Help with new Service Station/Gas Station install

[iceman650 0]

Hi everyone, just signed up and happy to be a part of this forum now. I'm sure I can learn a lot here and hear different opinions from people all over. I own and operate a gas station/mini mart/mechanic shop in the Bay Area, CA. I have always been big on having a nice security system even though we're not very prone to burglary or theft considering we're on the corner of 2 main Blvd's. Also maybe the reason I haven't had many problems is that people have seen that I have cameras all over the place! We've upgraded so many times over the years, from B/W to color to PC DVR now using a standalone 16 channel Q-See DVR. I am looking to upgrade again and go HD. Even though it is a big hassle for me to run new wires all over my property, I'm up for the task if that's what it will take. I have 16 cameras hooked up now, all different, a few dome, many bullets, inside/outside. We'd obviously like to be able to see license plates but I know those cameras cost a bundle and I don't even want to go there, HD will have to do. Even 16 cameras is too little for my preference but I think the leap from 16 to 24 or 32 camera system is a bit too much so 16 will have to do. I am debating now and educating myself on the difference between NVR and HD-SDI. I like the idea of having one Cat5e cable running from the camera to the Recorder, no power supplies to deal. I am reading that bandwith might be an issue if I go IP? We don't have the greatest internet here, but it's not bad. Plenty for what we use it for in our daily work life but I don't want it to get overloaded and drag us down. We have AT&T Business U-verse and I get about 20-22 Mbps download but only between 2-3 Mbps upload. One important thing is that remote viewing on iPhone's and iPad's is a must. We have that capability right now using our current system and the Supercam HD app and it works great. I've purchased most of the stuff we have now from either Costco or Monoprice but I'm up for other suggestions. Thank you to everyone who chimes in and offers up any suggestions.

[SectorSecurity 0]

What is the distance on your longest run?

 

Also do you currently have RG59-18/2 run, RG6, CAT5e, or some other type of cable?

 

You could use a media converter if you want to run IP cameras down existing coax but this can be a costly option. You could try and use the existing cables to pull the new ones.

 

IP cameras will only cause external network traffic if you are remotely viewing them, but I do suggest you put your IP cameras on their own switch, this can help reduce the chatter on your regular network.

 

Do you have a budget in mind for this project?

[MR2 0]

Can I suggest a few points....

 

1, Run the ethernet cable back to a central secure point, run more cables than you actually need for each run, you will find that from point to point you can easily run 4 as you can 1.

2, Do not run anything less than IP camera's, it just does not make sense to fight with old Tech anymore.

3, stop stressing about licence plate camera's, they are nothing fancy, the only thing about them honestly is where they are aimed, plenty of $200 camera's these days have vari-focal lenses which you can zoom in on an area and grab that specific area.

4, don't go for anything less than 1080p/3pm camera's

5, go a PC for your DVR, it means you can upgrade it and repair it cheaply as required.

 

for the Camera's quite a few people on here like the Dahua. I personally like the IPQ2322x, do a google and you'll find them for $200, they even do night vision and have a nice image.

for the switch, you 100% want a PoE switch, you have two options, either a PoE or PoE+ I prefer PoE+ for future proofing (it allows the devices hanging off your switch to draw up to 25/30w) if you get a managed one (more expensive) it lets you log in and reset a camera without having to go and unplug the cable (so if you have a VPN from your home to your work, you can do this remotely)

for the software there are plenty of options, I've quite liked Milestone from the day I got it rolling, now we have 3 sites running it, there is a free version for up to 8 camera's however it's limited to no NAS access and only 5 days of footage (and a few other things)

[shockwave199 0]

If you're gonna go IP/MP, the 32 channel dahua with 8 poe or without any poe is the way to go if you want an NVR in line, imo. Without POE you're looking at 600 bucks and with poe, add another 150 or so. With a hard drive your topping out at around 1k. Completely reasonable considering you have tons of room for growth, taking into account what you said- preferring even more than 16 channels. If you place even a 2 mp camera wisely, you'll get plates. You may actually find you need LESS cameras for the same or more coverage with mega pixel cameras compared to analog. But at the moment if you prefer an NVR box and you want high channel count, the 32 channel looks to be worth considering.

 

http://www.dahuasecurity.com/products/nvr520852165232-p-300.html

[MR2 0]

yeah the Dahua gets a good rep

 

I could not do it though, too limited on the storage & expansion front

[iceman650 0]

So to answer a few of your guys' questions here goes:

 

My longest run is about 100 feet.

The current cabling that I have is either RG59, RG6 and some bundled 60ft/100ft cables that came with the cameras so whatever those are. I don't mind running new cables, we have nice conduits ran already and I wouldn't mind making them nicer. My current setup works perfectly but it looks like a disaster at the DVR box, I'm not using a power box and have like 12 power adaptors hooked up with all kinds of extra wire, it looks crazy!

My budget is flexible but I'd like to stay under $5,000.

I'd like to stay away from using a PC as the DVR but will do it if that's my best option for what I need.

I can stick with 16 channels, 32 channels is gonna get too crazy for my almost 1 acre property.

 

Even though I'm somewhat well versed in security cameras and technology in general, IP/networking is not of my strong points. I've head of PoE but have no idea what it is and what it does. Appreciate all the help guys!

[shockwave199 0]

The less you know about IP and networking, the more convenient POE is, which means power over ethernet. One network cable supplies power and picture. Gone would be your mess of wires and adapters. All the cables hook up to the NVR. Here's a vid to help explain.

 

UiE-iBwsCig

 

And here's one more vid to help you really gain an understanding on how it all gets setup with a spearate poe switch. You're gonna need to know how to do it. I hope I'm not causing a problem posting these vids. I do it only becuase they are so good for learning the basics and have found no others like them.

 

OniVaR0UBb8

[MR2 0]

well, here's my PC vs NVR argument

 

on a NVR, how do you backup your config?

how much of an operation is it to expand your NVR? say you want more CPU? more RAM?

if the NVR falls over how hard will it be to find identical hardware in 4-5 years?

what do you do if you want to upgrade past the two slots the motherboard has for disks? can it allow you to connect a NAS?

is the NVR anywhere near as fast or as good as something like Milestone for mobile device viewing & playback?

 

with a PC all of the above is very easy

[ak357 0]

So to answer a few of your guys' questions here goes:

 

My longest run is about 100 feet.

The current cabling that I have is either RG59, RG6 and some bundled 60ft/100ft cables that came with the cameras so whatever those are. I don't mind running new cables, we have nice conduits ran already and I wouldn't mind making them nicer. My current setup works perfectly but it looks like a disaster at the DVR box, I'm not using a power box and have like 12 power adaptors hooked up with all kinds of extra wire, it looks crazy!

My budget is flexible but I'd like to stay under $5,000.

I'd like to stay away from using a PC as the DVR but will do it if that's my best option for what I need.

I can stick with 16 channels, 32 channels is gonna get too crazy for my almost 1 acre property.

 

Even though I'm somewhat well versed in security cameras and technology in general, IP/networking is not of my strong points. I've head of PoE but have no idea what it is and what it does. Appreciate all the help guys!

I have done and still do lots of IP jobs

but lately I start to offer HD-SDI as retrofit and I love it

customer love it too

[MR2 0]

what exactly is HD-SDI?

[ak357 0]

what exactly is HD-SDI?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=what+exactly+is+HD-SDI

[buellwinkle 0]

If the wiring is already in, maybe SDI makes the most sense since it uses the same wiring, but you do lose some flexibility for example NVR choice, resolution (haven't seen 3 and 5 MP SDI yet).

 

Here's what I would do. Hire an electrician to pull all new Ethernet cable, not a big job as they can use the existing siamese coax cable to pull the Ethernet cable through. I know my electrician can bang that out in a day, a couple of hundred at most. Also, with 2 & 3MP cameras, it could be you don't need as many.

 

The best value out there now is the Hikvision IR domes and bullets, let me know if you need help finding them but for $169 they represent a good value, 3MP (or 1080P) resolution, good IR illuminators, good WDR capability and probably the smallest IR bullet and dome I've used.

 

To record, depends on what you like. On the lower end, I've had a good experience with BlueIris, $50 per PC, runs on Windows, but requires a good PC for 16 camera, like an i7 so that drives cost up and higher power consumption. Also you want a PC with several drive bays as 1080P or higher uses a good amount of disk space. Don't know how PGE is charging you, but SDG&E is killing us here so power consumption is a factor for me. I've been moving cameras now from BlueIris to Synology NAS. Synology is part a class of NAS called Smart Nas and they have software on them called Surveillance Stations, $50/camera, first one free. Has some higher end features than BlueIris like synchronized playback, it's easy to use and the NAS devices have lower power consumption and you can use the NAS for other things like PC backups and such for your business. Also, I run Synology on an HP Proliant Microserver, why because it's faster and cheaper (you can find it for under $300 with 4 drive bays).

 

You can also get a Hikvision NVR, a 16 channel, the easiest way to go with Hikvision cameras but it's like your DVR, you do give up flexibility of a software solution.

 

If you want to go higher end than Hikvision, I personally use ACTi, their indoor domes would cost a small premium over Hikvision and their outdoor bullet or dome will cost about double but you'll get a much higher level of customer service and support. They provide their NVR3 software for free for 16 cameras which is very good and can run on a pretty small PC as the cameras do most of the work of motion detection and recording.

 

If you want to go higher end again, Axis makes very nice domes, the P33 series or their lower end M30 series domes, again the price is higher over the ACTi, but you do get a better product. I use Axis now and then. For up to 16 cameras you can use their free ACC software which records from the camera to a NAS or local SD storage and you can view them from any Windows PC. It's free, but frankly, a good NVR solution would suit you better.

 

If you want to go even higher, Mobotix makes very nice domes, now the D15, price again goes up from Axis, but this is what we use mostly, just a dead on reliable solid camera with great image quality. Mobotix has a decentralized approach, they can write to NAS and play back from the camera or via their free MXControlStation software for multi-camera viewing and playback. Because it's decentralized, there's less network concerns.

 

The next worry is network, 16 cameras requires some consideration in switch selection and network configuration, something you didn't have to worry about with analog. Putting 16 cameras on one switch is possible but not recommended as most network cameras use 100Mbps and you'll easily exceed that with 16 cameras.

[SectorSecurity 0]

If you are going to put a large number of cameras on a single switch you want to make sure at least one port is a gigabit ethernet port, or it has the ability to take fiber, but now you are talking more advanced networking.

 

And remember if you buy the NVR with POE built in you can not run it through a switch as you will lose the POE.

 

As for the 60FT and 100FT cables you are using that came with the camera, if you only change some wiring, please make this the wiring you change, these cables have almost no shielding to them.

 

I have never understood why people hire an electrician to pull low voltage wiring, my company does it and we do it at half the price of an electrician, don't need a master electrician to pull wiring.

[MR2 0]

If the wiring is already in, maybe SDI makes the most sense since it uses the same wiring, but you do lose some flexibility for example NVR choice, resolution (haven't seen 3 and 5 MP SDI yet).

 

Here's what I would do. Hire an electrician to pull all new Ethernet cable, not a big job as they can use the existing siamese coax cable to pull the Ethernet cable through. I know my electrician can bang that out in a day, a couple of hundred at most. Also, with 2 & 3MP cameras, it could be you don't need as many.

 

The best value out there now is the Hikvision IR domes and bullets, let me know if you need help finding them but for $169 they represent a good value, 3MP (or 1080P) resolution, good IR illuminators, good WDR capability and probably the smallest IR bullet and dome I've used.

 

To record, depends on what you like. On the lower end, I've had a good experience with BlueIris, $50 per PC, runs on Windows, but requires a good PC for 16 camera, like an i7 so that drives cost up and higher power consumption. Also you want a PC with several drive bays as 1080P or higher uses a good amount of disk space. Don't know how PGE is charging you, but SDG&E is killing us here so power consumption is a factor for me. I've been moving cameras now from BlueIris to Synology NAS. Synology is part a class of NAS called Smart Nas and they have software on them called Surveillance Stations, $50/camera, first one free. Has some higher end features than BlueIris like synchronized playback, it's easy to use and the NAS devices have lower power consumption and you can use the NAS for other things like PC backups and such for your business. Also, I run Synology on an HP Proliant Microserver, why because it's faster and cheaper (you can find it for under $300 with 4 drive bays).

 

You can also get a Hikvision NVR, a 16 channel, the easiest way to go with Hikvision cameras but it's like your DVR, you do give up flexibility of a software solution.

 

If you want to go higher end than Hikvision, I personally use ACTi, their indoor domes would cost a small premium over Hikvision and their outdoor bullet or dome will cost about double but you'll get a much higher level of customer service and support. They provide their NVR3 software for free for 16 cameras which is very good and can run on a pretty small PC as the cameras do most of the work of motion detection and recording.

 

If you want to go higher end again, Axis makes very nice domes, the P33 series or their lower end M30 series domes, again the price is higher over the ACTi, but you do get a better product. I use Axis now and then. For up to 16 cameras you can use their free ACC software which records from the camera to a NAS or local SD storage and you can view them from any Windows PC. It's free, but frankly, a good NVR solution would suit you better.

 

If you want to go even higher, Mobotix makes very nice domes, now the D15, price again goes up from Axis, but this is what we use mostly, just a dead on reliable solid camera with great image quality. Mobotix has a decentralized approach, they can write to NAS and play back from the camera or via their free MXControlStation software for multi-camera viewing and playback. Because it's decentralized, there's less network concerns.

 

The next worry is network, 16 cameras requires some consideration in switch selection and network configuration, something you didn't have to worry about with analog. Putting 16 cameras on one switch is possible but not recommended as most network cameras use 100Mbps and you'll easily exceed that with 16 cameras.

 

Bloody well written, where are you guys buying the Hikvision stuff from?

[MR2 0]

what exactly is HD-SDI?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=what+exactly+is+HD-SDI

 

 

erk! sounds like a band aid approach looking at what google comes up with, I'd throw cat6a (now very close to cat 5e pricing) and be happy that you're fine for the next 10 years, I also hate BNC connections with a passion, so unreliable and touchy on every site I've ever seen it

[buellwinkle 0]

Bloody well written, where are you guys buying the Hikvision stuff from?

 

We get them from www.wrightwoodsurveillance.com out of Chicago, $169 for the 3MP bullet, free shipping.

[MR2 0]

Nice, I might grab a few and see if I can get them sent over in the next batch we have coming from the states (of other goods) Cheers for the heads up

[iceman650 0]

Basically what I'm reading and understanding here is that HD-SDI would be a lot easier to handle and to manage, but IP is much better. Like I had mentioned before, running new wires is not a problem, actually pretty easy for me. Our building is four concrete walls, not much to it, no insulation and no interior walls we need to run through. I was really hoping to move away from PC management and do it off an NVR but I do see all the benefits of the PC DVR and I'm considering it. Cameras are secondary right now to me figuring out whether I want to go IP or HD-SDI, that's the first decision.

[ak357 0]

Basically what I'm reading and understanding here is that HD-SDI would be a lot easier to handle and to manage, but IP is much better. Like I had mentioned before, running new wires is not a problem, actually pretty easy for me. Our building is four concrete walls, not much to it, no insulation and no interior walls we need to run through. I was really hoping to move away from PC management and do it off an NVR but I do see all the benefits of the PC DVR and I'm considering it. Cameras are secondary right now to me figuring out whether I want to go IP or HD-SDI, that's the first decision.

Yep HD-SDI is quick and easy

here is example

customer used old coax

to install HD-SDI

Whole retrofit job was done in few hours

[icamera 0]

Can you show full size pictures?

 

Thank you.

 

Basically what I'm reading and understanding here is that HD-SDI would be a lot easier to handle and to manage, but IP is much better. Like I had mentioned before, running new wires is not a problem, actually pretty easy for me. Our building is four concrete walls, not much to it, no insulation and no interior walls we need to run through. I was really hoping to move away from PC management and do it off an NVR but I do see all the benefits of the PC DVR and I'm considering it. Cameras are secondary right now to me figuring out whether I want to go IP or HD-SDI, that's the first decision.

Yep HD-SDI is quick and easy

here is example

customer used old coax

to install HD-SDI

Whole retrofit job was done in few hours

[ak357 0]

Can you show full size pictures?

 

Thank you.

Almost full size

[icamera 0]

Would you share who is the manufacturer of this camera?

 

Thanks.

 

Can you show full size pictures?

 

Thank you.

Almost full size

[MR2 0]

Can you send power down HD-SDI? (for PoE implementations?)

can you break out a HD-SDI link into a switch and then run another x amount of cam's off that switch?

 

sorry I can't stand coax

[icamera 0]

Why? Do you prefer Cat5 / Cat6? Why, can you explain?

 

Can you send power down HD-SDI? (for PoE implementations?)

can you break out a HD-SDI link into a switch and then run another x amount of cam's off that switch?

 

sorry I can't stand coax

[thewireguys 3]

Can you send power down HD-SDI? (for PoE implementations?)

can you break out a HD-SDI link into a switch and then run another x amount of cam's off that switch?

 

sorry I can't stand coax

 

can you send uncompressed video with IP

 

Of the HD-SDI cameras I have use they have some of the best images and low light night time performance I have seen from any camera. I am not a fan of coax either but I can live with that what I can't live with is the GUI and usability of the DVRs.

 

Why a manufacture doesn't come out with a low cost 4 channel HD-SDI encoder that we can use with VMS platforms is beyond me.