Best/Good Camera for Closeup Monitoring

[JasonThick 0]

I'm in France

[MaxIcon 0]

One potential issue when focusing very closely is that M12 lenses focus by screwing in and out of the lens adapter. If focusing at a short distance requires screwing the lens further in, you might hit the IR filter assembly before it's focused, even if it's OK at longer distances. There's no easy way to tell this without trying, and it would vary from lens to lens.

 

This is where a box cam with a CS mount lens would be better. CS lenses focus by moving the lens elements internally, so there are no IR filter interference problems, but they do cost more.

 

I'm assuming that 850nm is the peak wavelength of many of the IR LEDs, but I'm not sure what the high and low cut off wavelengths for these LEDs are.

 

Here's a typical set of spectra for IR LEDs. Not very large, but it gives a pretty good idea of the cutoffs. Google images for IR LED spectrum for more examples:

 

[JasonThick 0]

I'm not opposed to a box camera. I see ACTi has a box camera with similar specs to the D54 dome.

D21F

http://www.acti.com/product/detail/Box_Camera/D21F

 

The D21F is listed for almost the exact same price. The only downside is that it doesn't include IR lights, so I'll have to buy a separate source. If I'm going with this style I have many options for lenses.

 

Would a 50mm lens like this be ok:

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/724607837/F02211_CS_Mount_50mm_F1_6.html

 

or should I go with something smaller or bigger?

 

MaxIcon, thanks for the graph. Theoretically the mice shouldn't be able to detect the light emitted by the 850nm IR. But I don't even have to worry about it if I go with the box camera, since I can mount separate light source over their heads and out of their view.

[buellwinkle 0]

Yes, a box camera makes most sense for your needs, wasn't even thinking about it but we just put one in recently. Get the one with a fixed lens because it's cheaper, throw the lens away and get a good CS mount varifocal lens. We use a Fujinon 5-50mm lens, that's like a 10x zoom, so you can zoom in on the quarter or mouse to fill the frame with the subject. Those lenses are not terribly expensive, maybe $100 give or take. Also, a CS lens is larger, allowing for more light to come in, allowing for better low light performance.

 

I would not cheap out on glass as it's more important than the electronics in getting good image quality.

[JasonThick 0]

Thanks for the recommendation on the lens. I am going to have to skimp a little a bit though, since I still have to budge out 4 IR light sources. Can you think of any descent 50mm CS lens that are more in the $25-50 range?

[myiicu 0]

To capture the detail you require, a true macro lens is recommended. I use the Computar MLH-10X with any fixed box cam lying around on a daily basis to help remove splinters from my hands. It's manual with no IR but great image!

 

http://computarganz.com/product_view.cfm?product_id=601

[JasonThick 0]

Thanks Myiicum but that lens looks like it's around $300. I understand that generally when I spend more money I get better results, but I'm on a budget.

 

I'm trying figure out what is the best varivocal lens (in the 50mm area) that I can buy for $25-50.

[buellwinkle 0]

Thanks for the recommendation on the lens. I am going to have to skimp a little a bit though, since I still have to budge out 4 IR light sources. Can you think of any descent 50mm CS lens that are more in the $25-50 range?

 

Interesting choice of words, so you want to "descent" down to cheap glass. Don't blame you as you have no basis of comparison. Like me, who bought a cheap 300mm lens from Nikon for my DSLR camera, was like $99 and was thoroughly disappointed and a friend got a 300mm lens from Nikon that runs $5,000, he's happy.

 

There's plenty of lenses on eBay and Amazon for cheap, maybe even $5 but if it were my money, I would get a used good lens, here's one $20 -

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FUJINON-YV10X5A-SA2-8-5-50MM-1-3-CS-LENS-XLNT-/121224149192?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c3985b8c8

[MaxIcon 0]

That's what I would do (and have done) as well. You can get great deals on ebay on decent quality used CS or C mount lenses.

 

Aside from Fujinon, seach on Computar and CBC (same brand) as well.

 

Note that most of these aren't going to be MP lenses, but that's probably not an issue. Likewise, many aren't IR corrected, so if you focus them for IR, they'll be out of focus for white light, and vice versa.

 

Finally, there are auto-iris and manual iris lenses. The one BW linked to is auto-iris, and the camera needs to support auto-iris to use this (most box cams do). You can remove the auto-iris assembly on some lenses, but this is unpredictable until you get it.

[JasonThick 0]

Yea, descent might not be the ideal term, what I am looking for is the best that I can do for $25-50. I understand what you mean by going for quality. I'm buying this camera and lens for work though, and not with my personal money. I don't have that much flexibility with what my boss will allow me to spend. If I can't find something that will do the job, my boss isn't going to care. He's fine having me keep checking in on the mouse by standing over it. I suggested the camera, and he said it would be ok if I can do it for 'cheap'.

 

I am buying the ACTi D21 locally, so I can return it if I need to. But I'm not going to find a lens locally that is in my target price range, so I'm a little more worried about that.

 

I hadn't thought of checking ebay, I'll take some time to search through there. I do need 4 of what ever lens I get, making things a little harder.

 

What does it mean for a lens to be MP? Does this just mean the build quality is better, so that it can support megapixel resolution?

 

Also I prefer to use a manual lens that I can just focus once. I'm doing sensitive electrical recordings, and I'm already a little worried that the camera is going to generate electrical noise. I don't want to increase that chance by having a powered lens.

[JasonThick 0]

I found this Fujinon 7-70mm lens on Ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Fujinon-1-2-7mm-70mm-Varifocal-Lens-F1-8-CS-DC-Iris-DV10x7B-SA2L-/281205675691?pt=BI_Security_Fire_Protection&hash=item41792a16ab

 

I don't see any mention of IR correction, but it is listed for Day/Night use on Fujinon's website. Does that mean it is IR corrected?

 

This lens does have an automatic iris. If I don't plug it in, can I control it manually?

[rtpg 0]

What does it mean for a lens to be MP? Does this just mean the build quality is better, so that it can support megapixel resolution?

 

More or less. Lenses have an optical resolution of sorts, basically how much detail they can differentiate/show before lens irregularities, diffraction, basically 'lens quality' in short, start to blur details. Of course, this is only part of the equation - if your sensor or recording system isn't above your lens' capabilities, then it's irrelevant. There are camera lenses out there using plastics for one or more elements; I wouldn't worry all that much on this one, IMO, but I don't have experience when it comes to IP camera lenses - I suppose it's possible they could make a lens worse than a disposable camera, but it would be surprising.

[tomcctv 190]

It goes from dome camera to box with 50mm lens

 

The target from camera to object is only 12inches Any lens will to

 

 

Take a look at your pm

[buellwinkle 0]

More importantly than getting an lens rated for MP, get one that's rated for the sensor size or larger, meaning 1/3" or 1/2" sensor. If it's made for a 1/4" sensor you may get vignetting.

[MaxIcon 0]

I'm not sure I've ever seen a CS mount lens for a 1/4" sensor, but there must be some out there. More likely, you'll find mostly 1/3, some 1/2", with the occasional 2/3". You definitely don't want one designed for a smaller sensor, as BW says.

 

If the lens is designed for a larger sensor than what you have (most box cameras today are 1/3", with some 1/2" available for more money), it'll have the effect of having a longer focal length and a smaller aperture. That is, a 50mm 1/2" lens on a 1/3" sensor will act more like a 70mm lens, and an F1.6 will be more like an F2.0. Actual results may vary!

 

You can't control the iris manually, at least not easily. Auto-iris can be difficult to disable, depending on the lens design, and most auto-irises close when there's no power applied. Some you can remove the iris assembly with no problem, others need to be glued into the open position, and that can be either easy or hard.

 

If the camera supports auto-iris, you can sometimes set the iris manually and just leave it, which will prevent any noise (electrical or audible) from adjustments, but that depends on the camera software.

 

MP ratings are due to both lens element material quality, as mentioned, and coatings that control where the wavelengths focus, similar to the IR corrected lenses, but applying to all the different visible wavelengths. If red, blue, and green focus on different adjacent pixels or different planes, you get a fuzzier picture than if they all focus on the same pixel.

 

I don't see any reference to day/night in the brochure or on the web page:

http://www.fujifilm.com/products/optical_devices/pdf/cctv/security/varifocal/dv10x7b-sa2_e.pdf

http://www.fujifilmusa.com/products/optical_devices/security/vari-focal/standard-series/dv10x7b-sa2l/

 

It looks like a good lens for the money, but it's always a gamble whether it will work for your app without trying it.

 

You can find manual lenses, some new, some used, by searching ebay for 50mm lens cs, and other variations. The new ones under $50 will be suspect quality, but may work for your needs, while the used or NOS name brand lenses will be better quality, but limited quantity.

 

Tamron and Rainbow are decent quality brands, too, though Rainbow is getting a little iffy.

[JasonThick 0]

Thank you for all the input. Yea I didn't see any mention of the day/night feature on any of the spec sheets for the DV10x7B-SA2L. There is a comparison page on fujinon's website where you can pull up multiple lens and it lists their attributes. There it said 'yes' for day/night feature, but apparently this is a mistake.

 

I gave Fujinon's tech support a call today to ask them about that feature, and they confirmed the lens was not IR corrected.

 

While I was talking to the guy, I explained to him what I wanted to do, and at first he recommended a zoom lens, but he said that they can be very expensive. He did recommend another lens, the YV10x5HR4A-SA2L

http://www.fujifilmusa.com/products/optical_devices/security/vari-focal/day-night-series/yv10x5hr4a-sa2l/

 

This is a 5-50mm lens, with Day/Night, automatic iris, rated for 1.3MP, minimum focus distance of 30cm, for a 1/3in sensor.

 

One the paper it seems like the lens will work with the ACTi D21, which is a 1MP camera with 1/4in sensor. The camera also has a DC Iris port.

 

The cheapest I could find the lens was for $67 new. It's a little more than I wanted to pay but doable.

 

 

As I was reading through the specs for the ACTi D21, I realized the power is PoE, so now I need to find a four port switch with PoE.