Is IP camera technology slowly progressing?

[bass1176 0]

Are you guys noticing the same thing Iam noticing? Manufacturers price gouging for 1mp cameras. I feel 1mp cameras shouldnt even be on the market with the arrival of 2mp and 3mp cams. And the 3mp cam shouldn't cost no where near where theyre going now. A 3mp personnel digital camera would cost no more then $40 bucks, and many wont even consider buying it as we reach 24mp DSLR cameras readily available in the market, a switch or a small router costs also in the same range. Combining the technology is extremely expensive and I feel manufacturers are taking advantage. Tired of seeing junk cameras that are less then 1mp for selling close to $200, Panasonic is one company, and I wont support it.

 

The technology isnt new and feel prices should ease up a bit but theyre not and thats pretty bad when its for good security.

 

I hope prices do come down and technology improves for IP cameras.

[GMaster1 0]

Agreed. I made a rant about Axis a couple of weeks ago, citing their $1,100 box cameras that are still 640x480 and lack H.264 support...

[bass1176 0]

I really think for now either we buy used goods or go with Costco, until a company decides to come out and start making these cams more affordable forcing the price gougers to lower their prices.

[bigglebowski 0]

[Razer_SE 0]

While I totally understand what you are saying as I'm a tech person, you are missing an important problem.

 

You notice that the super high megapixel phones do not always take great shots? I have a 16mp camera on my personal cell phone, look good to great during the day, but at night? Totally useless. Literally, I'd be better off sketching with a pencil and paper and I can't draw! My other work phone takes better photos at night by far, and it is 8mp.

 

It is not the actual number of pixels, it is the size that make more of a difference. I'm sure any number of camera makers could come out today with a 16mp camera for a low cost, camera sensors for phones have to be dirt cheap. But if it only works during the day, then what good does it do you?

 

Look at the ACTi 5211e camera, I have about 20 of those and it is 4mp camera. I use it as a LP camera, but it did not do well at all at night if the lighting was not absolutely great. Then there is the ACTi 5611 camera which is newer than the 5211e but only 2mp. I have 30 or so of those. The actual image sensor is larger on the 5611 than on the 5211 so though it is lower in megapixels it gives a tremendously better picture at night, many times not even going into night mode because it captures so much more light as the sensor is larger and captures more light. If they doubled the pixels the quality would actually drop.

 

http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18ljrfg8f8w0pjpg/original.jpg

 

Don't know if the image above will link or not, but it compares the new HTC One phone camera on the left to the new Galaxy S4 on the right. The one is lower mp, but I'm sure that is the image you would prefer.

 

Here is another one, phone cameras are labeled. The far right image is the best, and that is only an 8mp camera, the others are up to twice as high in pixels yet look worse. In perfect daylight the 8mp camera will actually beat the higher cameras still in many shots, it is the lens, and programming behind that will make the difference. In CCTV situations the below shot seems as if that is the lighting I have to work with every time there is an actual event I need to look at, all my issues/breakins are 2am at night or dusk with rough lighting.

 

http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18ljum1y7qzoujpg/xlarge.jpg

 

 

 

Now, I guess a camera vendor could make and sell a super high mp camera and market it as day only, but who is going to actually listen to that, and how useful will it really be in many cases?

 

I want more mp than anyone, but it truly is not that simple. And, seeing as camera sensor makers want to cram in more pixels as that is all people understand it must make sourcing a sensor with totally different requirements hard, and they are sure not buying in the bulk the phone vendors are! I do agree though that many cameras seem too high for what you get, but there are reasonable deals to be had also.

[vin2install 0]

And the 3mp cam shouldn't cost no where near where theyre going now. A 3mp personnel digital camera would cost no more then $40 bucks,

 

Does that 40.00 camera have built in analytics? Is it made to operate 24 hours a day? There is more to IP cameras than just the image sensor, that is why it cost more.

[GMaster1 0]

I can understand the argument that more megapixels does not mean better camera. Obviously more features and abilities make up the split (For example, I have a $6k DSLR that takes about the same quality photos as a $600 camera.)

 

I would argue, though, that the $600 camera should not be sold for $1,200 which is kind of like what I'm seeing with a number of manufacturers.

 

Gets to be point where companies like Swann/Dahua/QSee become favorable in the professional industry much like what happened to Cisco some years back... They thought they could charge crazy premiums and complicate the hell out of their IOS. Admins then decided that for half the price they could do more if they sacrificed just a small percentage of what they needed in a switch/router aaaand goodbye Cisco demand.

 

In the end I still think we're dealing with an industry that has serious growing pains. When almost 80% of the available companies/models to choose from STILL have gaping security holes and bugs in their firmware, you get the feeling that there just isn't enough R&D going into it.

[bass1176 0]

The prices cant be justified in my eyes, especially with bugs as mentioned above, using cheap sensors, cheap lenses and cheap routing. Much more sophisticated lens with much lower F Stops have been established for much cheaper then what these guys are offering for the cheaply made lenses theyre selling.

 

Were paying high premiums for garbage, I can see paying $1000 for a camera that has sophisticated lens architecture but thats not whats being offered.

 

These arent Japanese lenses theyre selling, they are cheap Chinese lenses that even when combining the technology shouldnt cost this much. I have no problems paying $400 for a camera but give me a clean Japanese lens with god F stops for low light and at the least 3mp, by all means we dont need 24mp.

 

This lens is much more complex in design then anything we've seen in an MP camera. Nothing about this technology should be costing what theyre charging and theyre taking advantage of the situation. The technology is already 10 years old and maybe when new it should be at these prices, but not now. Not when you can get a router for 10 bucks and a Japanese lens for $100, which is far from what theyre using.

And no one should be satisfied with an .8mp cheap camera for $400 bucks only to produce a horrific noisy picture. Indeed I will go with Swann and other commercial brands till the price settles.

 

I hope its a matter of time before a price drop. Would like to see 2-3mp with descent lens's for a fair price.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Canon-Telephoto-EF-85mm-f-1-8-USM-AF-Lens-Brand-New-USA-/190824401983?pt=Camera_Lenses&hash=item2c6e054c3f

[jsl10 0]

I don't think the analogy of a still shot camera and a IP camera holds. Even a 12MP camera that also does video does not do it at 12MP per frame. Most high MP cameras today might go as high as 1080p (i.e. about 2MP). Can you imagine trying to put together a BlueIris system to monitor a dozen 12MP IP cameras! But I do agree that the prices have been too high. They do seem to be coming down and I hope they continue to.

[Razer_SE 0]

I'd also note that I actually connected a flip camera - $120 for a decent 1080p flip camera. I connected it to stream directly to a TV full time and it lasted almost a year, the little flip out screen failed very early on and lost about 50 percent of the lines. Later the sensor started giving odd colors but it still worked. Then the sensor totally failed, though it was still powering up on the little bit of the flip out screen that was still functional. About a year total for $120, no night capability at all Used it as strictly a front counter monitoring device.

 

I can get a great image on a $300 IP camera now from Vivotek and ACTi that lasts for years. Not bad to my thinking. I have found many cameras to be totally worth the money, I spend $250 on the low end IP up to about $700 for my higher end cameras. Above that I've not seen enough difference to make it worth it for my uses but then again I do not use PTZ cameras or anything either. Reliability is key, I have over 650 cameras connected as of today to my Exacq system - I don't have time for cameras failing all that often, and it is sure going to happen with that many anyway. Might as well minimize it with quality equipment.

 

Obviously there is some real money to be made with these or there would not me so many competing at these high prices. Margins must be great lol!

[MaxIcon 0]

Since I can buy a nice Hyundai for under $20k, why should a BMW M5 cost $90k? What a rip-off!

[bass1176 0]

By all means these cheap IP cameras are not in the same league to be compared with German engineering, those are cheap IP cameras with Cheap chinese lenses are not BMW and is my point exactly, had they produced something worth the cash they are charging, it would be well worth it and you would have a point. Your buying junk at BMW prices and is exactly the point. And Korean made (where Hyundai is manufactured) cameras are considered a much better product then the Chinese, were not even getting Korean made. Never mind to be compared with what the Germans are making.

[bigglebowski 0]

By all means these cheap IP cameras are not in the same league to be compared with German engineering,

 

Mobotix?

 

those are cheap IP cameras with Cheap chinese lenses are not BMW and is my point exactly, had they produced something worth the cash they are charging, it would be well worth it and you would have a point. Your buying junk at BMW prices and is exactly the point. And Korean made (where Hyundai is manufactured) cameras are considered a much better product then the Chinese, were not even getting Korean made. Never mind to be compared with what the Germans are making.

 

I am confused, you mention cheap Chinese junk but praise the Costco cams?

[bass1176 0]

Dont be confused partner, Look its gonna get into a heated debate and this wasnt supposed to be me against you, Costco is selling Dahuas and other descent quality cams, so no need to bash why I chose them. I mention them because your getting the most out of your buck, when comparing to other high priced 1mp cams. Your satisfied paying BMW prices for garbage be my guest, Iam willing to pay premium prices for a quality product which is not what some of these cams are. Ip cams are over priced and they havent reduced and feel/hope its time for a change. You can go buy whatever you like as its a free market.

[vector18 1]

A few months ago my boss sent me to our distributor to get a megapixel IP camera for his mothers house which was under

renovation. He told me to call him when I get there. I called him while I was there and he told me to ask for the cheapest

megapixel indoor camera. The girl at the desk told me 380.00 is the cheapest one. I told my boss where I buy my cameras, they have much better prices but they sell chinese cameras. He asked me how much would one be so I made a quick call and

I told him a Dahua 1.3mp mini indoor dome would cost about 130 bucks. My boss says it better look good or else. Well, I installed it and gave him the log in to check it out, and he couldn't believe his eyes. He is an old school installer and really

hasn't been in the field for many years so what he is used to seeing is nowhere near an IP megapixel camera. But, bottom line is, that 130 dollar camera from china blew his socks off and saved him a bunch of money.

 

 

[bigglebowski 0]

Dont be confused partner, Look its gonna get into a heated debate and this wasnt supposed to be me against you, Costco is selling Dahuas and other descent quality cams, so no need to bash why I chose them. I mention them because your getting the most out of your buck, when comparing to other high priced 1mp cams. Your satisfied paying BMW prices for garbage be my guest, Iam willing to pay premium prices for a quality product which is not what some of these cams are. Ip cams are over priced and they havent reduced and feel/hope its time for a change. You can go buy whatever you like as its a free market.

 

Not trying to debate here, I don't really give a care either way here. I am more curious as to which cameras (that are more expensive) were junk that cost more than the Costco ones.

 

No offense intended.

[GMaster1 0]

(And funny you mention it -- BMW is actually a great example of an average company putting some badges on something and calling it great when in reality much better performance/quality comes from brands far less expensive today. Unless you buy an M3 or find an M5 for a significant discount, it's all name brand experience. Their XDrive system was even a complete disaster up until two years ago... took them that long to figure out AWD.)

 

(For you motorcycle enthusiasts, the same can be said about Harley Davidson. I used to do business with their engineering department in Milwaukee and was shocked to learn how intentional some of the rough edges and oil leaking is. "All part of the experience." they say..)

 

I kind of wish Canon put more energy into IP camera technology... They can develop a dual core system capable of both shooting and instantly buffering 18MP @ 12fps with ISO up to 52,000 for a duration of over 100 photos.. I feel like they could resource a few men to create a decent 1080p cam for a better price.

[dexterash 0]

I wouldn't compare portable/user-interactive/seldom used technology with 24/7 running technology.

 

Why? Let's see:

-if a router stops, you can reset it since, usually, it's in your house;

-if a DSLR will give an error writing on card, you would just see that imediatly and replace the card;

-if a portable camera will have any error, you will retry until correcting the error

 

What happens in (real) security vs personal/portable products:

-they are made to work 24/7

-they are made to "auto-work" - without any user prompt/interferance

-they will self-correct their errors/hardware errors and will alert/report; in fact, most errors are or solved or reported by the equipment

-they are designed to be scalable

-they are designed to serve more then one purpose or one user, at a time

-they are designed to work in hostile enviroments... how often would you expose your camera to rain or direct sunlight or...

 

L.E:

@GMaster: encoding is (at max) 30-50% of an IP camera's job, and, usually, it's done at a dedicated processor level

[bass1176 0]

That Dahau is a great example and proof it can be done at an affordable price, and my beef is with companies like Panasonic or others selling the same kind of cam from 300 to 1000. Even worse cams for more money, taking advantage of the average consumer. Iam all for that Dahua at that $130 price range and similar Costco cameras. And I seen much worse going for 3x the cost which I dont agree with and wont support.

[dexterash 0]

In a DAHUA based product you still have a question(usually).... With Panasonic (or others) you trust a product that's been used for years...

 

So what you want? An "old" laggy, approved technology or a young, "rebel" tech?

[thewireguys 3]

Dahua can sell their cameras at a low cost because they don't have a US sales team, rep firms and most importantly NO MANUFACTURER SUPPORT. Do I wish all cameras where $99 sure but that is not going to happen. I have a feeling the people complaining about prices have very little experience with IP camera solutionsdon't understand how expensive it is to build a quality camera with a good image that works 24/7 in any lighting condition and have manufactures support.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Guest

[PluffMud 0]

That Dahau is a great example and proof it can be done at an affordable price, and my beef is with companies like Panasonic or others selling the same kind of cam from 300 to 1000. Even worse cams for more money, taking advantage of the average consumer. Iam all for that Dahua at that $130 price range and similar Costco cameras. And I seen much worse going for 3x the cost which I dont agree with and wont support.

 

So are you saying that a $130 Dahau has no tradeoffs to account for the low cost compared to a more expensive ACTi or Axis camera of the same megapixel? This is more for my clarification b/c I think I'm not understanding what you're saying.

 

I'm a huge fan of cheap cameras but I have found there to be substantial increases in image quality (mostly night-time images), stability, and security with the more expensive cameras although there are certainly exceptions to the rule. To show what I mean compare sample images on buellwinkle's web site (don't know if I'm allowed to link to the review) from the 5MP ACTi E33 and 5MP Axis P3367, which btw costs almost 3x more than the ACTi E33.

 

I think what you are saying is is that Axis is gouging us b/c they charge 3x the cost of a similar ACTi E33 camera right? They are both 5MP and both seem to have good customer support and both have a reputation of being reliable cameras.

 

If you actually look at the night time boat images (look at the lettering on the hull of the boat for reference) and increase to actual size you WILL see a major difference. Is the image from the Axis P3367 worth paying almost 3x the cost of the ACTi E33? In other words, do you think Axis is ripping us off selling us 'similar' hardware at 3x the cost?

 

In my case it's worth it to me b/c in the event the footage is needed I'd rather pay the 3x to know I have better footage which may be the difference between usable footage and unusable footage. I'm not mad at Axis for 'overcharging' me b/c from what I can tell they aren't actually 'overcharging'. As a disclaimer I understand ACTi came out with a firmware patch for the E32 and E33 to reduce night time noise.

[bass1176 0]

 

Thats like me saying I have a sense your a IP camera salesman, its baseless. I have a sense when a piece of technology is overpriced, which you even agree you wish they would be cheaper.

 

And a 1mp camera in m opinion should not cost close to a grand on some models. The technology is old and I doubt any of them for example come with Japanese Lenses, not that the Chinese cant make quality lenses but if theyre charging premium fees I would also want a premium product. If your claiming Dahuas are cheaper because the lack of support and US based offices, then my money is going in the wrong place as I want it to go straight to the product.

 

As far as lighting conditions, it was already bought up that the 4mp ACTi camera which is pretty costly, sucked in low lighting, so someone pays $800 for a cam and thats still not enough to have a clean picture in low light? Thats the part I dont agree with, for an $800 camera I should have a serious piece of technology that shouldn't be hindered by low light. Would anyonne here want to pay $800 and still cant take images in poor lighting conditions? I doubt it, no matter what your sacrificing it for.

 

Ill wait around until they do become cheaper, produce good low light images, with a fairly smooth picture. Or for sure try one of the Dahuas which by the previous post produced a great pic for $130, whether or not its better at low light, well same goes for the $800 ACTi 4mp camera.

 

Were beating a dead horse, we all have our views, I think theyre over priced and were not getting exactly what were paying for not for all but some models. Pelco is selling to local municipals and maybe they dont need the small time consumer and is why they cant lower their prices for higher gains with Gov contracts.

You feel their pricing is justified and I disagree.

[bigglebowski 0]

Nobody wants to get ripped off when they make a purchase and certainly would rather pay less for any given item they buy. There is a lot to be said for one of your major reasons for purchasing a particular product is the brand name. A brand like Panasonic has proven itself in making great products as long as anybody on here has been alive. This can not be overlooked when comparing them or other reputable brands versus a Costco budget brand IP camera. Time will tell, I hope the Costco stuff turns out to be a great bargain. It will be interesting to see what the opinions of the users are after a few seasons of owning these systems. It is great to see Swann here providing support, much nicer to get support from the manufacturer rather than relying on the reseller.

[shockwave199 0]

Ill wait around until they do become cheaper, produce good low light images, with a fairly smooth picture. Or for sure try one of the Dahuas which by the previous post produced a great pic for $130, whether or not its better at low light, well same goes for the $800 ACTi 4mp camera.

In terms of low light, you're waiting around for something that will never happen. No camera, be it megapixel or analog, produces really useable images in low light. Those that do either fake it or depend on IR in the camera- neither option being preferable. Want a good, useable image from a camera in low light? Provide light so it isn't low light. Help a camera help you. You wanna debate brand quality, fine. But using 'low light' capability as any sort of measuring stick isn't realistic in the real dark world. If it could be done, we'd be pointing every camera we own and taking shots with limited light and not caring. It just doesn't work that way.