Lightning / surge issue

[ssmith10pn 0]

I’m using shielded cat5 cable. I got a spool of underground cable from the local phone company. It’s the same stuff they use. Its 12 pair…I just used 8 & cut the other 4 off.

 

That cable shield has to be grounded also.

 

You need shield bond connectors.

http://objects.eanixter.com/PD332249.PDF

[westom 0]

Can you visualize bringing this knowledge & technology from what I would guess is the large institutional market to the residential market?

What we have been discussing exists on phone, cable, and satellite wires - if properly installed. For example, effective protection on the cable is a wire from their cable to your earth ground. No protector required. Industry standards and National Electrical code require this protection to exist at every home.

 

Unfortunately many satellite dish installers are not well versed in what they are required to do. For example, some installers will ground their dish to a water faucet. One actually ran a wire into a nearby flower box.

[gunwonn 0]

As stated previously it's my belief that your problem is caused by all the different(un-bonded) ground rods.

That's what I got out of it initially.

 

This is a great read:

http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf

[ssnapier 0]

I’m using shielded cat5 cable. I got a spool of underground cable from the local phone company. It’s the same stuff they use. Its 12 pair…I just used 8 & cut the other 4 off.

 

That cable shield has to be grounded also.

 

You need shield bond connectors.

http://objects.eanixter.com/PD332249.PDF

 

 

Dang man, I wish I had seen these about a year ago! I fabricated something very similar by hand out in the field... and it was NOT fun!

[ssmith10pn 0]

Dang man, I wish I had seen these about a year ago! I fabricated something very similar by hand out in the field... and it was NOT fun!

 

I used to work in Telecom under a Bicsi RCDD.

We didn't cut corners on anything!

[sugar22 0]

Well I admit I am not a 'surge protection expert' by any means, but I have been taught to make sure everything is tied to a single grounding point to avoid creating 'ground loops'. We get quite a bit of lightening activity in Wisconsin during the spring/summer months and besides direct strikes(which NOTHING is going to stop) we rarely have issues, whether its analog CCTV cams or IP/network equipment.

 

When I deal with outdoor cat5 runs:

-I use shielded cable(STP)

-I isolate the camera and cable from ground at the outdoor/camera side of the cat5 line

-I use a surge protector at the head-end which is grounded to the same point as all head-end equipment(switches/router/nvr/etc)

-This protector has served us well: http://www.l-com.com/surge-protector-indoor-high-power-10-100-base-t-shielded-cat5-lightning-surge-protector

-if incoming internet service is Cable, make sure the line is well-grounded where it enters the building. The CATV installers in my area always half-ass it. Either the ground lug is only finger tight, or even worse they will stuff the ground wire somewhere so it just *looks* like its grounded...

 

• I have Fiber Optic internet service so that was not the source of the problem.

 

• The ground system at the house was checked numerous times by the power/utility company & certified electricians. All of them said the ground at the meter base was excellent.

 

• The meter base also has a whole house surge system installed by the utility company…It’s never indicated a surge.

 

• The 275ft buried cat5/RG-45 cable was attached to POE Surge protectors within 1-2 feet of the cable leaving the earth (Camera side & POE switch side). The protectors were attached to 8’ ground rods. I used these POE surge protectors - APC PNET1GB http://www.apc.com/products/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=PNET1GB

 

• The cameras were mounted to a wood (not metal) building.

 

• The POE switch, cameras, and NVR are connected to a Pure Sine Wave UPS. This model – Cyber Power CP1500PFCLCD - http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/products/ups-systems/pfc-sinewave-series/CP1500PFCLCD.html

 

I’ve NEVER had damage to any of my other equipment (NVR, router, cameras, PC, TV’s, VOIP device, etc).

 

Just the POE ports connected to the 275ft buried cable. After replacing FIVE fried poe switches, I unhooked the cameras connected to the buried cable…I’ve not had any issues since & we’ve had some bad lightning storms.

 

Hope this helps someone not make the same costly mistakes I’ve made.

 

I would still love to know how to eliminate this issue in the future and what I did wrong??

 

So,

 

I guess I get it right with the buried cables issue; Not to go buried because only buried links are made problems;

Now my question is about the rest of your links that are ok without any issue:

1. Outdoor overheat(aerial) between two buildings/poles? what distance height!?

2. Outdoor overheat(aerial) along building's facade/eave? what distance height!?

 

Details please of your outdoor IP Camera's ethernet links without issues!

 

Awesome topic, one day probably will find the way to do it right

[ssmith10pn 0]

The only way to be 100% successful is have a non conductive link.

Fiber or wireless.

Both will have to have power at the remote location.

 

It can be done underground but it has to be done right.

Telecommunication systems are a good example of transferring data underground without lightening issues.

It still happens but rarely.

[sugar22 0]

The only way to be 100% successful is have a non conductive link.

Fiber or wireless.

Both will have to have power at the remote location.

 

It can be done underground but it has to be done right.

Telecommunication systems are a good example of transferring data underground without lightening issues.

It still happens but rarely.

 

Do you have an advice how to do it right? as Telecommunication systems

[ronwood 0]

The only way to be 100% successful is have a non conductive link.

Fiber or wireless.

Both will have to have power at the remote location.

 

It can be done underground but it has to be done right.

Telecommunication systems are a good example of transferring data underground without lightening issues.

It still happens but rarely.

 

Do you have an advice how to do it right? as Telecommunication systems

 

I would like to know too. Power at the remote location is not an option.

[sugar22 0]

The only way to be 100% successful is have a non conductive link.

Fiber or wireless.

Both will have to have power at the remote location.

 

It can be done underground but it has to be done right.

Telecommunication systems are a good example of transferring data underground without lightening issues.

It still happens but rarely.

 

Do you have an advice how to do it right? as Telecommunication systems

 

I would like to know too. Power at the remote location is not an option.

 

Nice,

 

Power at the remote location is not protecting the remote location, too;

 

Still undecided PoE Ethernet Overhead vs Underground.

 

If I go Overhead, messenger cable will help if grounded?

[spork947 0]

I've always been concerned about lightning protection. Once you start running wires outside your home things become dicey. Isn't it code to have any wire entering your home grounded? I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet but to properly bond all your grounds together you need a rod every 8 feet or so with a heavy gauge connecting them all. Anything less and you might be better off not grounding them. Is this done on most pro installs?

 

I'm also not convinced that surge protector strips do anything for you and the only logical place is at your service panel for a surge protector. I've actually read a few stories that the damage can be worse by using a surge protector that doesn't have a close ground.

 

I'm only repeating what I've heard from others that are more qualified to answer these questions. We put up these cams to protect ourselves but I'm starting to think the risk of having them outside is far greater than the possibility of them ever solving a crime. Especially when its not practical to disconnect them as cctv runs 24/7.

[ssmith10pn 0]

The only way to be 100% successful is have a non conductive link.

Fiber or wireless.

Both will have to have power at the remote location.

 

It can be done underground but it has to be done right.

Telecommunication systems are a good example of transferring data underground without lightening issues.

It still happens but rarely.

 

Do you have an advice how to do it right? as Telecommunication systems

 

Good earth ground at both ends.

Shielded cable with the shield bonded to ground at both ends and digital protectors.

 

http://www.circaent.com/telecom/products/view/301-4-6-pair-cat5e

 

http://www.1000ftcables.com/cat6-outdoor-shielded-cable.html?gclid=CMrN75SFlsMCFY08gQodsiwAww

[ssmith10pn 0]

Another way would be to pull a Shielded OSP Cat5 and a #10 Solid ground through PVC conduit 1" or larger.

Put these or similar at both ends GROUNDED.

 

http://datainterfaces.com/sp-poe-01-Ethernet-RJ45-surge-protector.aspx?gclid=CMXriemHlsMCFVU8gQodzgoAew

[jkolko 0]

All of the lightning arrestors mentioned and linked to here have a grounding lug. If the camera (and therefore lightning arrestor) is located ~100 feet from the house, to what would one attach the ground to? Attaching it to a ground rod near the camera seems to create a loop (two grounding rods in proximity to the house)... ?

 

Thanks -

[westom 0]

... to what would one attach the ground to? Attaching it to a ground rod near the camera seems to create a loop (two grounding rods in proximity to the house)... ?

The camera and house should be treated as if separate structures. Any wire that interconnects those two 'structures' should be connected to an earth ground for that 'structure'.

 

You don't just earth the camera. If the camera uses ethernet, then all eight wires in the RJ-45 connection must connect to earth via a protector. Powered from a distant low voltage power source must also must also connect low impedance to that camera's earth ground either directly or via a protector.

 

Same applies to other end of wires that enter a building. Those must also make a low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to that building's single point earth ground (at the service entrance).

 

Figure in this Tech Note demonstrates same. In that case, structures are a building and tower:

http://www.erico.com/catalog/literature/TNCR002.pdf

Any wire in any incoming cable to either 'structure' gets earthed at each structure's single point earth ground. Do same with every wire that enters building and camera.

[jkolko 0]

I'm just having trouble grocking the tactical, physical placement. This is the setup:

 

 

I'm hearing you say that I should put another Lightning Arrester between the PoE and the Existing Lightning Arrester. Conceptually, that make sense. Literally, would I screw the thing to the pole, connect one end of a copper wire to the grounding bolt on the arrester, and run the other end to the pole (and physically attach it to the pole)?

 

Thanks.

[westom 0]

Literally, would I screw the thing to the pole, connect one end of a copper wire to the grounding bolt on the arrester, and run the other end to the pole (and physically attach it to the pole)?

 

The house has an earthing electrode. You have what is called a 'house grounding wire'. That wire between 'lightning arrestor' and the critical item not shown (earthing electrode) must be low impedance. Then any surge the connects to the buried Cat6 wire or connects to the 'galvanized pole in concrete' connects to earth BEFORE entering the house. But only if every incoming Ethernet wire makes that low impedance (ie wire has no sharp bends) connection to an earth ground electrode. And only if all other incoming wires (ie telephone, AC electric, TV cable, satellite dish, dog's invisible fence, etc) also connect low impedance (ie less than 3 meters) to the same single point earth ground.

 

Unfortunately, a 'buried electric in conduit' violates that rule. So a surge (ie direct lightning strike) to 'galvanized pole in concrete' or a direct lightning strike to earth distant to the left will use a 'buried electric in conduit' to enter the house. Then go hunting for earth ground destructively via household appliances. For example, one good path might be into the house via 'breaker', into a TV via its AC electric, out the TV destructively via its HDMI port, into a TV cable box, then out to earth ground via the TV coax cable that was properly connected to (the not shown) earth ground electrode.

 

What would the uniformed assume? HDMI port was damage. So a surge must have entered on TV coax cable to be incoming to that HDMI port. Nonsense that comes from wild speculation - not learning how surges do damage. HDMI port damaged because a completely separate system (camera) was not properly earthed at both ends of the 'electric in buried conduit'. HDMI was an outgoing path to earth; not the incoming surge path.

 

Same applies to the other end. Not shown is the earth ground electrode that bonds directly to a 'galvanized pole in concrete'. Since that will act like a Franklin lightning rod. A direct strike to that 'galvanized pole in concrete' will use a 'buried electric in conduit' to connect to earth destructively. That pole must have, at minimum, a ten foot copper clad rod driven into earth with a low impedance (ie hardwire has no splices; is connected by properly selected connectors for use with copper and aluminum) connection. Called the "galvanized pole in concrete's single point earth ground".

 

Also not found is a connection from each ethernet wire to that 'galvanized pole in concretes' single point earth ground. Every wire that enters the structure called 'galvanzied pole in concrete' must first connect to that single point earth ground (each wire connects low impedance via a protector).

 

Now, safety code says a 'buried electric in conduit' must only connect to one earth ground. That would the the house's earth ground. So the safety ground wire at a 'galvanized pole in concrete' technically should not connect to the pole and its single point earth ground. That is a safety code requirement. However we need anything powered by the home's AC power to make a safety ground connection back to the home's 'breaker' box safety ground so an AC electric fault will trip that breaker (rather than kill a human). So we must connect that 'buried wire in conduit' safety ground directly to a 'galvanized pole in concrete' so that pole will not become electrically hot - a threat to human life.

 

Just like at the house, every wire incoming to that 'galvanized pole in concrete' must make a low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to that pole's single point earth ground BEFORE rising up to connect to the camera. That connection would be a hardwire (for safety ground and metallic conduit) or protectors (for AC hot wire, AC neutral wire, and all eight ethernet wires).

 

If any wire does not make that single point earth ground connection, then a direct lightning strike (to the house, to telephone wires down the street, or to earth distant to the right) may use the the house 'breaker', 'buried ethernet' or 'electric in buried cable' to enter the camera. Then destructively exit the camera to earth via a 'galvanized pole in concrete'.

 

Notice that any distant lightning strike to earth is also a direct connection to the 'electric wire in buried conduit' and a to 'buried Cat 6 in conduit'. Being buried means lightning can still connect to those wires.

 

In every case, is it always about the path from a cloud (or other surge source) to earth. Any wire entering either structure must make a low impedance (ie wire not inside conduit) connection to single point earth ground electrode before entering.

 

Demonstrated are many paths that will cause damage because your picture violates that rule multiple times.

[jkolko 0]

Very informative.

 

What would your suggestion be to fix this?

[westom 0]

Very informative.

 

What would your suggestion be to fix this?

A good ethernet protector has RJ-45 jacks and a ground wire. That connects each ethernet wire low impedance to earth via that ground wire.

 

Conduits must connect firmly at each end to the house and galvanized pole's single point earth ground - a hardwire typically 6 AWG.

 

AC electric needs a 'whole house' protector. For the house, that must be rated at least 50,000 amps. A smaller 'whole house' protector would be on AC power at the pole.

 

Most critical part of this protection system is the quality of and connection to what is actually doing protection. What is harmlessly absorbing energy. Single point earth ground electrode. If the soil is conductive and monolithic, then one ten foot earth ground rod at the galvanized pole (that human safety codes also require) should be sufficient.

 

If the 'electric wire in buried conduit' enters at the service entrance and make a direct connection to the breaker box (which has a properly earthed 'whole house' protector), then your picture now changes to show that electric wire connected low impedance to earth.