Suggestions for low-light, high(er) resolution?

[indep1 0]

Hey guys,

 

I know this is my first post but I've been an avid reader of this forum for a few years and I've done my fair share of research just by using the search function.

 

I'm currently working with a client who I've previously (about 10 years ago) sold an analog system to. We're going with Avigilon's Standard VMS solution with encoders for his low-priority areas. He would like 4 high resolution IP cameras overlooking his bartenders at 4 different "pouring stations." Or, one camera per station. The cameras will be about 12ft from the each station. The problem is that these areas are very dimly lit and he'd like to digitally zoom to see exactly what the bartenders are pouring. Here's what I've been thinking:

 

1) Axis P3367-V - I absolutely love the videos I've seen of this camera performing in low-light situations. Plus, I love the fact that it's able to use the available light and doesn't rely on IR. However, I've only seen outdoor images and never anything I can relate to my current situation.

 

2) ACTi D55 - I know this camera is nowhere near the P3367 but I was thinking it could be a "low-cost" solution. He doesn't need vari-focal, just digital zoom. Plus, if neither camera can 100% satisfy his need, it's much more justifiable for him to spend ~$300 than ~$1200.

 

So, my question is if you guys think I'm going in the right direction? Is the Axis the only camera that will satisfy him or will no ip camera under $2000 provide enough low-light performance to solve our dilemma?

[ak357 0]

Hey guys,

 

I know this is my first post but I've been an avid reader of this forum for a few years and I've done my fair share of research just by using the search function.

 

I'm currently working with a client who I've previously (about 10 years ago) sold an analog system to. We're going with Avigilon's Standard VMS solution with encoders for his low-priority areas. He would like 4 high resolution IP cameras overlooking his bartenders at 4 different "pouring stations." Or, one camera per station. The cameras will be about 12ft from the each station. The problem is that these areas are very dimly lit and he'd like to digitally zoom to see exactly what the bartenders are pouring.

 

So, my question is if you guys think I'm going in the right direction? Is the Axis the only camera that will satisfy him or will no ip camera under $2000 provide enough low-light performance to solve our dilemma?

Have u check Avigilon new Light catcher cameras ?

[indep1 0]

Yes, and I'm impressed with the color reproduction but it's only 1.3 mp and all the demos I've seen have been pretty grainy. I'm afraid that the image will pixilate too much when digitally zoomed-in and the client won't be able to see what type of bottle the bartender is pouring. I could be wrong though, I wish their demos gave exact info as to how high the camera is located and how much it was zoomed-in, etc.

[thewireguys 3]

If your looking for low light you don't want 5MP cameras.

 

FYI all low light cameras Bosch, Axis, Avigilon and Sony in the 1MP range.

 

Which demo have you seen from the Avigilon LightCatcher?

 

Have have Axis's Q1604 camera which is there best low light MP camera and Avigilon's LightCatcher camera is right there with it performance wise.

[luckyfella 0]

I don't have experience in this, but from what I have been told, the higher resolution cameras need more lighting over the lesser higher resolution.

[StanLee2066 0]

1) Axis P3367-V - I absolutely love the videos I've seen of this camera performing in low-light situations. Plus, I love the fact that it's able to use the available light and doesn't rely on IR. However, I've only seen outdoor images and never anything I can relate to my current situation.

 

Believe me, you would be just as impressed with indoor performance. I've got a pp3364 that was installed in my family room/kitchen for a few weeks. With only a 40w incandescing bulb lit up, the whole area was very well captured with no noise that I could see on my 24" monitor. Only when I increased the gain to 'unnatural' levels did noise begin to appear ... but then it lit up areas that were dark and not even visible to my own eyes sitting in the room! Their combination of lens design together with the 'Lightfinder' system makes for some excellent use of technology that in my opinion is well worth the extra cost. From what I've read, the p3367 even with it's higher pixels is equally impressive. I believe it uses a larger sensor to compensate.

[thewireguys 3]

1) Axis P3367-V - I absolutely love the videos I've seen of this camera performing in low-light situations. Plus, I love the fact that it's able to use the available light and doesn't rely on IR. However, I've only seen outdoor images and never anything I can relate to my current situation.

 

Believe me, you would be just as impressed with indoor performance. I've got a pp3364 that was installed in my family room/kitchen for a few weeks. With only a 40w incandescing bulb lit up, the whole area was very well captured with no noise that I could see on my 24" monitor. Only when I increased the gain to 'unnatural' levels did noise begin to appear ... but then it lit up areas that were dark and not even visible to my own eyes sitting in the room! Their combination of lens design together with the 'Lightfinder' system makes for some excellent use of technology that in my opinion is well worth the extra cost. From what I've read, the p3367 even with it's higher pixels is equally impressive. I believe it uses a larger sensor to compensate.

 

What was your lux level?

[indep1 0]

If your looking for low light you don't want 5MP cameras.

 

FYI all low light cameras Bosch, Axis, Avigilon and Sony in the 1MP range.

 

Which demo have you seen from the Avigilon LightCatcher?

 

Have have Axis's Q1604 camera which is there best low light MP camera and Avigilon's LightCatcher camera is right there with it performance wise.

 

 

I understand that from a physical standpoint, 5MP cameras are not nearly as sensitive in low-light situations. I was just hoping (praying) to find something that satisfied his obsession with "I want 3-5 MP." Some people just have a hard time realizing that daytime images are going to be vastly different from night.

 

And I forgot which demo it was. It might have been at ISC West or something that someone sent me. Either way, I remember that I liked what I saw from Axis better. I'm definitely open to Avigilon if someone can send me a better demo.

 

I haven't taken a look at the Q1604 but he wants a dome anyways so that's, unfortunately, out of the question.

 

Another note: Do any of your guys know how much more bandwidth Axis' Lightfinder technology requires? For instance, would the P3364-LV (Lightfinder and IR) use less bandwidth than the P3354 (no IR)?

[StanLee2066 0]

What was your lux level?

 

Unfortunately I don't have the tools to measure. The room is 364sqf - and I must apologize it is actually a 60w bulb. What impressed me was how the scene lighting on the screen was exactly as I saw in the room. Noise only would begin to appear as I increased the lighting (as seen on my screen) to levels that were higher than actually in the room. Even then, the noise levels were quite acceptable to me and not as horrific like I've seen on some other cams.

[thewireguys 3]

If your looking for low light you don't want 5MP cameras.

 

FYI all low light cameras Bosch, Axis, Avigilon and Sony in the 1MP range.

 

Which demo have you seen from the Avigilon LightCatcher?

 

Have have Axis's Q1604 camera which is there best low light MP camera and Avigilon's LightCatcher camera is right there with it performance wise.

 

 

I understand that from a physical standpoint, 5MP cameras are not nearly as sensitive in low-light situations. I was just hoping (praying) to find something that satisfied his obsession with "I want 3-5 MP." Some people just have a hard time realizing that daytime images are going to be vastly different from night.

 

And I forgot which demo it was. It might have been at ISC West or something that someone sent me. Either way, I remember that I liked what I saw from Axis better. I'm definitely open to Avigilon if someone can send me a better demo.

 

I haven't taken a look at the Q1604 but he wants a dome anyways so that's, unfortunately, out of the question.

 

Another note: Do any of your guys know how much more bandwidth Axis' Lightfinder technology requires? For instance, would the P3364-LV (Lightfinder and IR) use less bandwidth than the P3354 (no IR)?

 

I was just curious becuase the LightCatcher cameras where released about a month again so you might have seen a demo on the H3 cameras not the new LightCatchers

[buellwinkle 0]

I would say the best 5MP camera I tested in low light is the P3367-VE. But there's plenty of indoor domes with IE LED's for lighting, like the D55 you mentioned, good value. I'm very happy with my indoor ACTi domes even though they are a few years old, they still have a good image at night.

[cliff369 0]

Check out this video i just found on youtube for the Avigilon Lightcatcher vs. Axis Lightfinder.

Some overseas demo but it shows a pretty clear difference..

 

[buellwinkle 0]

Check out the ACTi E96, 5MP Fisheye, $260, works pretty well in low light. PM me and I can get some sample pics.

[thewireguys 3]

Check out the ACTi E96, 5MP Fisheye, $260, works pretty well in low light. PM me and I can get some sample pics.

 

Fisheye camera that works well in low light?? Please post images as this is very hard to believe.

[buellwinkle 0]

How low is low? In a poorly lit apartment, it does pretty well, clear, sharp but can't post someone's living room. Since every situation is different, it's hard to say how it will work, but we can try to simulate it if we can. For example, would one 60W bulb in a room do it, would a 30W bulb do it?

 

I don't have a good test platform for an indoor fisheye. I'd have to find a local business willing to experiment. Any in Chitown or the O.C. willing to try, would be happy to do it.

[MaxIcon 0]

Also, fisheye loses a lot of resolution as you go away from the center. If the customer only cares about the center of the field, that's ok, but your pixels per foot will drop way down as you get to the edges.

 

Using a fisheye correcting lens like the Theia helps this, but software corrected fisheye suffers from this problem.

[myiicu 0]

Axis just announced their new Q1614 lightfinder 720P camera with 50/60fps frame rate.

Should improve low light motion blur problems.

http://www.axis.com/corporate/press/releases/viewstory.php?case_id=3163

[MaxIcon 0]

I have no experience with Lightfinder, but it looks like those are 2 different solutions for 2 different issues - high frame rate capture and low light - but not both at the same time.

 

Their docs on Lightfinder don't mention exposure times or frame rates, at least as far as I've seen. If someone knows more about Lightfinder, maybe they could illuminate us.

 

If it can do good quality low-light color capture at even 15 fps, that would be well worth the $1000-ish price.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Guest

[thewireguys 3]

I have both the Q1604 and Avigilon LightCatcher cameras both run very low light color images at 1/30 exposure at 30FPS

[Kawboy12R 0]

Are they limited to 1/30 or can they go faster?

[thewireguys 3]

Avigilon LightCatcher cameras have a maximum exposure range of 1/8 to 1/8000

 

Axis Q1604 has a range of 2s to 1/29500 with WDR off.

 

When WDR is off this is when the camera is best in low light.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Guest

[ak357 0]

Are they limited to 1/30 or can they go faster?

Have a look

[Kawboy12R 0]

I wish my P3364 had a faster shutter option for low light. The fastest it can be set for is 1/30th. That's a pretty standard minimum speed for low light but it does well enough that I bet it'd be just fine at 1/60th in my conditions and have reduced motion blur at the same time.

[StanLee2066 0]

I wish my P3364 had a faster shutter option for low light. The fastest it can be set for is 1/30th. That's a pretty standard minimum speed for low light but it does well enough that I bet it'd be just fine at 1/60th in my conditions and have reduced motion blur at the same time.

 

In the shutter drop down window, if you select 'fixed' rather than 'auto' you can select any shutter speed you like and go higher than 1/30th. But it will be for all lighting conditions . That being said even my older m1114 was able to go higher than 1/30th in 'auto' just for low light conditions. The low light performance was so good I had it set to 1/60 with no problems. The p3364 is even better in low light and so it's puzzling why they would remove this option.

[skomo 0]

ive recently received a demo lightcatcher dome and am very impressed.

 

if you want i might be able to post a pic taken from my iphone of my dining room and then a pic of what the light catcher sees so you can compare...