into submission, nothing will.

[thewireguys 3]

I would recommend you stay away from auto tracking PTZ cameras unless you are in a controlled environmental where you have only ONE object to track.

 

Also Axis can to the same thing Acti does but you can do it with most Axis cameras and a Axis PTZ camera. The major problem with have a camera or cameras trigger the PTZ to move to presets is you basically lose PTZ controls because the commands with over ride your manual controls.

[buellwinkle 0]

It's their standard 4MP outdoor fisheye, KCM-7911 or you can use any ACTi camera with a wide lens, depending on your reach. What you do is setup a motion detect window and create an event that sends an URL to another camera to move it where you want. They demoed this at ISC a year ago and it was working surprisingly well inside the expo hall with thousands of people. I'm sure other brands, like Axis also do this too.

 

Their PTZ, KCM-8211, 1080P is brand new, so not sure many people have experience with it. The specs say -30C or -22F, your choice, up to 45C, 113F. At half the price of the Axis, it's something worth looking at. I wanted to get one, put it in our park and set a patrol of some hot spots where kids congregate to do a review and see if it's suitable for our security needs, but I don't even know it's available yet. Sometimes cameras on their website are available for ordering, doesn't mean you can really get one.

 

The cheaper choice is their KCM-5611, 18X zoom, 1080P, excellent low light sensitivity. Then find a cool PT external housing with illuminators and laser. There were a couple of booth at ISC last week that were selling such a device and the KCM-5611 has support for external PT.

[Bouci 0]

I would recommend you stay away from auto tracking PTZ cameras unless you are in a controlled environmental where you have only ONE object to track.

 

Also Axis can to the same thing Acti does but you can do it with most Axis cameras and a Axis PTZ camera. The major problem with have a camera or cameras trigger the PTZ to move to presets is you basically lose PTZ controls because the commands with over ride your manual controls.

 

There would likely be just one object to track at a time as this place is really in the backwoods, so that should be good.

 

I'd love an Axis setup, as we have very good experiences of an Q6035-E PTZ when used as a high-end scenic landscape camera. Had no problems last winter when it got down to -30 C. However, I don't think I can afford two Axis PTZs and a motion trigger cam (or two, as I suspect I'd need one on each side of the house). I am limited to a max budget of around 4000 euros, maybe 5000. Not sure what other gadgets would need to go into the system as well (being fairly new at this).

[Bouci 0]

Ok, I'll definitely look it up. Both the KCM-8211 and the KCM-5611 sound very good. Still keeping one eye open for Axis too, though. Stuff like Dahua I'll stay away from, based on what I read about them here, I have zero trust in the cameras in these sub-arctic conditions.

 

It's their standard 4MP outdoor fisheye, KCM-7911 or you can use any ACTi camera with a wide lens, depending on your reach. What you do is setup a motion detect window and create an event that sends an URL to another camera to move it where you want. They demoed this at ISC a year ago and it was working surprisingly well inside the expo hall with thousands of people. I'm sure other brands, like Axis also do this too.

 

Their PTZ, KCM-8211, 1080P is brand new, so not sure many people have experience with it. The specs say -30C or -22F, your choice, up to 45C, 113F. At half the price of the Axis, it's something worth looking at. I wanted to get one, put it in our park and set a patrol of some hot spots where kids congregate to do a review and see if it's suitable for our security needs, but I don't even know it's available yet. Sometimes cameras on their website are available for ordering, doesn't mean you can really get one.

 

The cheaper choice is their KCM-5611, 18X zoom, 1080P, excellent low light sensitivity. Then find a cool PT external housing with illuminators and laser. There were a couple of booth at ISC last week that were selling such a device and the KCM-5611 has support for external PT.

[thewireguys 3]

I would recommend you stay away from auto tracking PTZ cameras unless you are in a controlled environmental where you have only ONE object to track.

 

Also Axis can to the same thing Acti does but you can do it with most Axis cameras and a Axis PTZ camera. The major problem with have a camera or cameras trigger the PTZ to move to presets is you basically lose PTZ controls because the commands with over ride your manual controls.

 

There would likely be just one object to track at a time as this place is really in the backwoods, so that should be good.

 

I'd love an Axis setup, as we have very good experiences of an Q6035-E PTZ when used as a high-end scenic landscape camera. Had no problems last winter when it got down to -30 C. However, I don't think I can afford two Axis PTZs and a motion trigger cam (or two, as I suspect I'd need one on each side of the house). I am limited to a max budget of around 4000 euros, maybe 5000. Not sure what other gadgets would need to go into the system as well (being fairly new at this).

 

Keep in mind ANY movement will trigger the PTZ to move/track. Including trees, blowing leaves, shadows, cats, dogs, deer.........

[Bouci 0]

In the camera control software, aren't there zones that can blocked from motion detection? Obviously these would include tree tops above, say, two meters. Also, I've understood that motion detection sensitivity levels can be adjusted so that small moving objects won't trigger anything. Are these methods any good?

 

Another solution might be external, third party PIRs to do the motion detection instead of video based MD but I don't know which PIRs are good and would also communicate with a KCM-8211.

 

I would recommend you stay away from auto tracking PTZ cameras unless you are in a controlled environmental where you have only ONE object to track.

 

Also Axis can to the same thing Acti does but you can do it with most Axis cameras and a Axis PTZ camera. The major problem with have a camera or cameras trigger the PTZ to move to presets is you basically lose PTZ controls because the commands with over ride your manual controls.

 

There would likely be just one object to track at a time as this place is really in the backwoods, so that should be good.

 

I'd love an Axis setup, as we have very good experiences of an Q6035-E PTZ when used as a high-end scenic landscape camera. Had no problems last winter when it got down to -30 C. However, I don't think I can afford two Axis PTZs and a motion trigger cam (or two, as I suspect I'd need one on each side of the house). I am limited to a max budget of around 4000 euros, maybe 5000. Not sure what other gadgets would need to go into the system as well (being fairly new at this).

 

Keep in mind ANY movement will trigger the PTZ to move/track. Including trees, blowing leaves, shadows, cats, dogs, deer.........

[Kawboy12R 0]

Hate to steal thunder from thewireguys but trees are bad, regardless of detection zones. Some trees and most shrubs have branches all the way down to the ground and, even if they don't, even the higher-up branches will cast shadows on the ground that move in the wind. Simply excluding the leaves higher than 6' from motion detection isn't effective. The best security solution is to cut the trees down in a wide perimeter around the cameras for both reduced motion detection false positives and to remove hiding places. Obviously not a desirable option for many situations.

[tomcctv 190]

Chop trees just for auto PTZ.

 

PTZ tracking is nothing like PIR sensors.

 

 

 

Bouci. What software are you using to view your existing cameras.

 

Axis have add on auto PTZ tracking software. So do geovision and avermedia.

 

 

But yes sensors are best ......what size area will you be covering

[buellwinkle 0]

Keep in mind ANY movement will trigger the PTZ to move/track. Including trees, blowing leaves, shadows, cats, dogs, deer.........

 

Tell me about it. I turned it on the Q60 and out of all the traffic and people walking, the camera got fixed on a tree and it was in such a whir going all around that tree that the camera became unresponsive and couldn't move it away from that tree like it was obsessed. So if a $4,000 camera can't do what all of us expect it to do, then I don't hold much hope.

 

For what it's worth, BlueIris had a plugin written by someone else to do tracking called Autotracker for PTZ Cameras that worked with just about any PTZ camera. I don't know much more than that, so happy hunting.

[thewireguys 3]

In the camera control software, aren't there zones that can blocked from motion detection? Obviously these would include tree tops above, say, two meters. Also, I've understood that motion detection sensitivity levels can be adjusted so that small moving objects won't trigger anything. Are these methods any good?

 

Another solution might be external, third party PIRs to do the motion detection instead of video based MD but I don't know which PIRs are good and would also communicate with a KCM-8211.

 

Acti uses box based motion detection which sucks. They do have a day/night setting but it still sucks when you use it in anything but a controlled environment. Axis uses the same box based motion detection by default but you can load other motion detection or analytic Apps on some of there cameras.

 

Trees are bad and rain/snow/wind is even worse

[Bouci 0]

Alright, this is getting challenging How about using an external PIR for triggering cameras? Here is a link to a GJD product, the MX35, that seems suitable:

http://www.gjd.co.uk/products/wired-detectors/mx35/

 

GJD makes models that have both PIR and microwave detection as a double guard against false positives. I am now trying to find out which camera makes support GJD products.

 

By the way, pretty much the only quality outdoor cam to have built-in PIR-based motion detection that I found, is the Mobotix M12. Looks very good but the price is prohibitive in my case, because I would need so many of them to cover the premises to any degree.

[tomcctv 190]

Alright, this is getting challenging How about using an external PIR for triggering cameras? Here is a link to a GJD product, the MX35, that seems suitable:

http://www.gjd.co.uk/products/wired-detectors/mx35/

 

GJD makes models that have both PIR and microwave detection as a double guard against false positives. I am now trying to find out which camera makes support GJD products.

 

By the way, pretty much the only quality outdoor cam to have built-in PIR-based motion detection that I found, is the Mobotix M12. Looks very good but the price is prohibitive in my case, because I would need so many of them to cover the premises to any degree.

 

 

 

we use GJD a lot along with optex even the wireless from GJD are good ..... 2 years on one battery.

 

if your camera has a alarm input then both will work. also some dvr/nvr will take sensor inputs and direct existing PTZ to that alarm point

[shropna 0]

I would recomend this camera with video content analisys:

http://www.rivatech.de/images/pdf/RC4100-2212-36-EN-V1.02.pdf

The main difference - autaotracking will be activated on specific inteligent video motion detection violation parameters. Also, regarding VCA, will not be triggerd by moving trees, etc. Camera will not follow, as an example, moving vehicles, dogs, but will follow humans. Also, will track the same object in situations, when another moving objects will appears in camera field of view.

Sample videos:

[Bouci 0]

I would recomend this camera with video content analisys:

http://www.rivatech.de/images/pdf/RC4100-2212-36-EN-V1.02.pdf

The main difference - autaotracking will be activated on specific inteligent video motion detection violation parameters. Also, regarding VCA, will not be triggerd by moving trees, etc. Camera will not follow, as an example, moving vehicles, dogs, but will follow humans. Also, will track the same object in situations, when another moving objects will appears in camera field of view.

Sample videos:

 

Thanks. Looks like a real interesting option. Couldn't find a price for it though. I'll try to find a review for VCAfollowIP software.

[Bouci 0]

Chop trees just for auto PTZ.

 

PTZ tracking is nothing like PIR sensors.

 

 

 

Bouci. What software are you using to view your existing cameras.

 

Axis have add on auto PTZ tracking software. So do geovision and avermedia.

 

 

But yes sensors are best ......what size area will you be covering

 

I don't have any software yet, I'm in the planning phase Starting to look like that Rivatech PTZ plus several PIR sensors might be the way to go. Depending on the camera price, of course.

 

Regarding the area, I'll try to make a map/diagram for and post it here. I have an aerial image of the yard somewhere, so if I can find it, I'll use that as base.

[shropna 0]

I don't have any software yet, I'm in the planning phase Starting to look like that Rivatech PTZ plus several PIR sensors might be the way to go. Depending on the camera price, of course.

 

Regarding the area, I'll try to make a map/diagram for and post it here. I have an aerial image of the yard somewhere, so if I can find it, I'll use that as base.

I use Digifort software in combiation with Riva cameras. This software supports VCA metadata from Riva cameras.

Also, Exacq should support, but i'm doesnt test this combination.

[Bouci 0]

Thanks Shropna. By the way, the only price I was able to find for the Riva PTZ was well over 2000 euros which seems a bit high. Especially as it likely needs a Poe unit too.

[shropna 0]

Thanks Shropna. By the way, the only price I was able to find for the Riva PTZ was well over 2000 euros which seems a bit high. Especially as it likely needs a Poe unit too.

Where you are from?

[Bouci 0]

Thanks Shropna. By the way, the only price I was able to find for the Riva PTZ was well over 2000 euros which seems a bit high. Especially as it likely needs a Poe unit too.

Where you are from?

 

Finland.

 

Edit: I found better prices, in the 1700 euro neighborhood and even around 1500. Not completely sure whether that includes all the necessary software licenses both for in-camera shape recognition and for PTZ auto-tracking.

 

There is also another outdoor PTZ model the RC5510 which is very interesting and seems to go for 1100-1200 euros. Supports the same software but only has 10x zoom. The zoom might be enough for my purposes but I have to check. This one also has slightly slower pan and tilt speeds but I am not sure how significant that will be in real world situations. I will see if there are other differences.

[shropna 0]

For tracking vith VCA filter you will need this aditional license, because basic (included) autatracking license doesnt has objets filters:

VCAtrackIP-01 All 1ch RE and RC PTZ Products (exclude HD line) Comprehensive Perimeter Solution, PTZ Auto-tracking including VCA Surveillance Filters

Also, i'm ask RIVA about distributors in Finland, maybe, them send me information.

[Bouci 0]

For tracking vith VCA filter you will need this aditional license, because basic (included) autatracking license doesnt has objets filters:

VCAtrackIP-01 All 1ch RE and RC PTZ Products (exclude HD line) Comprehensive Perimeter Solution, PTZ Auto-tracking including VCA Surveillance Filters

Also, i'm ask RIVA about distributors in Finland, maybe, them send me information.

 

Thanks again for the info. By intensive googling, I was able to find prices for some of the other additional licences but not for VCAtrackIP.

[shropna 0]

Thanks again for the info. By intensive googling, I was able to find prices for some of the other additional licences but not for VCAtrackIP.

I thing, best way for you is contact vidicore ( http://www.vidicore.com/en/about-us/12-ueber-uns/1-achim-hauschke.html ), and ask them about distributors in Finland.