Car Vandalism- See Pictures of house for suggestions

[Jasper 0]

05 lux is a good rating for a camera in dimly lit areas, but not really dark. You would definitely need some type of illumination coming from somewhere in order to see your van. There is a big difference between .1 and .05 lux. I tried to look at your photos again,. But I saw a cute dog instead.

 

I don’t know what you and Thomas discussed, but he definitely can help you in regards to his recommendations to your situation.

[surf1div1 0]

))) Thanks Jasper- under photo's pick home exterior. That picture was my dog (recently deceased due to cancer). I'm pretty much going with the pc based for the DVR vs the standalone.

 

05 lux is a good rating for a camera in dimly lit areas, but not really dark. You would definitely need some type of illumination coming from somewhere in order to see your van. There is a big difference between .1 and .05 lux. I tried to look at your photos again,. But I saw a cute dog instead.

 

I don’t know what you and Thomas discussed, but he definitely can help you in regards to his recommendations to your situation.

[Jasper 0]

I can barely make out your van in that night shot. It is almost totally blended into the dark. Since it is dark it is not even able to reflect much light back towards a camera. At night you would need the lowest lux camera you can find unless you can get some high powered IR that will reach the van.

 

Then unless you are zoomed intot the scene you are not going to be able to identify the person, only know that someone messed with it. Also you are in the same situation that I was in by only being able to see one side of the van.

 

You are still going to have that blind spot and without the ability to identify the person you will only see a body coming up to the other side of the van, because I would assume they would avoid the street side anyway.

 

Tough application there.

[rory 0]

some image editing ... basically a BW cam should do okay there, will see much more than we are seeing in the regular camera image, and also an Exview will see much better ... basically the truck area will probably be very good with a BW camera, the black vehicle area is very dark, at least using the supplied image ...

 

Original Image.

 

Negative Image - dark denotes Light source.

 

Other shots - Histograms

Edited February 21, 2006 by Guest

[surf1div1 0]

Thanks Jasper for your feedback-I knew this was going to be a tough issue because of the distance from the house, and the inability to see both sides of the car. I was hoping that the ambient light would help with some of the better cams- from what your telling me it's going to be limited, but at leat I know my limitations. I was hoping that their is a cam though that would be able to ID someone if they did something. The last time they drove by and threw something through their window and hit the car- in that situation I'm not sure that a cam would of helped since the best I would of gotten was the car make. Possibly I should just right off the ability to even monitor the car, and focus on the house. The car, is only worth a couple of thousand dollars but has the utility which is why we keep it. As tough as it is to accpet, it may be that without a lot of resources in equipment for the one camera, it may behove me to just focus on the vehicles in the driveway(motorhome) and monitor the house up to the street level based on what your stating. I'm open- as I said, I don't mind investing in the right equipment for the one camera but it may be an issue if they do go behind the car to do their vandalism. Optimally the cams would be as discreet as possible. But, based on the mm needed to close in and ID them, it might also be VERY limited. I really appreciate the feedback everyone that has participated in this thread has given. You guys are to commended on helping out and supporting the end users like me.

 

Arnold

I can barely make out your van in that night shot. It is almost totally blended into the dark. Since it is dark it is not even able to reflect much light back towards a camera. At night you would need the lowest lux camera you can find unless you can get some high powered IR that will reach the van.

 

Then unless you are zoomed intot the scene you are not going to be able to identify the person, only know that someone messed with it. Also you are in the same situation that I was in by only being able to see one side of the van.

 

You are still going to have that blind spot and without the ability to identify the person you will only see a body coming up to the other side of the van, because I would assume they would avoid the street side anyway.

 

Tough application there.

[Jasper 0]

Rory,

 

That first shot you show indicates that there is hardly any light at all around the van. And if he zooms towards the van he will have even less light gathering ability because the light will not fall within his field of view, correct?

 

If he uses small mm lens and gathers more light he then will only be able to monitor the area and still cannot identify who a person is or see on the other side of the van.

 

I like how you do that with the images. Pretty neat. Are you using Paint Shop pro for that?

[rory 0]

Gotta remember he was using a high lux camera for that shot ... but yes the more you zoom in, less light will be let through the lens to the camera.

Definately something like an Exview and f:1.0 or lower lens will help.

Also setting the view to get some of the light in from the building will also help as it uses all available light and spreads that over the image.

 

Id like to know which vehicle he is aiming for, makes a huge difference.

 

Yes thats PSP.

[Jasper 0]

That Dark Van is his I beleive. The one that shows up all white in your photograph indicating no light reflection by what you said.

 

He has no street light near the van either. I use a .05 lux, non Exview camera in front of my place and there is a street light directly across from my house and that camera still pixelizes a little bit, but I can see a pretty good image.

 

What black and white camera with what lux rating do you think would work to see that van? f1.0 with with what type of camera? And the camera would be pretty useless during the day wouldn't it?

[rory 0]

that one will be tough without additional lighting.

 

here is the van:

 

[Jasper 0]

No. That is a truck parked in front of his van.

 

The van is parked right behind it and it is dark. It is even worse than that.

[rory 0]

he needs to change parking spaces and perhaps paint the van a brighter color

[Jasper 0]

 

I don't think that is an option. Especially since he said it is only worth a couple thousand dollars.

[surf1div1 0]

Hi Rory, and Jasper- actually it's the blue van you've zoomed in the prior shot- it's the one in navy inbetween the two cars. The first has some street lighting on it, and mine (in the middle) has almost none). It's a Ford Aerostar . Just behind it is the while truck your picking up (but only the front part of it. Distance from where the cam would be mounted to seeing "past " the car is about 70'.

 

that one will be tough without additional lighting.

 

here is the van:

 

[Jasper 0]

In your pictures during the day somebody was parked in front of your mail box. Why can you just park there? The mail man can get out of his car can't he? Is there some type of law or something?

 

Then you can have your motion light come on. I had it setup that way. So what if the light comes on everytime somebody walks by the house. At least they know if they come on your property they will be lit up.

[rory 0]

What you could do is try a BW Exview or Day Night Exview Camera.

 

If it is still too dark, then would need to add IR or Lighting.

If IR i would say a UF100 would definatelty do it and pick up the person once zoomed in on the van and with some IR adjustments.

Though I would double check with Extreme first. Plus, they arent cheap, they require a proprietory power supply.

 

Rory

[surf1div1 0]

Hi Jasper- good question- that was my other car parked in front on a weekend. The problem as your probably aware is that here, in Simi Valley, if your car is parked for over 3 days they ticket you. So I would end up moving it every 3 days- a hassle. The mailman you know would report it to make his job easier. I thought about it and the compromise is parking it acrsso the street. Rory- what are we talking about cost why for the Ex-View setup on this one camera? Is there a good day/night- since this camera is also covering the west side of my property, I would prefer the color during the day and b/w during the night. The issue you raise Rory is that to get ID that would REQUIRE a zoomed in feature. That presents another issue- I would lose coverage of my property(west) unless I mounted a second cam facing more west to cover that area, unless I go for one of those COVI cam's that woull me to zoom in that one part(the van) and still have coverage for the other parts that a normal cam would cover. The problem with that one is the additional expense of using their proprietary computer (Covi's)- I think possibly a duo cam for the west of the prop is going to have to be used to get decent coverage. Sure, you could use a high zoom, ex-view, b/w but than I'm losing coverage of whoever comes on to the property from the vest. As that beatle once said, "It ain't Easy". ;-0

 

In your pictures during the day somebody was parked in front of your mail box. Why can you just park there? The mail man can get out of his car can't he? Is there some type of law or something?

 

Then you can have your motion light come on. I had it setup that way. So what if the light comes on everytime somebody walks by the house. At least they know if they come on your property they will be lit up.

[Jasper 0]

You can't have it both ways with one camera. You either have to have it zoomed in and be able to identify a person, which you still have the other side of the van not covered. Or you can leaved it zoomed out and be able to monitor your property.

 

You could have it both ways by buying a camera that costs as much as what the van is worth, but that kinda defeats the whole purpose. I had that same problem with my truck being parked in front of the house. A city worker started coming by and marking my tires. I would start the truck and move it a few inches. Then I would move my truck to another spot for about a week and then they left me alone. Maybe you should do a combination of the both?

 

If the van is sitting right in front of your house you will have a bigger detterent factor and be able to see it better and your property at the same time. Also what about a car alarm, so if anybody touches the van it alarms?

[cachecreekcctv 0]

I have a similiar problem as his van , parking across the street. In fact, the two times my neighbors' pickup was broken into, I had the hoodlums on video. Mainly, it was my Pelco b/w with the Exview CCD (of course the new IR LED's helped). I put my IR right on my neighbors' pickup, looked light daylight!! Helped to identify local (two blocks away) hoodlums. Look into an IR floodlight !!

[surf1div1 0]

Hi Cache- man, would we love to catch these idiots...whenever I go to open the car, the alarm beeps three times letting me know that the alarm went off. Anyway, guess what- the guy that has been monopolizing that parking spot (the SUV parked in front of mine) wasn't there (after what- a year?) anyway, I pulled my van to within 10 feet of that fire hydrant. I plan on taking a picture if needed, but thought based on the previoius shot would I need IR based on the illumination that is currently available?

 

Arnold

 

I have a similiar problem as his van , parking across the street. In fact, the two times my neighbors' pickup was broken into, I had the hoodlums on video. Mainly, it was my Pelco b/w with the Exview CCD (of course the new IR LED's helped). I put my IR right on my neighbors' pickup, looked light daylight!! Helped to identify local (two blocks away) hoodlums. Look into an IR floodlight !!

[cachecreekcctv 0]

I had a spare housing/camera combo , so I did a favor for my neighbor last year. The camera lens was a 2.8-10mm AI lens, so I just turned it up to zoom in (across the street) on their pickup. Directed one of my IR floods at the pickup for a week or so. Had good video of teenagers breaking into the neighbors truck. It did help, though, as my two other cameras on the front, both using 2.8mm AI lens, to see where the troublemakers came from, and where they went after breaking into the truck. That made a lot of difference, as they had been walking by his truck every night at around midnight, coming from the same direction every time. I made a video CD for the neighbor and he recognized the pair of thieves as neighborhood kids.

[Jasper 0]

Sounds like you are really determined to get these people on camera so you’re going to have to throw more money at the problem. In your first post you mentioned $1000 for 4 cameras. This could be adequate if you were not trying to solve this problem at the same time.

 

You are going to need some strong IR to reach the van and illuminate that area enough to capture a person on video. So maybe what you should do is temporarily use your cameras to eliminate this problem then return them to their intended permanent mounting positions. Otherwise I see you are going to have to spend more money.

 

Strong IR is not cheap. You will need a camera zoomed in on the van to allow ID of a persons face. Another camera or two with wide angle lens in order to see where they are coming from and going to, just as was described in the previous post.

 

It sounds like you really just want to get these guys. Are you willing to pay the price though? You can get them, but it will cost you for the equipment. And if you do get them will there be retaliation if you prosecute them? Is the damage they are inflicting really worth it? These are all questions you have to ask yourself.

 

Oh, the higher wattage bulb in your motion detector is probably not going to work as you would have to blind the drivers passing by in order to have strong enough light to illuminate the area accross the street?

[surf1div1 0]

Hi Jasper-

I'm going to answer within your response...

 

Sounds like you are really determined to get these people on camera so you’re going to have to throw more money at the problem. In your first post you mentioned $1000 for 4 cameras. This could be adequate if you were not trying to solve this problem at the same time.

 

OK- tell me if this is more realistic: for hardware, camera's and PC DVR for around 3K. This amounts to one high end day/night cam, four bullet cams that are decent quality and the PC DVR that Tom's associated with- yes, that's a good 3X the budget Jasper, but I'm not sure where the 1K quote came from- possibly from just four decent cams.

 

 

You are going to need some strong IR to reach the van and illuminate that area enough to capture a person on video. So maybe what you should do is temporarily use your cameras to eliminate this problem then return them to their intended permanent mounting positions. Otherwise I see you are going to have to spend more money.

 

Don't want IR- I would rather go for a higher end camera then deal with that or use motion detector to illuminate the area with the floodlights if needed.

 

Strong IR is not cheap. You will need a camera zoomed in on the van to allow ID of a persons face. Another camera or two with wide angle lens in order to see where they are coming from and going to, just as was described in the previous post.

 

It sounds like you really just want to get these guys. Are you willing to pay the price though? You can get them, but it will cost you for the equipment. And if you do get them will there be retaliation if you prosecute them? Is the damage they are inflicting really worth it? These are all questions you have to ask yourself.

 

They've been arrested- once- warrant out and no retaaliation- yet. But that is what the cameras will be for- if and when they decide to do what they're going to do, now I'll have a record of it. Yes, I've already prosecuted- one has an outstanding warrant out for him. Damage worth it? Well, either I let someone mess with me or I don't. Since I have to do this the legal way this is the route I'm taking- beside I have a family to care for and that peace of mind is worth it. Would I stop prosecuting as a result of intimidation- well, you don't know me- but suffice to say- NO.

 

Oh, the higher wattage bulb in your motion detector is probably not going to work as you would have to blind the drivers passing by in order to have strong enough light to illuminate the area accross the street?

 

The light would not blind- they're heading West/East- the light would be coming from the North. No blinding. IR I'm not sold on , yet I'll consider it but would prefer it to be motion activated- I believe that's an option, but those illuminators might be pricey- who know what those cost-

 

Anyway, thanks Jasper- I believe that it's worth it to me- I've been on this board for about a year, and I'm not going anywhere until I find what I'm looking for- I'm taking my time since this bozo hasn't been arrested yet- when he is, the warrant will mean I'm called into court and I'm going. Then I won't have any time. It will be one of those I need it NOW.

 

Arnold

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[rory 0]

either a GE KTC-2000DN (Day Night Exview Box Camera) or a GE KTC-540 (B/W Exview Box Camera) .. or similar, once its exview.

 

You will need a lens that you can manually zoom in, I would say a 5-50mm to be safe but then you loose lighting capabilities with those, as they are generally F:1.3 and the more you zoom the lens, the less light passes into the camera. I think it maybe your only choice though, a GE, Computar, Fujinon, Tamron 5-50mm - they are typically all the same as far as F: stop. If you want to use or will want to use IR thats a different story alltogether, but it doesnt seem you do.

 

I would normally use my ViewFinder, then I could determine which Fixed Lens you can use, instead of a Varifocal Lens. I dont know where the car is now so cant say, but if you send me a photo I can make an estimated lens distance. OR, need the distance to the FOV from the camera, and the width of the FOV, then can use a Lens Calculator. Since its a pretty far distance, using a Fixed lens will be a better choice for low light, off hand I would estimate it around 16-25mm but then again depends how much of the vehicle you want to see.

 

If you have a chance, get one of the Computar/Ganz ViewFinders.

 

Rory

[Cooperman 0]

I vaguely remember a figure of 70 feet distance being mentioned earlier on. If the vehicle is parked at that distance from the camera, I agree with rory that perhaps a 25mm fixed lens would be the lens of choice for a 1/3" format camera.

 

At that distance, a 6 footer should occupy about 60% of the picture height, and a 13 - 14' long vehicle will probably fill the screen (no idea how long your vehicles are stateside). If you need more width, then a 16mm will be the obvious choice (about 20' width at 70 feet distance).

 

If you go for a very sensitive camera, then a decent tungsten halogen light source should throw out more than enough light to produce a decent image at that distance (in B/W mode).

 

Keep the camera covert though, for all the reasons mentioned so far.

[surf1div1 0]

Your right Cooperman-it is,but now that I moved it further east- i.e. more in line with the front of the house- it's probably now 65'- but at that distance, I doubt that it would change the lens enough since the point is to have enough 'scope' to id whoever is doing it (we know, but now we want to be able to confirm it and "catch them in the act" for posterity . Now, I would be consistent if I didn't leave with something here, so here goes- I've asked this before, but you've raised it with your last comment- as Rory as so gracisouly pointed out different setup's is there something that can be a covert with that range- am I assuming not? If no, then what do the pros do where someone like me want's it covert but then needs a big lens to zoom in without it? Is it possible to get a lens that is fixed but in a bullet with the kinds of lens you've referenced? As far as light- I'll have to change out the 100 watt bulb on the one front UNLESS there's a way to use the IR but with a photocell, and only with motion detection. Do you guys have a way to work the IR (yes Rory, I really don't want IR, but if it will be only come on with motion detection, then possibly it would work) but it just seems like something else to be dependent on that could break, etc. I think what I want they just don't make- namely a small footprint, without IR, a low enough lux rating to work and virtually invisible to all but those who know it's there. As an example- just got back from "Coldstone Creamery" and above the cash register was a 'lipstick' cam- so discrete you hardly notice it. Sure the FOV is only what 5' but I'm thinking with the technology that exists we could put it together. BTW- I like the latter- 16MM for the width.

 

Thanks-

Arnold

 

I vaguely remember a figure of 70 feet distance being mentioned earlier on. If the vehicle is parked at that distance from the camera, I agree with rory that perhaps a 25mm fixed lens would be the lens of choice for a 1/3" format camera.

 

At that distance, a 6 footer should occupy about 60% of the picture height, and a 13 - 14' long vehicle will probably fill the screen (no idea how long your vehicles are stateside). If you need more width, then a 16mm will be the obvious choice (about 20' width at 70 feet distance).

 

If you go for a very sensitive camera, then a decent tungsten halogen light source should throw out more than enough light to produce a decent image at that distance (in B/W mode).

 

Keep the camera covert though, for all the reasons mentioned so far.