Question about high-end IP cameras

[jackleblack 0]

Hello,

 

Are you required to have a dedicated server / gateway for the high end cameras like the Mobotix M25 or the Avigilon 3 MP H.264 HD, or all the configuration can be done via the web interface and they can run independently? I only need to use them as a webcam that uploads a picture every 2-5 minutes to a website (which they both should support) without any video surveillance.

This is an example of the final result I am looking for: http://cams.skilouise.com/cam2.jpg

 

Just some background to the problem:

I'm a 2nd year IT networking student, and I got hired as an intern for 3 weeks on a ski resort, where they tasked me with the installation of 2 new cameras for our website with a budjet of ~$1000 per camera. We need them to be high quality, outdoor-proof by -30 C, and upload a picture by FTP to our website every 2-5 or so minutes. We are not going to use them as video surveillance, just as a webcam. I never touched anything beyond simple sub $150 home cameras, so I have no prior experience with the high end cameras. After searching and asking around a bit I got recommended the Mobotix cameras, particularly the Mobotix AllAround M25M-Sec model.

The problem is that I wasn't able to find a concrete answer if all the configuration can be done via the web interface and can they run independently, or a server is required for their control.

 

The other camera I was looking at is the Avigilon 3 MP H.264 HD which is a bit pricier, but the image quality looks to be a bit better.

Feel free to suggest other cameras if you know of anything that would fit better for this project.

 

Thank you

Edited December 21, 2013 by Guest

[buellwinkle 0]

I think getting those cameras as web cams to FTP photos may be overkill. Mobotix new cameras are pretty poor in low light despite their clever marketing and the M25 is day only, requires a good amount of light to work, not good for dim area, a lot of noise. Not familiar with Avigilon.

 

I would go with a Axis P3364-VE, 1MP version with their Lightfinder feature which is plenty of resolution for a website, under $1,000 and you can remotely focus and adjust the focal length (a real PITA to manually do this on say Mobotix when it's mounted high on a pole and it's snowing and you have gloves on). Axis will FTP images on a schedule or interval even with the same name so you can easily use the fixed name on a website. You can record on camera on the SD card if you like and everything can be done from the web browser interface. Also, it's rated to -40C/F.

[jackleblack 0]

Hi,

Our IPPTZ-EL2MPL12X-Mini-O is rated to -40c and we provide the software free with lifetime tech support

Hello,

Thanks for the reply. I took a look at the camera on your website, but it's pretty hard to judge how does it compare without any image / video samples.

 

I think getting those cameras as web cams to FTP photos may be overkill. Mobotix new cameras are pretty poor in low light despite their clever marketing and the M25 is day only, requires a good amount of light to work, not good for dim area, a lot of noise. Not familiar with Avigilon.

 

I would go with a Axis P3364-VE, 1MP version *snip*

Hello,

Thanks for the detailed response. One of the main reasons I thought of using the Mobotix was because the sample picture I provided above from a nearby ski resort was actually the M24 model, and the quality was really good. Looking at the specs it supports image format of 2048 x 1536 with a 5MP sensor, which is bigger than we actually need for the website, but we can always downsample the image which will result in greater quality anyways.

Ideally, the plan I was looking at was to install a panoramic view camera (so maybe the M25 with a wide lens, or the Q25 model) at the top of the mountain on the chair lift, and one lower with a view on the main lodge.

I am currently looking at the Axis P33 models, as well as the one you mentionned. I quickly glanced over it and it falls in the same price range, althrough the quality seems to be quite a bit worse for only a $100 difference. I found the Axis P3364-VE at $799 on Amazon, whereas the Mobotix M25M is $899.00.

I have some things to take care of, but I will go over it in more detail later today.

Cheers

[buellwinkle 0]

One of the main reasons I thought of using the Mobotix was because the sample picture I provided above from a nearby ski resort was actually the M24 model, and the quality was really good. Looking at the specs it supports image format of 2048 x 1536 with a 5MP sensor, which is bigger than we actually need for the website, but we can always downsample the image which will result in greater quality anyways.

Ideally, the plan I was looking at was to install a panoramic view camera (so maybe the M25 with a wide lens, or the Q25 model) at the top of the mountain on the chair lift, and one lower with a view on the main lodge.

I am currently looking at the Axis P33 models, as well as the one you mentionned. I quickly glanced over it and it falls in the same price range, althrough the quality seems to be quite a bit worse for only a $100 difference. I found the Axis P3364-VE at $799 on Amazon, whereas the Mobotix M25M is $899.00.

I have some things to take care of, but I will go over it in more detail later today.

Cheers

 

First, let me tell you, the M24 is a good camera, the M25 is a piece of poo. Their new 5MP sensor which by the way is really 3MP (marketing genius, let people believe they are getting a real 5MP camera but give them 3MP images, nobody will ever figure it out) and the image quality is not in the same league as the older M24 or the Axis cameras. It has a harshness to it that's hard to describe and the image looks like you took a 1MP image and blew it up to 3MP because it has jagged edges and pixilation. I would compare it more to a 1MP Foscam that you took and made into a 3MP image. Yes, that's how bad it is.

 

If you really want 5MP and I have no idea why you would ever post a 5MP image, I would get the Axis P3367-VE, best 5MP I've used. But honestly, how are you going to display a 5MP on a website? I would be concerned with a 1MP image on a website.

 

As for price, yes, $100 difference, but the reality is, that Mobotix is day only not day/night like the Axis, it's a fixed lens, to change you have to buy a whole new sensor and lens, a few hundred. The Axis is varifocal, you can set the viewing angle at the click of a button. Also, the Axis P3364-VE has a 2.5mm lens, that's very wide at 105 degrees. You can go hemispherical, not sure Axis makes an outdoor one and the old Mobotix Q is pretty good, I used one, but I would not get the new one with that horrible 5MP sensor. The problem with hemispherical is that when you FTP them image, you will get a circular image, like a fisheye, cool effect but may not be what you want. It's misleading because you would have to view it through the browser or decent software to see the corrected multi-image output.

 

If you go Mobotix and I have a bunch of them, so not trying to talk you out of Mobotix, see if you can get the older models even if you have to pay more, like the M24. Trust me, at sunset the M25 will be very noisy, was just going over it with our installer, how bad it was and he had to have it switch to the night sensor sooner than normal.

[thewireguys 3]

Skip the JPEG FTP upload every 5 min and go with live real time streaming like this: http://cetronia.twgcameras.tv/

 

I have 3 ski resorts for customers so let me know if you have any questions.

[buellwinkle 0]

I agree, live streaming is the way to go. The problem with Mobotix is they are incapable of putting out a standard RTSP stream so most streaming software won't work with it, I tried different products that work with 99% of all cameras. They do have the ability to stream directly on a website which most cameras cannot do. It works, but haven't figured out how to embed the user/password into it. meaning anyone that looks at it has to enter the user/password, sort of dumb and it didn't work on all browsers, it worked with IE and Firefox, not Chrome. Also, it makes the camera do all the work, which may be OK, but I would imagine that if you put a few active people looking at it, it may or may not hold up, don't know.

 

I was going to try and use BlueIris to stream as they support the camera and can do RTMP re-streaming to a website. Also, they can FTP images to a website. Actually pretty efficient at it because it's not doing normal NVR stuff and motion detection.

 

There are some streaming services that accept Mobotix cameras and provide the service which is probably the best way to go if this is of interest. You just pay them a monthly fee and they take your camera stream and restream for flash and html5, very cool to have on a website. Here's a cool one in San Diego - http://www.SunDiegoLive.com, 1080P streaming from 3 cameras. His company provides streaming services and he's got serious bandwidth.

[jackleblack 0]

One of the main reasons I thought of using the Mobotix *snip*

 

First, let me tell you, the M24 is a good camera, the M25 is a piece of poo. Their new 5MP sensor which by the way is really 3MP (marketing genius, let people believe they are getting a real 5MP camera but give them 3MP images, nobody will ever figure it out) and the image quality is not in the same league as the older M24 or the Axis cameras. It has a harshness to it that's hard to describe and the image looks like you took a 1MP image and blew it up to 3MP because it has jagged edges and pixilation. I would compare it more to a 1MP Foscam that you took and made into a 3MP image. Yes, that's how bad it is.

I did not realize that. I guess you could say that I did fell in their marketing pretty well. Thank you for the heads up, I will be looking at the M24 models.

 

If you really want 5MP and I have no idea why you would ever post a 5MP image, I would get the Axis P3367-VE, best 5MP I've used. But honestly, how are you going to display a 5MP on a website? I would be concerned with a 1MP image on a website.

We don't really need 5MP picture quality, we just need something that still looks nice when you put it up full screen and doesn't look too pixelated. The original plan was to keep it at 3MP at most, but when I found out that the nearby resort was using the Mobotix M24 model, and the M25 model recently came out with a higher quality sensor (or so they say, which isn't the case apparently) for the same price, I thought it was a good deal.

 

As for price, yes, $100 difference, but the reality is, that Mobotix is day only not day/night like the Axis, it's a fixed lens, to change you have to buy a whole new sensor and lens, a few hundred. The Axis is varifocal, you can set the viewing angle at the click of a button. Also, the Axis P3364-VE has a 2.5mm lens, that's very wide at 105 degrees. You can go hemispherical, not sure Axis makes an outdoor one and the old Mobotix Q is pretty good, I used one, but I would not get the new one with that horrible 5MP sensor. The problem with hemispherical is that when you FTP them image, you will get a circular image, like a fisheye, cool effect but may not be what you want. It's misleading because you would have to view it through the browser or decent software to see the corrected multi-image output.

Being able to take pictures at night is not a huge concern, because the ski resort is only open from 08:30 AM - 04:30 PM, which is the main period we need the clients to be able to see what are the conditions. It would be nice bonus if it would work in the morning at 06:30 - 08:00 AM so that people could look up the conditions before driving all the way up to the mountain. I am not throwing the idea out of the window to be able to capture pictures when it's dark, but it would be a nice bonus, not a necessity.

As for the Mobotix Q model, you are right about the fisheye capture. Although it is possible to post-process the image to format you want. After looking a bit more into the process of reproducing it from a fisheye image, I think it's best to stick to the regular lens. Here's the example once again from that same ski resort that I posted previously with the Q24 lens:

http://cams.skilouise.com/archives/cam8/2013/12/20/

 

If you go Mobotix and I have a bunch of them, so not trying to talk you out of Mobotix, see if you can get the older models even if you have to pay more, like the M24. Trust me, at sunset the M25 will be very noisy, was just going over it with our installer, how bad it was and he had to have it switch to the night sensor sooner than normal.

Thank you very much for this information, I will try to find the M24 model if we end up going with Mobotix.

 

Skip the JPEG FTP upload every 5 min and go with live real time streaming like this: http://cetronia.twgcameras.tv/

 

I have 3 ski resorts for customers so let me know if you have any questions.

 

I agree, live streaming is the way to go. The problem with Mobotix is they are incapable of putting out a standard RTSP stream so most streaming software won't work with it, I tried different products that work with 99% of all cameras. They do have the ability to stream directly on a website which most cameras cannot do. It works, but haven't figured out how to embed the user/password into it. meaning anyone that looks at it has to enter the user/password, sort of dumb and it didn't work on all browsers, it worked with IE and Firefox, not Chrome. Also, it makes the camera do all the work, which may be OK, but I would imagine that if you put a few active people looking at it, it may or may not hold up, don't know.

 

I was going to try and use BlueIris to stream as they support the camera and can do RTMP re-streaming to a website. Also, they can FTP images to a website. Actually pretty efficient at it because it's not doing normal NVR stuff and motion detection.

 

There are some streaming services that accept Mobotix cameras and provide the service which is probably the best way to go if this is of interest. You just pay them a monthly fee and they take your camera stream and restream for flash and html5, very cool to have on a website. Here's a cool one in San Diego - http://www.SunDiegoLive.com, 1080P streaming from 3 cameras. His company provides streaming services and he's got serious bandwidth.

It thought about real time streaming, but I was specifically told that they want only a picture every X minutes. I was not given a specific reason as to why to, so I will mention it today at the meeting and see what the manager says.

Thanks again for the detailed replies and the help.

 

I had some time to go over some of the suggestions, and the AXIS P3364-VE does look like a viable alternative. The 6mm version allows it to go down to 2.5 mm focal length with a 105 horizontal FOV which would be really useful for capturing wide shots which is what we might need at the 2nd location. Although I still think that the 1MP sensor is a downside to the quality. It will look fine minimized, but if you would open it full screen the quality is not great for a 720p image. The point of comparison for the quality that I use for any camera is:

http://www.skilouise.com/conditions/mountain-cam.php

We're hoping to achieve a somewhat similar picture quality with the cameras we will be ordering.

Ideally I am looking in the 2MP range (3MP at most), which I personally think is the quality bar that we need to achieve.

 

So, after some digging around here is what I found would fit just within the AXIS brand cameras.

For a wide angle shot at the very top I could use the AXIS M3025-VE / AXIS M3026-VE. The price is close ~$551.01 vs ~$649.95 respectively. The downside of the M3025-VE is that is performs way worse in low light compared to the AXIS M3026-VE (about 3 times worse looking at raw data), so I think the M3026-VE would be a better choice overall.

As for the base station camera with a regular FOV (<50), there isn't really any comparable dome camera from Axis with the 2-3MP lens. The only choice is the AXIS P3367-VE but that one is a 5MP and costs over $1100. Therefore the AXIS P3364-VE 6mm would the one used here priced at $798.89.

 

The Mobotix counterpart I am comparing as of now is the M24M-Security Day model ~$998.00 with different lenses. Probably the the L22 lens (~85 horizontal FOV) for the top, and the L43 for the base station (~45 horizontal FOV).

This is what I used just as a price / lens reference:

http://store.videosurveillance.com/mobotix-m24-ip-camera

 

All in all, Axis are better on paper with the better low light capture and their cheaper price, but I feel like the end product picture quality might be lacking. I should probably just listen to your advice and go for the Axis model, since they are easier to install and manage...

Well, I'll take another look at the Avigilon camera offers as they are pretty close to Axis according to several reviews and forums, and see if I can find anything comparable to the AXIS P3364-VE model, and if not I will just propose both camera choices and see they would prefer to spend more money and get the more expensive Mobotix solution, or go for a tad lower quality but cheaper Axis ones.

Thanks again for all the input buellwinkle

[thewireguys 3]

http://www.skilouise.com/conditions/mountain-cam.php

 

Looks like Mobotix cameras in that link.

 

They might have said upload images every 15 min because that is all they know. Real time streaming is very easy to setup and embed into your site.

 

I would not recommend Avigilon for this project. Avigilon makes secuirty cameras not "web cameras"

 

My first choice over Mobotix and Axis would be Hikvision.

[Voipmodo 0]

For this type of application we usually recommend Mobotix hands down over others. We just had a Ski Resort project last week and they ended up using Axis for inside the lodge and Mobotix for on the slopes.

 

Just from a ruggedness standpoint we have used them in Nome, Alaska; Arctic Circle, Australia and a few resorts.

 

The new 5mp has had some really positive feedback from our customers who have tried it. From what we have seen they are using 5MP sensors and only recording at 3MP. This is due to more of the limits of the processing power in the cameras more then anything else. In real world we see most customers only record at 1MP or lower anyways so for a large percentage of customers this is no issue.

 

 

I havent gotten down to chip level analysis on the new sensors but I am leaning towards them using pixel binning to get the better low light performance.

 

Both Mobotix and Axis are great brands, we tend to lean towards Mobotix due to its all in one design, configuration options, and they are built like tanks.

 

Feel free to PM with any questions if you are leaning towards mobotix.

[thewireguys 3]

Mobotix has a nice rugged design they are really falling behind all other manufactures. All the Mobotix dealers that I know are using other products now.

 

1) No H.264 support

2) US support is very spotty

3) Price

4) Software is way over contemplated and not user friendly

[Peter_ 2]

Although I've switched from Mobotix to Axis recently, I do have to say that the Mobotix M12 never once failed or locked up on me. They are built well. Axis does do much better in low light, no arguing that.

[StanLee2066 0]

All in all, Axis are better on paper with the better low light capture and their cheaper price, but I feel like the end product picture quality might be lacking. I should probably just listen to your advice and go for the Axis model, since they are easier to install and manage...

 

The Axis are not just better on paper, their low-light performance really is outstanding. Why do you feel the picture quality might be lacking? I have one and can vouch for their excellent picture quality and performance. They are also extremely flexible in how you can use them - haven't come across any limitations for my needs. They are well built and rugged. It's been -25C for a few day here and still working fine

 

EDIT: I have the p3364-VE

[Voipmodo 0]

Those are actually the reasons we like Mobotix as a product line. H.264 is good on compression but can be lossy. While not perfect, the mxpeg is pretty decent. I am waiting to see how h.265 or other codecs that are supporting 4k change things in the future.

 

We support all our sales internally and this allows us to differentiate over other dealers and outlets like amazon. You can buy Mobotix on Amazon but good luck with getting any warranty or tech support.

 

Yes the software is not user friendly at first but for most people does the job. For large projects or multiple brand installs we are a strong proponent of Milestone VMS.

 

 

Axis is more a mainstream, standard install type of product. Mobotix is despite their marketing, a niche product that does its job well in those non run of the mill installs, with remote site / solar being I feel the strongest one.

 

 

Mobotix has a nice rugged design they are really falling behind all other manufactures. All the Mobotix dealers that I know are using other products now.

 

1) No H.264 support

2) US support is very spotty

3) Price

4) Software is way over contemplated and not user friendly

[buellwinkle 0]

I know the M302x series is cheaper, but doesn't have the lightfinder feature for low light sensitivity. The M24 at Lake Louis shots really fall off early, that sensor needs a lot of light, that's why they sell models with a color and b&w dedicated night sensor in the same camera which is what we use, the M12, D12, D14, D15. The P33 with lightfinder like the P3364 will let you see about 1 hour earlier and 1 hour later. Also, the M series has a 1 year warranty, the P's have 3 year warranty. Also there's other features lacking on the M like the motorized focus and focal length.

 

The image you show from Lake Louise is not even 1MP, it's 1280x480 and a 720P camera is 1280x720.

 

The Hikvision is a good buy, goes down to -30C and know of someone that very recently had it down to -22C in Canada without a problem. Has very good low light sensitivity and is 3MP. You would have to get the Varifocal version to get down to 2.8mm wide (same viewing angle as the Axis P33, or 105 degrees), the low end bullets only come as wide as 4mm which may be too narrow for you. The model number is the ds-2cd2632f-i. But the Hikvision and also Dahua, the two popular brands on this forum do not do FTP of images on an interval like Axis or Mobotix. You can use software like BlueIris to do that, but now you need a PC. But you can stream from the camera to a website using typical re-streaming software like Wowsa, Unreal Media Server, even open source VLC or use a service and there's lots of them that do this.

 

Just wanted to show you an Axis Lightfinder camera from one of my reviews. This is the P3384-VE, same as P3364-VE but has WDR which you don't need. This is in my driveway, no other lights other than street light across the street. If this was an M24 or M25, it would be black with a slight glow in the general direction of the street light. You say you don't need low light performance, but those pictures from Lake Louise are dark even during the day. At the slightest sense of sunset they get very noisy.

 

 

This is the same shot but during the day, you can click on the pictures to see the full resolution shot.

 

[pavel1883 0]

http://usrv.pp.ua/avigilon - here is web streaming example of using FullHD PTZ Avigilon camera installed on 20 level building.

 

Please measure incoming video bitrate and post it below.

 

Also look at PIP and audio possibilities. From my experience online streaming of just jpeg or without audio is useless wast of money at all. If you involved in streaming projects make it to be proud.

[buellwinkle 0]

Seems like it's struggling to focus. With that camera, can you set presets with preset focus like you can do on Axis PTZ so you can quickly go from preset to preset with it already focused by the time it gets to the location?

[elefantrider 0]

I know the M302x series is cheaper, but doesn't have the lightfinder feature for low light sensitivity. The M24 at Lake Louis shots really fall off early, that sensor needs a lot of light, that's why they sell models with a color and b&w dedicated night sensor in the same camera which is what we use, the M12, D12, D14, D15. The P33 with lightfinder like the P3364 will let you see about 1 hour earlier and 1 hour later. Also, the M series has a 1 year warranty, the P's have 3 year warranty. Also there's other features lacking on the M like the motorized focus and focal length.

 

The image you show from Lake Louise is not even 1MP, it's 1280x480 and a 720P camera is 1280x720.

 

The Hikvision is a good buy, goes down to -30C and know of someone that very recently had it down to -22C in Canada without a problem. Has very good low light sensitivity and is 3MP. You would have to get the Varifocal version to get down to 2.8mm wide (same viewing angle as the Axis P33, or 105 degrees), the low end bullets only come as wide as 4mm which may be too narrow for you. The model number is the ds-2cd2632f-i. But the Hikvision and also Dahua, the two popular brands on this forum do not do FTP of images on an interval like Axis or Mobotix. You can use software like BlueIris to do that, but now you need a PC. But you can stream from the camera to a website using typical re-streaming software like Wowsa, Unreal Media Server, even open source VLC or use a service and there's lots of them that do this.

 

Just wanted to show you an Axis Lightfinder camera from one of my reviews. This is the P3384-VE, same as P3364-VE but has WDR which you don't need. This is in my driveway, no other lights other than street light across the street. If this was an M24 or M25, it would be black with a slight glow in the general direction of the street light. You say you don't need low light performance, but those pictures from Lake Louise are dark even during the day. At the slightest sense of sunset they get very noisy.

 

 

This is the same shot but during the day, you can click on the pictures to see the full resolution shot.

 

 

Nice night image. What lux level or approx time of night was that taken? What resolution and frame rates do you get with that camera?