Surveillance Tech 0 Posted December 31, 2013 Hey guys, does anyone know of a company that sells used Spectra III or Spectra IV PTZ's? I don't need the back-cans, just need the actual PTZ. I am needing quite a few of them due to my company trying to phase out the Spectra II PTZ's that we are currently using. Also, if anyone knows of a company that buys used Spectra II PTZ's (some working, some not) I have over 100 of them that I need to get rid of. Any help is appreciated, thanks! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
varascope 0 Posted December 31, 2013 We have a large selection of used Spectra III and IV. What are you looking for and what quantity? PM me to discuss further. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
survtech 0 Posted December 31, 2013 (edited) TLS Electronics (Time Lapse Supply) sells "remanufactured" PTZs, including Pelco, AD, Kalatel and Ultrak. http://www.tlselectronics.com/ptzdomecamera.html Prices start at $545 for the dome drives. Keep in mind that Spectra III and IV dome drives don't work well in Spectra II back boxes due to the differences in cooling systems - Spectra II's had the cooling fans in the back box while Spectra III and Spectra IV have either fans or passive cooling located within the dome drive. The Spectra II cooling holes don't "line up" with Spectra III and IV holes. Because of this, air circulation is restricted between models. Spectra III and IV are almost totally inter-compatible. I strongly suggest replacing at least the back box mount and door assembly or the entire back box. TLS has been very helpful to our repair technician with questions about parts and service. Pelco used to have exploded views and parts lists on their website but it appears the documents have been taken down. You can, however, buy complete back boxes from Pelco. Spectra IV Spec Sheet lists major components like bubbles and back boxes on the last page. Edited January 1, 2014 by Guest Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
survtech 0 Posted December 31, 2013 Good luck finding a buyer for the Spectra II's. We've tried to find buyers for our surplus equipment for years with no luck. Since we also repair our own PTZs, we have resorted to cannibalizing what parts we could from Spectra II dome drives that fail and replacing them all in the long term. We are down to about 40 in production and have budgeted to replace those in 2014. One issue is that analog PTZs look like crap when fed through encoders. This is exacerbated by AGC in low light areas. To that end, we are debating whether to purchase Spectra IV's at around $1,100 each (SD423-F1 for most indoor applications) or bite the bullet and pay $2,000 and up for IP PTZs. On that note, anyone legitimately interested in buying a complete 1088x64 Pelco 9780 matrix system including CPUs, hot switch, patch panels, ribbon cables, keyboards and accessories should PM me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Surveillance Tech 0 Posted January 2, 2014 Yeah, that is the issue we are running into as well, in the past we have bought Spectra IV PTZ's and have just been replacing the older Spectra II PTZ's. I have been tasked with coming up with a plan to replace all of our Spectra II PTZ's with at least Spectra III/Spectra IV PTZ's. Trying to see if anyone needs the Spectra II PTZ's for parts or to resell, since we do not do a lot of camera repair on property. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
survtech 0 Posted January 2, 2014 You should consider repairing them. We used Pelco Repair for a while but found their pricing exorbitant so we switched to Moore's Electronics for a few years http://www.cctv-repair.com/. One of my techs volunteered to learn to repair PTZs and TLS Electronics was very helpful. They worked with him to troubleshoot most problems (most repairs are either simple mechanical or replacement of entire sub-assemblies). He has become an expert and by doing our own repairs we have saved many thousands of $$$ over either Pelco or Moore's. We set up a test bench with a pendant back box and IWM-GY mounted on a 2x4 frame, made a long male-to-female extension cable for the multipin connector and use a spare 9760 joystick set to directly control the PTZ and a monitor for testing. The entire test jig cost a few hundred $$$ and has paid for itself many times over. That won't help you with the Spectra II's because many of their parts have been discontinued. That is the primary reason we chose the same route - replacing them with Spectra IV's. We started that last year and have replaced around 30 so far and have budgeted the remaining 40 for 2014. We'll still repair Spectra III's and IVs. In fact, that is a consideration we'll have if we decide to switch to IP PTZs. Many of them are impossible to find repair parts. Considering the relatively short typical 2-year warranties on PTZs, we would prefer to buy brands where we can obtain replacement parts easily. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Surveillance Tech 0 Posted January 2, 2014 Yeah, we are using Moore Electronics (Page TV) right now for PTZ repair. We have basically the same set up as you for the test station in our tech shop. I agree it is well worth it, saved us lots of time trouble shooting. Does TLS Electronics have classes for PTZ repair? I am very interested in learning how to repair cameras, right now I am just taking them apart and tinkering with them trying to teach myself, but it would be great to find a class or trainer to help me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
survtech 0 Posted January 4, 2014 No, but they can usually answer technical questions and/or point your tech to the correct parts to solve a problem. My PTZ Tech learned a bit from me (Bench Tech background), some from people at TLS, some from examining invoices from Moore's and the rest OJT. He does get stumped on rare occasions but usually figures it out with or without help by now (~5 years). It will be interesting to see where we can take PTZ repairs as we start deploying IP PTZs. TLS doesn't have any parts, except for maybe Spectra IV Mini IP models so it may be difficult obtaining them for many brands. That is among the questions I will have when evaluating IP PTZs - are exploded views, parts lists and the parts themselves readily obtainable? We rarely buy extended warranties for even expensive cameras (and IP PTZs range from $2,000 and up) and standard warranties are typically quite short (typically 2 years) so we don't want to get bombarded with high repair costs when they fail out of warranty. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ak357 0 Posted January 4, 2014 That is among the questions I will have when evaluating IP PTZs - are exploded views, parts lists and the parts themselves readily obtainable? We rarely buy extended warranties for even expensive cameras (and IP PTZs range from $2,000 and up) and standard warranties are typically quite short (typically 2 years) so we don't want to get bombarded with high repair costs when they fail out of warranty. Which IP PTZ are you thinking to buy ? Thanks Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
survtech 0 Posted January 4, 2014 We're currently testing IndigoVision's 9000 and 11000 series and have been offered Pelco Spectra HDs by their rep. We've requested an Axis Q6044, whatever Bosch's and Sony's reps decide to provide and, I think, one from HIKVision (whose rep approached me). We're still open to suggestions but to be considered, PTZs will have to be able to provide at least two 30fps ONVIF streams (one TCP/IP Unicast and one Multicast). We'll be evaluating overall picture quality, frame rate, system compatibility, low light performance, ease of installation, etc. We will also inspect, as much as possible, physical construction and repairability. To give you an example of how thoroughly we approach testing, one sample (manufacturer shall remain unnamed) failed our evaluation before we even plugged the PTZ into our test setup. A physical inspection of the unit revealed many shortcomings, including an overly complex installation method that required attachment by many screws and open slip rings. Who wants to be standing at the top of a ladder trying to feed screws through the back box into a plenum box? That requires access to both sides of a ceiling tile or hard lid and juggling screws that are destined to fall and disappear on the floor. And my years of experience make me averse to non-sealed slip rings. I've had to clean or replace them too often. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ak357 0 Posted January 4, 2014 We're currently testing IndigoVision's 9000 and 11000 series and have been offered Pelco Spectra HDs by their rep. We've requested an Axis Q6044, whatever Bosch's and Sony's reps decide to provide and, I think, one from HIKVision (whose rep approached me). We're still open to suggestions but to be considered, PTZs will have to be able to provide at least two 30fps ONVIF streams (one TCP/IP Unicast and one Multicast). We'll be evaluating overall picture quality, frame rate, system compatibility, low light performance, ease of installation, etc. We will also inspect, as much as possible, physical construction and repairability. To give you an example of how thoroughly we approach testing, one sample (manufacturer shall remain unnamed) failed our evaluation before we even plugged the PTZ into our test setup. A physical inspection of the unit revealed many shortcomings, including an overly complex installation method that required attachment by many screws and open slip rings. Who wants to be standing at the top of a ladder trying to feed screws through the back box into a plenum box? That requires access to both sides of a ceiling tile or hard lid and juggling screws that are destined to fall and disappear on the floor. And my years of experience make me averse to non-sealed slip rings. I've had to clean or replace them too often. How big is the job to convert your network to be multicast compatible ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
survtech 0 Posted January 4, 2014 It already is. That said, IV recommends TCP/IP Unicast for recording due to its inherent stability and easier troubleshooting of the stream. While we could both record and "live view" via Multicast, we prefer (and are basically encouraged) to limit it to live viewing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ak357 0 Posted January 4, 2014 It already is. That said, IV recommends TCP/IP Unicast for recording due to its inherent stability and easier troubleshooting of the stream. While we could both record and "live view" via Multicast, we prefer (and are basically encouraged) to limit it to live viewing. How many cams do u have working ? do u like performance ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
survtech 0 Posted January 5, 2014 Right now, we have 67 IndigoVision 11000 HD cameras in operation and another 33 in stock. Performance is pretty good but not excellent. Tests of Axis P3354, P3364 and P3384 fixed dome cameras yielded somewhat better pictures but with the caveat that they were unable to provide two 30fps streams. During system evaluations, we also tested a Ganz and a Bosch fixed dome. We received the Bosch dome too late to test with IndigoVision but did test it briefly with Geutebruck. The Ganz's picture was not very good - it was noisy and had AGC issues. The Bosch locked up the VMS so that the server kept rebooting. That was not specifically a Bosch problem but an ONVIF driver issue with Geutebruck. We haven't tested any PTZs in situ yet except the one IndigoVision 9000 SD PTZ they provided. We are not terribly impressed with its performance, hence the desire to test others. We do have a trade in offer from IndigoVision which expires at the end of the month. They're offering to give us a trade in on encoders for IP PTZs. Not one-for-one but tempting if we can find an IndigoVision PTZ we like. The gist of it is that we chose IndigoVision fixed IP cameras due to their guaranteed compatibility and the limited time we had to test IP MP cameras. While the 11000 HD cameras didn't provide the best pictures during our system evaluations, they did provide more than acceptable video. Despite a few lens problems, we're pretty happy with the results. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ak357 0 Posted January 5, 2014 Right now, we have 67 IndigoVision 11000 HD cameras in operation and another 33 in stock. Performance is pretty good but not excellent. Tests of Axis P3354, P3364 and P3384 fixed dome cameras yielded somewhat better pictures but with the caveat that they were unable to provide two 30fps streams. During system evaluations, we also tested a Ganz and a Bosch fixed dome. We received the Bosch dome too late to test with IndigoVision but did test it briefly with Geutebruck. The Ganz's picture was not very good - it was noisy and had AGC issues. The Bosch locked up the VMS so that the server kept rebooting. That was not specifically a Bosch problem but an ONVIF driver issue with Geutebruck. We haven't tested any PTZs in situ yet except the one IndigoVision 9000 SD PTZ they provided. We are not terribly impressed with its performance, hence the desire to test others. We do have a trade in offer from IndigoVision which expires at the end of the month. They're offering to give us a trade in on encoders for IP PTZs. Not one-for-one but tempting if we can find an IndigoVision PTZ we like. How many servers to handle 67 cams ? what is total in/out bandwidth on average ? Thanks for info Carl Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thewireguys 3 Posted January 5, 2014 Carl do you have any experience with this box from IV? "Record up to 200 cameras per NVR with 500 Mbps data throughput, more than double the nearest alternative. " http://www.indigovision.com/nvr-as-4000 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
survtech 0 Posted January 5, 2014 How many servers to handle 67 cams ?what is total in/out bandwidth on average ? Thanks for info Carl We're connecting approximately 63 cameras per server with a mix of 2.5Mbps, 3.0Mbps and 3.5/5Mbps depending on camera application (3.5/5 is PTZs) so that works out to about 200Mbps per server. We also had to consider retention time versus storage so for the cameras we retain for 60 days we only have 13 cameras per server. MP cameras are set to stream at 4.0Mbps and their servers are handling around 47 cameras each. As we add cameras, we will determine which server to record them on by available storage. Some servers have more than enough bandwidth but not enough storage to guarantee our desired retention time. I also haven't tweaked the encoders and IP cameras yet. I will be adjusting GOP values, bitrates and other settings once retention has stabilized and I have a better handle on what we need from each camera. I don't see any need to use high bitrates to cover a drink station but may want to increase bitrates elsewhere. I'm also experimenting with GOP settings / I-frame intervals and their affect on fast playback smoothness and quantization noise. Carl do you have any experience with this box from IV? "Record up to 200 cameras per NVR with 500 Mbps data throughput, more than double the nearest alternative. " Not exactly. IndigoVision uses a range of hardware depending on the application. For casino applications, they're currently deploying Dell PowerEdge servers and PowerVault storage. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ak357 0 Posted January 5, 2014 How many servers to handle 67 cams ?what is total in/out bandwidth on average ? Thanks for info Carl We're connecting approximately 63 cameras per server with a mix of 2.5Mbps, 3.0Mbps and 3.5/5Mbps depending on camera application (3.5/5 is PTZs) so that works out to about 200Mbps per server. We also had to consider retention time versus storage so for the cameras we retain for 60 days we only have 13 cameras per server. MP cameras are set to stream at 4.0Mbps and their servers are handling around 47 cameras each. Thx again What would be your Max bandwidth limit per server ? and also You do not use IV Client at all because of Multicast right ? Do you use any type network monitoring software for servers and cameras? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
survtech 0 Posted January 5, 2014 I believe the maximum is 400Mbps but we chose the conservative route. At <200Mbps, server resource utilization is quite low: as I recall CPU load is in the 20% range and memory and network utilization are also on the low side. We are using their client. IV cannot re-distribute streams without using another set of servers named "Proxy Servers" so recording is via Unicast and the clients see the "live" Multicast streams from the encoders or IP cameras. Control of viewing stream distribution is via multicast groups. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ak357 0 Posted January 5, 2014 I believe the maximum is 400Mbps but we chose the conservative route. At <200Mbps, server resource utilization is quite low: as I recall CPU load is in the 20% range and memory and network utilization are also on the low side. We are using their client. IV cannot re-distribute streams without using another set of servers named "Proxy Servers" so recording is via Unicast and the clients see the "live" Multicast streams from the encoders or IP cameras. Control of viewing stream distribution is via multicast groups. Ok, Thx your limits and my kinda the same The only difference I have to take in account is traffic from cameras and out to Clients by the way How good is Data base structure in IV ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
survtech 0 Posted January 5, 2014 Ok, Thxyour limits and my kinda the same The only difference I have to take in account is traffic from cameras and out to Clients That is a major difference, IMO. All IV encoders and cameras can deliver multiple (up to 8, I believe) 30fps streams in any combination of TCP/IP, RDP or UDP Unicast and Multicast. Their servers don't normally have to redistribute the streams to clients due to this, except when they have to accommodate other manufacturers' single-stream-only capabilities. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thewireguys 3 Posted January 5, 2014 How many clients will you have connected? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ak357 0 Posted January 5, 2014 (edited) Ok, Thxyour limits and my kinda the same The only difference I have to take in account is traffic from cameras and out to Clients That is a major difference, IMO. All IV encoders and cameras can deliver multiple (up to 8, I believe) 30fps streams in any combination of TCP/IP, RDP or UDP Unicast and Multicast. Their servers don't normally have to redistribute the streams to clients due to this, except when they have to accommodate other manufacturers' single-stream-only capabilities. I agree and I understand Don't you think it's kinda funny that only IV use this architectures and all other "big boys" do not but on another hand your users have direct access to cameras What if user decide to "play" ,"attack" camera what will happened ? Edited January 5, 2014 by Guest Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ak357 0 Posted January 5, 2014 How many clients will you have connected? Mike its multicast He can do a lot Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thewireguys 3 Posted January 5, 2014 How many clients will you have connected? Mike its multicast He can do a lot I understand that I am interested to know how many clients. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
