NVR vs Software Based NVR long run power usage!

[bradyboyy88 0]

Hi,

 

I plan to help my friend install 2 3mp or up ip cameras. He wants to record video at various times so I am deciding whether or not a nvr is best or just use his computer. He has an i5 4670k computer which has space to store video but I dont know how I feel about running it 24/7. The software I was thinking about using was blueiris and the cameras were possibly the Hikvision DS-2CD2132-I . I may be paranoid but I worry that the computers lifespan will be decreased tremendously if kept on for months at a time recording where as nvrs are designed too(I would assume). Maybe there might even be a setting in windows or blue iris which allow computer to record in a low power mode (if possible that would be great and if not any other software that might)??

 

Power usage of pc can range anywhere from 50watts all the way to 250watts for something standard like this which is why its hard for me to decide given the specs I saw on a nvr stated around 30w with harddrive.

 

Any advice would be appreciated !

 

Thanks

[Boogieman 1]

Hi,

 

I plan to help my friend install 2 3mp or up ip cameras. He wants to record video at various times so I am deciding whether or not a nvr is best or just use his computer. He has an i5 4670k computer which has space to store video but I dont know how I feel about running it 24/7. The software I was thinking about using was blueiris and the cameras were possibly the Hikvision DS-2CD2132-I . I may be paranoid but I worry that the computers lifespan will be decreased tremendously if kept on for months at a time recording where as nvrs are designed too(I would assume). Maybe there might even be a setting in windows or blue iris which allow computer to record in a low power mode (if possible that would be great and if not any other software that might)??

 

Power usage of pc can range anywhere from 50watts all the way to 250watts for something standard like this which is why its hard for me to decide given the specs I saw on a nvr stated around 30w with harddrive.

 

Any advice would be appreciated !

 

Thanks

You need to hook the pc up to a killawatt meter under load to determine how much power its going to use. Couple of things, first, the 4670k is haswell which have low power consumption. Do not over clock it. Do not use a discrete card, use the onboard video this will save lots of power.

I have had i5 ivybridge systems measure 18w at idle and 35-70 under load depending on how much load I placed on it, but every system is different. You will have lots more options with software vs nvr, but nvrs are generally more stable and less power hungry...

As far as life, I have a few systems that have been running Blue iris 24/7 for well over two years with zero issues...

[bradyboyy88 0]

So despite they have been on 24/7 you havent had any harddrive failure or fans blow their bearings and start to squeel?

 

I am aware how power efficient haswell is which is a plus but I have never kept my computer on for more than a day because of paranoia lol. So have you ever tested those pc's to find out what the overall power usage from the wall is?

 

In regards to an nvr, can you think of any reliable ones that are under 250 bucks with poe and supports up to 4 hikivision cameras? Also, I have never used an nvr but can you access its settings via its ip address in a browser vs hooking up to a monitor.

 

I was also curious about using a NAS. I have never used a NAS but I was wondering if most cameras can support streaming straight to one? I know they are fairly cheap which is why I ask.

[buellwinkle 0]

What happens with consumer grade PCs is not that it's on 24/7, some may even argue that it's less load on the electronics to to run continuously, it's that if the CPU load becomes significant, say over 50% it will generate more heat and make the CPU fan run faster and that's what may kill it sooner. Also the heat & vibration from the hard drive may short component life. Actually what I find kills PCs the most is when fan bearings start degrading, the additional vibrations can wreak havoc on other stuff. If you hear a fan start making noise, don't wait for it to fail before replacing it.

 

But look at it this way, say it lasts 3-4 years before something breaks, not really a big deal, many times you can go online or a local Fry's or Microcenter get a new CPU fan, power supply or a new hard drive and fix it yourself and even if you can't, they have geeks to help you or pay them to fix it.

 

A PC as an NVR means it's not only on 24/7, it can't go into any sleep mode, power saving mode, The screen can shut off, but not the hard drive or the CPU can go into a power saving mode.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Guest

[drocer 0]

So despite they have been on 24/7 you havent had any harddrive failure or fans blow their bearings and start to squeel?

 

I am aware how power efficient haswell is which is a plus but I have never kept my computer on for more than a day because of paranoia lol. So have you ever tested those pc's to find out what the overall power usage from the wall is?

 

In regards to an nvr, can you think of any reliable ones that are under 250 bucks with poe and supports up to 4 hikivision cameras? Also, I have never used an nvr but can you access its settings via its ip address in a browser vs hooking up to a monitor.

 

I was also curious about using a NAS. I have never used a NAS but I was wondering if most cameras can support streaming straight to one? I know they are fairly cheap which is why I ask.

 

 

 

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7003/the-haswell-review-intel-core-i74770k-i54560k-tested/2

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/core-i7-4770k-haswell-review,3521-18.html

 

Haswell has the lowest idle power, but an NVR system will never be completely 100% idle. Ivy Bridge actually has lower power consumption when working but is a tiny, insignificant amount "slower."

 

For a NAS, the DS412+ uses 44W. That's loaded with WD Green drives that will die in NAS that is used for NVR purposes. Load it up with RED or Blue WD drives and the power consumption goes up.

vs

i7 or i5 PC with <30% load is likely only 50-70W.

 

Your IP camera's will be 5W/7W (day/night) * x cameras for 24 hours a day. For me, my hikvision camera's eat more power than my i7 does.

 

1. You can drop power usage by getting a better PSU. 80 Plus bronze or better will improve efficiency of the PSU i.e. from a crap PSU to a 80plus Gold can be greater than 10W.
   
2. Remove any dGPU. It's compete a waste.
   
3. Unplug everything you don't need, like the CDROM drive.
   
4. You want to use hardware motion control in the camera to reduce the load on the CPU. Blue Iris is software. More load, more power, more heat = all bad. ivms-4200, xprotect go, or axxon next is what you want for hardware motion control with hikvision.

[pcmcg 0]

Right now I'm leaning towards an Intel NUC system. 7W idle, 27W fully loaded. I'm guessing it will average around the 15 to 20W mark.

[bradyboyy88 0]

Thanks for all the great replies. I actually built the pc so I am not new to computer tech in regards to pc components but unfortunately I am paranoid and the computer is not going to be at my house but instead at my computer illiterate coworkers house lol.

 

So from what I feel like most are getting at is that software offers more and a pc generates almost the same given its parts compared to that of an nvr which is more restricted in power usage.

 

I actually thought about the intel nuc for a split second but thought a Dual-core i3-3217U might not cut it and that unit is the best performance per dollar I could find at around 180 bucks on ebay last time I checked. Do you think this ulv cpu could handle recording 4 streams from a 5mp ip camera at 1080p resolution? How about recording and monitoring via blue iris simultaneously?

 

I was also curious about cameras. I purchased 2 geovision mfd130 models and their picture was not very clear at 1.3mp. So for testing purposes and a friends house I purchased 3 hikivision DS-2CD2132-I cameras for $160 each which were great quality but I was still not satisfied with the camera picture quality in the regards that you could not recognize someone more than 20ft away or read a license plate. These were 3mp cameras and I thought that was enough but I guess not. I figured megapixels was the most important part of getting a clear image so now I guess I might have to go up to 5mp or even higher? Do you guys have any suggestions on the best ip cameras for less than 250 which have infrared and possibly ptz?

Edited February 11, 2014 by Guest

[bradyboyy88 0]

 

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7003/the-haswell-review-intel-core-i74770k-i54560k-tested/2

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/core-i7-4770k-haswell-review,3521-18.html

 

For a NAS, the DS412+ uses 44W. That's loaded with WD Green drives that will die in NAS that is used for NVR purposes. Load it up with RED or Blue WD drives and the power consumption goes up.

vs

i7 or i5 PC with <30% load is likely only 50-70W.

 

Your IP camera's will be 5W/7W (day/night) * x cameras for 24 hours a day. For me, my hikvision camera's eat more power than my i7 does.

 

1. You can drop power usage by getting a better PSU. 80 Plus bronze or better will improve efficiency of the PSU i.e. from a crap PSU to a 80plus Gold can be greater than 10W.
   
2. Remove any dGPU. It's compete a waste.
   
3. Unplug everything you don't need, like the CDROM drive.
   
4. You want to use hardware motion control in the camera to reduce the load on the CPU. Blue Iris is software. More load, more power, more heat = all bad. ivms-4200, xprotect go, or axxon next is what you want for hardware motion control with hikvision.

 

Yea i agree. I need to get rid of all those unneccessary parts. FOr power management you would use those nvr software over blue iris? What about without power usage in play?

[buellwinkle 0]

Don't sell an i3 short. I use an i3-540 (1st generation) and right now I have 8 cameras on it, 1 10MP camera, 4 3MP cameras, 1 2MP camera and 2 1.3MP cameras recording with Milestone and it's using about 20% CPU. A new Haswell i3 has to be much faster, maybe twice as fast as mine. Heck, the Celerons are faster like the G2030.

 

I wish they made a PC out of the new Atom processor, the Z3770, Baytrail, that is a nice highly power efficient processor but I heard they are afraid it may canobolize the i3-i5 market so it's sold for tablets only. I'm running windows 8.1 on one and it's pretty fast.

[drocer 0]

...

 

Yea i agree. I need to get rid of all those unneccessary parts. FOr power management you would use those nvr software over blue iris? What about without power usage in play?

 

I'm in the final few days of testing NVR software. I have firefox and Axxon Next (with client open) running. I'm hitting 3% CPU usage (8 cams * 2.1MP @ 30fps). That is what hardware motion record does. Blue Iris under the same settings is 35-45%.

[drocer 0]

Thanks for all the great replies. I actually built the pc so I am not new to computer tech in regards to pc components but unfortunately I am paranoid and the computer is not going to be at my house but instead at my computer illiterate coworkers house lol.

 

So from what I feel like most are getting at is that software offers more and a pc generates almost the same given its parts compared to that of an nvr which is more restricted in power usage.

 

I actually thought about the intel nuc for a split second but thought a Dual-core i3-3217U might not cut it and that unit is the best performance per dollar I could find at around 180 bucks on ebay last time I checked. Do you think this ulv cpu could handle recording 4 streams from a 5mp ip camera at 1080p resolution? How about recording and monitoring via blue iris simultaneously?

 

I was also curious about cameras. I purchased 2 geovision mfd130 models and their picture was not very clear at 1.3mp. So for testing purposes and a friends house I purchased 3 hikivision DS-2CD2132-I cameras for $160 each which were great quality but I was still not satisfied with the camera picture quality in the regards that you could not recognize someone more than 20ft away or read a license plate. These were 3mp cameras and I thought that was enough but I guess not. I figured megapixels was the most important part of getting a clear image so now I guess I might have to go up to 5mp or even higher? Do you guys have any suggestions on the best ip cameras for less than 250 which have infrared and possibly ptz?

 

At what frame rate? Tons of people on here think 1-5fps (but higher MP) is okay. IMHO, <25fps is worthless.

 

For the ULV / NUC's, I would evaluate the frame rate you think is acceptable. 25-30fps killed a non-hyperthreading i3 (pentium):

 

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=39387

 

So you need to decide:

software vs hardware motion recording

+

frame rate

 

__________________

You should be able to identify things with 3MP even at distance. Were you capturing at 3MP with the highest bitrate and encoding? You should be buying a vari-focal, PTZ, or just a longer fixed lens.

 

4mm@ F2.0, Angle of view: 79°

(2.8mm, 6mm, 12mm optional)

[bradyboyy88 0]

 

At what frame rate? Tons of people on here think 1-5fps (but higher MP) is okay. IMHO, <25fps is worthless.

 

For the ULV / NUC's, I would evaluate the frame rate you think is acceptable. 25-30fps killed a non-hyperthreading i3 (pentium):

 

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=39387

 

So you need to decide:

software vs hardware motion recording

+

frame rate

 

__________________

You should be able to identify things with 3MP even at distance. Were you capturing at 3MP with the highest bitrate and encoding? You should be buying a vari-focal, PTZ, or just a longer fixed lens.

 

4mm@ F2.0, Angle of view: 79°

(2.8mm, 6mm, 12mm optional)

 

I am using the 2.8mm lense. I was also using h.264 encoding to save space but I am not sure what the bitrate settings are. In fact I do not even know how to check the bitrate settings lol. The wider the lens the less clear the image is though? I was going for viewing angle but if that means sacrificing good clearity I could give up a few degrees haha

[drocer 0]

 

At what frame rate? Tons of people on here think 1-5fps (but higher MP) is okay. IMHO, <25fps is worthless.

 

For the ULV / NUC's, I would evaluate the frame rate you think is acceptable. 25-30fps killed a non-hyperthreading i3 (pentium):

 

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=39387

 

So you need to decide:

software vs hardware motion recording

+

frame rate

 

__________________

You should be able to identify things with 3MP even at distance. Were you capturing at 3MP with the highest bitrate and encoding? You should be buying a vari-focal, PTZ, or just a longer fixed lens.

 

4mm@ F2.0, Angle of view: 79°

(2.8mm, 6mm, 12mm optional)

 

I am using the 2.8mm lense. I was also using h.264 encoding to save space but I am not sure what the bitrate settings are. In fact I do not even know how to check the bitrate settings lol. The wider the lens the less clear the image is though? I was going for viewing angle but if that means sacrificing good clearity I could give up a few degrees haha

 

There are online lens calcs to help you. 2.8mm is more for just monitoring vs capturing license plates at a distance. You may look into trying to swap them out.

 

Bitrate is just the quality of the encode. It's usually set on medium but maybe locked for 3MP capture mode. Regardless 3MP, highest bitrate/encoding level, and even @ 20ft should get you something reasonable. If not, you need a larger lens, varifocal, or PTZ with huge optical zoom.

[MaxIcon 0]

How it works out depends on your goals and your budget.

 

My setup, which is similar to what a lot of people use, is like this:

 

- Wide angle cams that monitor the area. Hik 2032 with 3.6mm lens is good for this, though you have to watch the FOV with this cam, since 2MP gives a wider view than 3MP.

 

I use 2 of them to watch the front of the house, and they work well for that, but on the street, plates are unreadable and faces are recognizable if you know the person, but you wouldn't be able to convince a judge to convict someone with the footage.

 

Likewise, if I wanted to read plates on the street, I'd need a couple more cams with long zooms that could see the street at plate level under a wide variety of lighting conditions. With my layout, they'd risk being blocked by cars parked on the street. Good plate reads in a residential single home setting is a challenge.

 

- Cams that give a higher pixel per foot view of key areas - doors, gates, and other choke points. I've got one on the front door and one watching the driveway, giving less coverage than the wide view cams but lots more detail.

 

Sometimes you can kill 2 birds with one stone. One of my back yard cams is mounted such that it gives a good hi-res close-up of the back door and still covers 1/3 of the back yard.

 

It'll all depend on your layout and how many cams you want to run.

[bradyboyy88 0]

Docer I noticed you said 2mp gives a wider fov than 3mp. maybe I am misunderstanding what megapixels is but I thought it was how pixels in the given resolution hence more detail. So why would this effect fov and if it did why doesnt 3mp have a higher fov than 2?

 

Sorry if this is a dumb question but I am new to this stuff!

[MaxIcon 0]

Not a dumb question, just a Hik 2032 quirk. I don't know if their other 3MP cams do this.

 

For some reason, the 2032 either upscales the 1080P or downscales the 3MP image; hard to know which without digging into their software.

 

If the cam was using direct pixel viewing, you'd expect the 1080p image to be a subset of the 3MP image, since the 3MP has more pixels in both directions, but on the 2032, you get a wider image in 1080p than in 3MP.

 

This isn't necessarily a problem unless you expect it to work the way many other cams, like Dahua, do. As long as you're aware of the limitation, it's fine. I chose the 3MP Hiks over the equivalent Dahua, despite this, because it's a better camera overall, IMO.

 

Here's a post that shows the differences.

viewtopic.php?p=235644#p235644

[varascope 0]

Docer I noticed you said 2mp gives a wider fov than 3mp. maybe I am misunderstanding what megapixels is but I thought it was how pixels in the given resolution hence more detail. So why would this effect fov and if it did why doesnt 3mp have a higher fov than 2?

 

Sorry if this is a dumb question but I am new to this stuff!

 

@Docer

What is your sensor size on each?

what is your lens size on each?

[drocer 0]

Docer I noticed you said 2mp gives a wider fov than 3mp. maybe I am misunderstanding what megapixels is but I thought it was how pixels in the given resolution hence more detail. So why would this effect fov and if it did why doesnt 3mp have a higher fov than 2?

 

Sorry if this is a dumb question but I am new to this stuff!

 

That was MaxIcon not me.

 

For you I would look at different lens as I stated. e.g. imagine buying a digital point and shoot camera with only digital zoom.

[MaxIcon 0]

Per the specs:

The Hik 2032 has a 1/3" sensor and a 4mm lens.

The Dahua has a 1/2.8" sensor and a 3.3mm - 12mm varifocal, though other Dahua models, like the fixed lens 4300S also appear to do direct pixel sampling at the highest resolutions.

 

Lens size doesn't matter, since the number of pixels is the same regardless, but it will affect field of view, which often doesn't match the vendor's spec. Sensor size doesn't really matter either, just pixel count.

 

This is all a matter of how the camera's software handles the sensor's pixels.

[bradyboyy88 0]

Per the specs:

The Hik 2032 has a 1/3" sensor and a 4mm lens.

The Dahua has a 1/2.8" sensor and a 3.3mm - 12mm varifocal, though other Dahua models, like the fixed lens 4300S also appear to do direct pixel sampling at the highest resolutions.

 

Lens size doesn't matter, since the number of pixels is the same regardless, but it will affect field of view, which often doesn't match the vendor's spec. Sensor size doesn't really matter either, just pixel count.

 

This is all a matter of how the camera's software handles the sensor's pixels.

 

I would actually like to experiment with different lens types. Any way to tell which lens will fit on a Hikvision DS-2CD2132-I ? Is there a standard type of port/attachment for ip camera lenses or does it depend on brand?

 

I never actually messed with the focus with the camera because I figured it was best to use the manufacturing settings. I guess I should toy around with that?

[MaxIcon 0]

These cams use M12 lenses, like most modern IP cams. They screw in and out to focus and run from pretty easy to a big pain to swap, depending on the cam.

 

The main fit risk is that some lenses may hit the IR filter housing before they're focused, but you can't tell for sure without trying. Also, lenses with big barrels won't fit in the foam ring on a dome.

 

Aside from that, look for MP rated, IR corrected, 1/3" M12 lenses.

 

You can get cheap ones on ebay and dealextreme, but quality control is pretty uncertain on those and lint in the lens is common. Best bet I've found is m12lenses.com, who are not too expensive and have good quality.

 

Focus is usually good out of the factory, but you can tweak it. Best to use a focus target like ISO 12233, which makes it easy to spot the best focus. The focus changes a lot with small adjustments, so it takes patience.

[bradyboyy88 0]

 

Focus is usually good out of the factory, but you can tweak it. Best to use a focus target like ISO 12233, which makes it easy to spot the best focus. The focus changes a lot with small adjustments, so it takes patience.

 

Just from looking into the ISO 12233 I am starting to feel overwhelmed haha. You wouldnt happen to know of any good guides to read which have everything I would ever need to know about ip cameras and their networking and physical setups , etc.? If so I would be really interested in reading it. I am tired of googling for everything and it being spread all over the place lol , plus i feel bad asking so many questions when it seems I am out of my league compared to most people on this forum.

 

Going back to the original post, this is a vague question but I was wondering if an i3 4340 could easily handle 8 ip cameras 3mp ( hikivison models I referenced in first post) running blue iris for recording and viewing. 8 would be the maximum I would go and I can get that cpu pretty cheap . Does recording and viewing use more single thread performance vs multi thread performance? For instance, I can get the i3 4340 for 130 where as I can get the fx-6300 with 6 cores for 110. 4340 has higher single thread performance where as the 6 cores perform less for single threaded applications but overall scores higher on benchmarks if all cores are utilized. I want the best cpu for the job and I have usually gone intel due to power consumption, but if performance wise it wont cut it for the hyperthreading dual core then amd it is!

 

This is last decision before making the purchase. I have yet to look into the other softwares but since like you said previously BI uses cpu more than anything id like to have this decided as a backup.

 

Thanks as usual

[MaxIcon 0]

Sorry, brain fart. I said ISO 12233, and I meant Siemens star - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemens_star. Print one out one from the bottom of this page - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Siemens_star.svg - and use it to focus.

 

The Siemens star is much easier to use than the ISO chart!

 

There are lots of websites with lots of info, as you've found, but not many comprehensive ones, and much of the info you'll find is outdated and inaccurate. Most of us have learned through the School of Hard Knocks.

 

That said, these guys have some free general training that's good to start with:

http://ipvm.com/report/ip_video_training_course_101

 

Some of their training is only available to subscribers, but their basic course is free.

 

As for threading and BI, nobody's really answered that with data. For instance, whether an i7 performs better than the same speed i5 is still unclear, though most people will recommend an i7. Whether the i3 will work for you will totally depend on frame rate, as 24MP is a pretty big load for an i3. I'd be surprised if you could run those cams at 10 fps on that CPU, but it's often hard to predict.

 

You might read up, then ask this, over at the BI community forum, cam-it.org, where there's a lot of discussion about CPU performance.

[bradyboyy88 0]

Sorry, brain fart. I said ISO 12233, and I meant Siemens star - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemens_star. Print one out one from the bottom of this page - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Siemens_star.svg - and use it to focus.

 

The Siemens star is much easier to use than the ISO chart!

 

There are lots of websites with lots of info, as you've found, but not many comprehensive ones, and much of the info you'll find is outdated and inaccurate. Most of us have learned through the School of Hard Knocks.

 

That said, these guys have some free general training that's good to start with:

http://ipvm.com/report/ip_video_training_course_101

 

Some of their training is only available to subscribers, but their basic course is free.

 

As for threading and BI, nobody's really answered that with data. For instance, whether an i7 performs better than the same speed i5 is still unclear, though most people will recommend an i7. Whether the i3 will work for you will totally depend on frame rate, as 24MP is a pretty big load for an i3. I'd be surprised if you could run those cams at 10 fps on that CPU, but it's often hard to predict.

 

You might read up, then ask this, over at the BI community forum, cam-it.org, where there's a lot of discussion about CPU performance.

 

 

gotcha. Thanks again for all the help.