Sanity check - budget-mid home system

[rtpg 0]

Hi all,

 

Like probably many of you, I started out looking at the various packaged options (e.g. Costco, Sams - NightOwl, ...), then wanted to do some more investigation and am now looking at components. Read about as much as my brain can absorb at the moment, here and elsewhere online.

 

I'm looking at a system for a single family ranch (mine), 4-6 outdoor cameras to start, and adding a few more outdoor + indoor later.

Initial budget as close to 1k as I can go..OK if it means buying only 2 cams to start, and adding more later.

 

I've come up with:

Definitely POE - I've wired a house as well as datacenters in cat5e/6 before, don't mind building custom length cables, and it's a lot saner than trying to wire power to 4-6 or more outdoor cameras. It looks like a number of 8 channel systems only have 4 POE ports, which is sort of goofy...

Mounting will be in the attic or in garage loft, primary access will be remote via browser/mac. I'm fine ssh-ing in to the shell if I have to on occasion, but hoping I can do basic configuration and not just view via a non-IE browser, or initial one time setup with an LCD connected to the NVR.

 

I don't need or see benefits to high MP cameras at this point. I'm considering a pair of 720p or better domes for the pair of entries, one 1.3MP or better for the long driveway, then adding in cameras and triggers as I can, depending on total price, etc.

 

My current NAS is pretty underpowered to add software to, so have been looking at Dahua and Hikvision, at this point probably ordering overseas/semi-directly. I just saw that Dahua is re-branded as Q-Cee and Hikvision as Lorex/Swann - not sure that changes my thinking much, although wondering is it still difficult to get Dahua firmware updates?

 

I've been looking at the Hikvision DS-7616NI-SE/P or the DS-7608NI-SE/P at ~$300-$400, then the Dahua NVR5208-P or NVR5216, which if I'm not mistaken, can capture around double the bandwidth/rate vs the Hikvision. I probably don't need a 16 channel, but the cost difference is minimal, and if it gains me bandwidth or at least 8POE ports, I'm fine with it, vs adding another POE switch into the mix to start. Is there a 'one step up' model Hikvision that's more comparable or something in the same general price/capability range I should look into? (see prior Q about firmware updates for Dahua..)

 

Camera-wise, I've looked at the Hikvision DS-2CD2032, or Dahua HFW2100P at this point for bullets, haven't made it into the domes yet.

 

Anything jumping out as 'don't do this!' or 'consider this instead' to anyone w/more experience (not too tough to beat mine in this case )

[Firefighter 0]

I'll PM you a link for the best priced hikvision 3mp I've found. (I know you weren't interested but maybe the price will change your mind being sub 170

[rtpg 0]

Thanks. I'm guessing the 3MP is the Hikvision DS-2CD2032-I?

 

Any NVR recommendations or thoughts?

[afschmitt 0]

I am in the process of building a new house and have a similar budget and problem.

 

6 outdoor cameras with night vision and POE.

I use Mac and Windows device so they need to work with both

I use iOS and Droid devices so they need to work on both.

I also want to use web browser for viewing and playback.

I don't want to deal with an NVR so it needs SD support.

 

I decided on the Hikvision DS-2CD2532F. It will be released by the end of the year but it should run about $180 per camera from China which should put you at your $1k mark. I've been using Hikvision stuff without an NVR and have been very happy.

 

http://www.hikvision.com/UploadFile/image/2013103000523682122.pdf

[buellwinkle 0]

If the high megapixel doesn't benefit you much and 720P is good, the best deal I've seen is the Messoa bundle. The cameras typically run about 300 each by themselves but the bundle is $999 with 4 cameras and an NVR and switch. The NVR is 8 channel, so you can add as you go. A little higher end than the cameras you've been looking at that are made in China and offices in the U.S. for support. When I saw them at a trade show, they looked pretty decent. I asked Messoa to send me the cameras and NVR for a review and they said they would but it's the holidays, may take a bit longer .

[rtpg 0]

A bit more digging about, and still going back and forth.

Mainly going back and forth at this point between:

1. The Dahua 8 or 16 channel POE NVR (NVR5208-P or NVR5216-P) + ~$150 enterprise/AV 3TB HD + ~$100 spool of cat5e + RJ45 connectors, + ~$140-170 * N bullet 3MP Hikvision DS-2CD2032-I cameras, and 2 domes. Probably the most capable system, and can go higher on one dome if need be to use the audio input channel, and grow it later if/as I need or want to. $$ is adding up, though.

 

2. Costco pair of deals, believe same bullet camera as above + a Hikvision re-branded NVR, half the bandwidth of the Dahuas above, but not a terrible deal when considering the overall package. I don't *need* > 8 cameras today or even this year, and could consider picking up a second system on sale if/when it made sense later. Not so thrilled about the seeming issues in updating firmware (Swann or Lorex) on the NVRs, though.

http://www.costco.com/Swann-8-Channel-3MP-NVR-Security-System-with-2TB-HDD-and-4-1080p-Cameras.product.100058520.html

http://www.costco.com/Lorex-8-Channel-Full-HD-Real-Time-PoE-NVR-Security-System-with-2TB-Hard-Drive-and-6-1080p-IP-Cameras.product.100048586.html

I think the NVRs used above are the DS-7608NI-SE/P but may be wrong there. I'd want to add at least 1 dome to the first system but could make do for a bit with the 4 bullets, while the second one is complete enough for some time, but I haven't checked out which dome cameras are included.

 

3. Unknown.

 

BW - have a link or hints on finding the one you're mentioning?

[mechBgon 0]

I'm only familiar with the Grandstream stuff, but you could consider that approach if you have a spare PC. It doesn't have to be a powerhouse. My work system, recording 11 streams at once, including three 5MP cams, a 3MP, three 2MP and an analog transcoder with four channels, all at max resolution/framerate/bitrate, takes about 5% of a Core i3's power while at its minimum idle state of 1.55GHz. Still snapshots are handled by the native Windows IIS FTP server (and duplicated on the cameras' memory cards), video storage is on local HDDs in my case.

 

 

 

So something like an Core2 Duo with 2GB of RAM could handle the recording duties and save footage to your NAS, or locally for that matter. Their motion detection is driven by the cameras, so the CPU doesn't have to "watch" the videos and detect motion in real time. Displaying the streams, particularly from HD cams, will ratchet up the pressure... displaying all 11 primary streams at once, over Remote Desktop Connection, will take my Core i3 up to about 50% load at its full 3.2GHz. But there's not much point in using a primary stream if you're going to squish a 2560 x 1920 video into 1/16th of the screen... at more than a 2 x 2 array of videos, I might as well switch to secondary streams.

 

If you're interested in picking my brain on the subject, feel free to shoot me a PM. Oh, and I could also point you to an affordable 8-port PoE injector if you have a suitable switch already.

[rtpg 0]

I've got a half server rack full of equipment, but have been phasing out it's usage - my power bill thanks me.

5yr old enterprise servers w/hardware based RAID just aren't the most power efficient things in the world..saving a few $ on equipment but adding $10+/month to the power bill isn't a real net win to me.

 

I'd consider a spare C2D laptop as a control station. That would mean adding an 8 or 12 port POE switch (with 8-12 actual POE ports, not the bizarre cheaper half/half configs..silly, as POE should auto-dectect, no?), and either direct connection from the laptop to my existing NAS, or building or buying an additional NAS or drive enclosure. I don't think it's video would be up to the task, but the intent is primarily to configure and view remotely.

 

I don't want to use my primary system as the NVR or system head. I could probably configure each camera directly and have it writing to a dedicated NAS, which I'd then bridge between dedicated camera + home networks. That would either assume built-in camera NVR/capabilities are fully sufficient by themselves, or I'd be back at adding in a laptop, or worse, a dedicated system as an NVR/control station.

 

All of this would be a fun project, but I'm not sure it's really an economical one...

I'd also be looking at using Linux os OSX as the control station.

[shockwave199 0]

I think you kind of boxed yourself in a bit as far as the 1k budget. The only good deals you're gonna find is costco Swann/Lorex/Qsee. Those nvr's will give you the 8 built in POE and cameras, close to your budget. But personally I'm not sold on the quality of those packages. Also personally, I prefer dahua and that would either be an OEM from some vendors, including qsee. I like their GUI in the NVR's, and I like the web service app and PSS software. I also think the nvr itself is more full featured, with alarm in/out and ptz. But if you're gonna piece it together, you have these choices for nvr's

 

http://wrightwoodsurveillance.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=67&products_id=306

 

And this one which I think I would get before the others

 

http://www.securitycameraking.com/32-channel-elite-mini-nvr-59239-prd1.html

 

But unless you have some good drives already, you'll have to drop a decent size drive in these things- at the very least 3tb but preferably larger. So your budget can be eaten up on the nvr alone. Then there's the cameras, and I would suggest to make it easier, you get the cameras that match the nvr. Mix and match camera brands with different nvr's is not advised. Dahua nvr with dahua cameras, or hikvison nvr with hik cameras. Bump up your starter budget to 1,500 and you can have a start with an nvr and a couple cameras.

[rtpg 0]

I think you kind of boxed yourself in a bit as far as the 1k budget. The only good deals you're gonna find is costco Swann/Lorex/Qsee. Those nvr's will give you the 8 built in POE and cameras, close to your budget. But personally I'm not sold on the quality of those packages. Also personally, I prefer dahua and that would either be an OEM from some vendors, including qsee. I like their GUI in the NVR's, and I like the web service app and PSS software. I also think the nvr itself is more full featured, with alarm in/out and ptz.

I think you're right about boxing myself in. I know this stuff is a hobby for some, and that's fine, but for me, it's really about bang for the buck in solving a problem, and something that I'll have for more than a year before 'upgrading' in this case. After drawing up my property and expected camera coverage, the final camera count is growing. Right now I'm at an 'ideal' of 3 domes and 9 bullets, and I could easily see adding at least 3 more inside, plus an audio in/out down the line.

 

But if you're gonna piece it together, you have these choices for nvr's

http://wrightwoodsurveillance.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=67&products_id=306

And this one which I think I would get before the others

http://www.securitycameraking.com/32-channel-elite-mini-nvr-59239-prd1.html

But unless you have some good drives already, you'll have to drop a decent size drive in these things- at the very least 3tb but preferably larger. So your budget can be eaten up on the nvr alone. Then there's the cameras, and I would suggest to make it easier, you get the cameras that match the nvr. Mix and match camera brands with different nvr's is not advised. Dahua nvr with dahua cameras, or hikvison nvr with hik cameras. Bump up your starter budget to 1,500 and you can have a start with an nvr and a couple cameras.

 

I agree between the two of those, I'd go with the latter. What is it? Hikvision DS-7732NI-SP? Is there a reason it's claiming no audio inputs?

 

I have a feeling IF I see a decent enough deal, I'll pick up a Costco deal with the Hikvision cams, and replace the NVR down the road. If I can't find a good enough deal, I'm thinking I'll be going with the Dahua 5232-8P, with a smaller number of cameras to start, and add onto it gradually/as I can.

 

I have a question on the N channel POE NVRs, where N > # of POE channels.

Am I wrong in assuming I can extend the POE subnet via additional switch or via the NVR WAN port, and still add additional IP cameras into the mix?

 

If so, would that not also mean I could use a wireless/wired bridge to keep the camera subnet traffic separate from my home network aside from the NVR WAN IP itself, but then still connect wirelessly if I wanted to connect to an individual camera?

[shockwave199 0]

I agree between the two of those, I'd go with the latter. What is it? Hikvision DS-7732NI-SP? Is there a reason it's claiming no audio inputs?

It has two way audio In/Out. Spec sheet is wrong I believe. That's a dahua. Where are you getting the 5232-8P. Don't see that anywhere- tough unit to find.

 

have a question on the N channel POE NVRs, where N > # of POE channels. Am I wrong in assuming I can extend the POE subnet via additional switch or via the NVR WAN port, and still add additional IP cameras into the mix

Not sure about that one as far as the WAN port. But most of these dahua units only supply 4 poe no matter how many channels they are, in which case to fill out the rest of the channels you need a switch and then within the nvr 'remote device' section you grab the camera address on the network and pull it in. There's also PSS software that will open up any dahua camera you point it to.

 

If so, would that not also mean I could use a wireless/wired bridge to keep the camera subnet traffic separate from my home network aside from the NVR WAN IP itself, but then still connect wirelessly if I wanted to connect to an individual camera?

I think most will tell you that's the preferred way and the biggest reason why they don't prefer an nvr with poe at all. But I could have sworn you were looking for one with full poe, which is convenient of course. I'll be doing that for home use. And since you can hit the cameras web interface even within the nvr with a little hijinks, for home use it's accetable to me.

[rtpg 0]

I agree between the two of those, I'd go with the latter. What is it? Hikvision DS-7732NI-SP? Is there a reason it's claiming no audio inputs?

It has two way audio In/Out. Spec sheet is wrong I believe. That's a dahua. Where are you getting the 5232-8P. Don't see that anywhere- tough unit to find.

Which Dahua is it? Too many system specs in my head ad the moment, blurring together.

PM inbound in a min on the other..

 

have a question on the N channel POE NVRs, where N > # of POE channels. Am I wrong in assuming I can extend the POE subnet via additional switch or via the NVR WAN port, and still add additional IP cameras into the mix

Not sure about that one as far as the WAN port. But most of these dahua units only supply 4 poe no matter how many channels they are, in which case to fill out the rest of the channels you need a switch and then within the nvr 'remote device' section you grab the camera address on the network and pull it in. There's also PSS software that will open up any dahua camera you point it to.

Will PSS work with the re-brands as well? (e.g. Q-See)

This (# of POE ports) is one of the reasons for the model I'm looking at, plus the overall bandwidth. I'm not going to ever hit 32 cameras, but > 8 at some point (at which point I'll add a separate POE switch), while 8 POE ports drops my 'need to buy extra hw' requirements up front.

 

If so, would that not also mean I could use a wireless/wired bridge to keep the camera subnet traffic separate from my home network aside from the NVR WAN IP itself, but then still connect wirelessly if I wanted to connect to an individual camera?

I think most will tell you that's the preferred way and the biggest reason why they don't prefer an nvr with poe at all. But I could have sworn you were looking for one with full poe, which is convenient of course. I'll be doing that for home use. And since you can hit the cameras web interface even within the nvr with a little hijinks, for home use it's accetable to me.

Yeah, I was looking for full POE, still am, but I get why it makes sense not to use the onboard POE ports. I've built out a few data centers before, and cabling can make you scream or keep you sane, depending on how it's done. As it stands now, I plan on leaving the NVR itself in the attic, and will leave some extra cable length all around. If I ever decide I 'have to'/want to NVR in the bedroom or office, I'd probably consider going to a single POE GbE switch, wire the cams to it, and then drop a single line down to a wall plate in the bedroom or office to the NVR.

 

Once the bits are all collected, I'll be confirming a few things before mounting anything semi-permanently if I get some time, including how exactly to extend beyond the 8 ports - whether or not I can plug in a POE switch upstream to the NVR POE ports with added cams, or only into the WAN side, see if I can add a bridge in on the POE side or WAN only, etc. I did cat6 to a former house, 4 ports in most rooms, single end point closet w/pushdown patch panels, allowing to do whatever I liked with them.. Maybe one of these days I'll have enough time to build out a true wiring closet in this house, but for now, all should be 'well enough.'

[mechBgon 0]

I've got a half server rack full of equipment, but have been phasing out it's usage - my power bill thanks me.

5yr old enterprise servers w/hardware based RAID just aren't the most power efficient things in the world..saving a few $ on equipment but adding $10+/month to the power bill isn't a real net win to me.

 

We're fortunate here, we have electricity at only 6.9 cents per kW-hour if I recall correctly. But power consumption still factored into my setup because I want a good runtime on UPS power. With two 3TB Western Digital Red drives, an SSD and an 80Plus Gold-rated PSU, the Core i3 does a good job, typically at about 31 watts for the server itself when it's just recording and not displaying the streams onscreen. It helps that only one HDD is running the majority of the time, since the software fills up one drive before starting on the other. The full setup (server, 16-port Dell gigabit switch, POE injector, 48V POE power brick, 12V power brick for analog, and 11 cams) is at about 90 watts when the IR-equipped cameras are running with IR on. My el-budgeto APC UPS estimates 52 minutes of runtime, which I would like to increase, but it's better than nothing.

 

I don't think it's video would be up to the task, but the intent is primarily to configure and view remotely.

 

You can take the Gsurf Pro video requirements with a big grain of salt. They suggest a whopping GTX660-based card for the server, but there is absolutely no call for that. If you want to test your laptop, you could install the Gsurf Pro software (it's free, and in fact I think it's open-source), then add some of Grandstream's own live-demo cams and view them. Here's one that's currently up: http://66.228.93.51/index.html 2560 x 1920 resolution, so if your lappie can handle that, it's going to be fine. To add a device in Gsurf Pro, it' System Config > Device Config > ADD and make sure to pick IPCAM as the device type. Username and password are blank, just give it the IP address and save, then double-click it in the left panel to view the stream.

 

I don't want to use my primary system as the NVR or system head. I could probably configure each camera directly and have it writing to a dedicated NAS, which I'd then bridge between dedicated camera + home networks. That would either assume built-in camera NVR/capabilities are fully sufficient by themselves, or I'd be back at adding in a laptop, or worse, a dedicated system as an NVR/control station.

 

I started by trying to manage the cams directly with browsers, but the FTP server and NVR software is a much easier combo. My typical workflow is

 

1. get the coffeemaker started!

2. connect to my surveillance server at work via Remote Desktop

3. look at the photos the cameras sent to the FTP server when they detected motion overnight

4. if anything looks suspicious in a photo, then start Replayer, pull up the associated video, and see what was going on

5. if I see something in the video that needs to be documented, either take snapshots from the video, or export the video and convert it to a playable .AVI file which I can then enhance or whatever.

 

Periodically I archive the snapshots and bump off old video files so I can get enough capacity free for proper defragmentation of the HDDs.

 

I'd also be looking at using Linux os OSX as the control station.

I don't think they've got a non-Windows version at the moment, so that would be a sticking point. But FWIW I see refurb Core 2 Duo desktops with Win7 for around $130ish at Newegg.

 

I will add that I have had some bugs to report to them. They do work on them, it's not sell-it-and-run.

[rtpg 0]

I've got a half server rack full of equipment, but have been phasing out it's usage - my power bill thanks me.

5yr old enterprise servers w/hardware based RAID just aren't the most power efficient things in the world..saving a few $ on equipment but adding $10+/month to the power bill isn't a real net win to me.

 

We're fortunate here, we have electricity at only 6.9 cents per kW-hour if I recall correctly. But power consumption still factored into my setup because I want a good runtime on UPS power. With two 3TB Western Digital Red drives, an SSD and an 80Plus Gold-rated PSU, the Core i3 does a good job, typically at about 31 watts for the server itself when it's just recording and not displaying the streams onscreen. It helps that only one HDD is running the majority of the time, since the software fills up one drive before starting on the other. The full setup (server, 16-port Dell gigabit switch, POE injector, 48V POE power brick, 12V power brick for analog, and 11 cams) is at about 90 watts when the IR-equipped cameras are running with IR on. My el-budgeto APC UPS estimates 52 minutes of runtime, which I would like to increase, but it's better than nothing.

That's great info, thanks!

~9c/kWh here + $10 monthly 'why not?' fee. After running SAN, PowerEdge and similar servers for a while, I decided it just wasn't worth it, cheaper to pay for hosting on Linux systems for the most part. Wife thanks me, too. This all definitely gives me some things to think about for the future, though - thanks! (went looking for a thumbs up smiley, but doesn't seem to be one here? )

 

One of these days SSD costs will drop even further, and a Thunderbolt laptop going to an SSD enclosure will make for some pretty decent low power home servers.

 

Almost an hour runtime isn't bad at all.

 

 

You can take the Gsurf Pro video requirements with a big grain of salt. They suggest a whopping GTX660-based card for the server, but there is absolutely no call for that. If you want to test your laptop, you could install the Gsurf Pro software (it's free, and in fact I think it's open-source), then add some of Grandstream's own live-demo cams and view them. Here's one that's currently up: http://66.228.93.51/index.html 2560 x 1920 resolution, so if your lappie can handle that, it's going to be fine. To add a device in Gsurf Pro, it' System Config > Device Config > ADD and make sure to pick IPCAM as the device type. Username and password are blank, just give it the IP address and save, then double-click it in the left panel to view the stream.

 

That's cool, thanks!

 

I started by trying to manage the cams directly with browsers, but the FTP server and NVR software is a much easier combo. My typical workflow is

 

1. get the coffeemaker started!

2. connect to my surveillance server at work via Remote Desktop

3. look at the photos the cameras sent to the FTP server when they detected motion overnight

4. if anything looks suspicious in a photo, then start Replayer, pull up the associated video, and see what was going on

5. if I see something in the video that needs to be documented, either take snapshots from the video, or export the video and convert it to a playable .AVI file which I can then enhance or whatever.

 

Periodically I archive the snapshots and bump off old video files so I can get enough capacity free for proper defragmentation of the HDDs.

 

This makes a lot of sense. It also makes me wish that NVR 'embedded Linux' was actually installed on an SD/media card internally, as there would be lots of easy customization able to be done via scripting.

 

I'd also be looking at using Linux os OSX as the control station.

I don't think they've got a non-Windows version at the moment, so that would be a sticking point. But FWIW I see refurb Core 2 Duo desktops with Win7 for around $130ish at Newegg.

 

I will add that I have had some bugs to report to them. They do work on them, it's not sell-it-and-run.

True, or I suppose I could put Windows on the laptop (C2D, 4GB RAM, old but still capable outside of video), and remote into it from whatever OS I prefer. Will do some digging, there's got to be some open source software out there that could be the basis of an NVR UI - possible even their 'embedded OS' source is available, being Linux based and with the GPL, etc..

 

I have a feeling I'm going to go to an already built commercial NVR, at least at this time. Building one from scratch would be a lot of fun, but I've already got too many hobbies, too much work, and a wife I'd like to spend time with.