Motion Detect at Dawn and Dusk

[JohnAJohnson 0]

My Hikvision cameras (DS-2CD2132-I and DS-2CD2732F-I, all running V5.1.0 build 131202) see the change from day to night to day as motion. My previous ACTi did it too so it isn't just a Hikvision thing. Anyone know the secret settings to get a camera to ignore the changeover?

[ssmith10pn 0]

Let me know when you find a camera that doesn't do it.

[ak357 0]

Let me know when you find a camera that doesn't do it.

Possible,doable

but who cares

Camera with GPS location and internet time server

[Kawboy12R 0]

Depends on what you need your system to do, but smart software with good motion detection doesn't recognize the changeover as motion. Blue Iris is one example. You think it'd be simple for a camera to recognize its own changeover and not report it as motion to "dumb" software that can't filter it out. It's not a huge deal if it doesn't because there are advantages to running "dumb" software, especially with large numbers of cameras.

[JohnAJohnson 0]

Possible,doable

but who cares

Me?

 

Depends on what you need your system to do...

Detect legitimate motion and record that motion clearly, 5 seconds before, to 5 seconds after. I live in the country and I built this system for a worse case: If I am the victim of a home invasion and killed, I want the police to be able to look at the recordings and identify the bad guys. I don't want them looking through days of video just to weed out squirrels playing, or the sun rising or setting, or other non-pertinent events. I want every recording to be meaningful, otherwise, it'll be trivialized and they might give up before hitting the pertinent recording.

 

You think it'd be simple for a camera to recognize its own changeover and not report it as motion to "dumb" software that can't filter it out.

I know it would be simple but it probably isn't done because a lot of us are fine with substandard quality. See ssmith10pn's and ak357's posts, above.

[51cent 8]

If I am the victim of a home invasion and killed, I want the police to be able to look at the recordings and identify the bad guys

After you are killed, you really won't care.

[Securame 0]

Detect legitimate motion and record that motion clearly, 5 seconds before, to 5 seconds after. I live in the country and I built this system for a worse case: If I am the victim of a home invasion and killed, I want the police to be able to look at the recordings and identify the bad guys. I don't want them looking through days of video just to weed out squirrels playing, or the sun rising or setting, or other non-pertinent events. I want every recording to be meaningful, otherwise, it'll be trivialized and they might give up before hitting the pertinent recording.

 

Then you should install PIRs/motion detectors, and forget about video motion detection (which will give you false positives).

[JohnAJohnson 0]

If I am the victim of a home invasion and killed, I want the police to be able to look at the recordings and identify the bad guys

After you are killed, you really won't care.

 

That's not the point. The idea is for these cameras to deter. This can only happen if the bad guys know they are being recorded (I have signs up) and that nothing can undo those recordings. I record to a NAS offsite so even if the house is burned down, the videos are available. Only other variable is if someone is willing to review those recordings after the event. Deterrence comes from bad guys being arrested because of video. The sooner we all make that closer to a probability instead of a possibility, the greater the deterrent.

 

Overly paranoid, maybe. But if I show a home invader his uneraseable mug shot and license plate and convince him that leaving now will only get him two years in prison vs. the needle, he might believe it.

[Kawboy12R 0]

Well, ak and smith sell software that relies on the cameras to do all of the motion detection. There IS other software out there, and other ways to get THEIR software to more reliably detect motion than the generally lousy in-camera motion detection. Using cameras with alarm inputs hooked to PIR motion detectors is one, although personally I'd take a more pro-active approach to reducing the workload of my local homicide detectives than speeding up their postmortem review of my camera footage. If there's a substantial danger of a home invasion, I'd be having perimeter alarms installed, some seriously heavy duty doors installed with bracing and deadbolts, maybe some window bars, and definitely a cellular-linked alarm system that'll hopefully have the cops to your place quickly after they break in. That'd be in addition to keeping my two good friends Smith and Wesson near me at all times. Also, a safe room would be a good option. I'd also recommend you get someone who knew what they were doing to pick and place the cameras around and in your home, complete with internal SD cards and an external NAS stuck in a closet, false wall, etc. These backup options in addition to your NVR computer and emailed snapshots of motion events will virtually guarantee that the jerk who kills you won't think of all of the things to steal/destroy/burn in order to eliminate all of the footage. Just be sure to send the emailed snapshots to an account that a relative or your lawyer knows the password for.

 

Anyway, look into PIRs and cams with alarm inputs if your current ones don't have that feature. That'll almost eliminate false positives for motion detection regardless of software. Smith or ak would probably love to hook you up with an Avigilon system complete with PIRs that'll overcome the limitations of the MD brains in your cameras. Don't ask how much it'll cost for an 8 cam system installation though. If you have to ask the price... Really though, I'd make sure all of the other self-protection and alarm bases are covered before skimping on them in favour of a big bucks camera system if you can't make what you've already got work to your satisfaction. By all means get a pro to install something properly if you have the budget and any doubt at all of the quality and features of your own design.

 

If the budget can't stand that then look into Blue Iris at under $50, especially if you've got an i5 or i7 desktop computer or don't mind buying one. I've got mine set to ignore motion of less than .2 seconds duration and I get no dusk/dawn changeover false alerts or alerts when lights get flicked on in the house or outside. It's also very good at ignoring things like wind motion, rain, bugs in the IR, etc. You'll have to tweak your settings for your camera placements to get satisfactory antifalsing while not missing real events, and you may never be happy without PIRs if you expect to tune out wind motion in trees and their shadows 30' away and want motion events of people walking 50' away.

 

Software choice also depends on what cams you have already and if they're of mixed brand. Waaay too many possibilities to cover all of the bases in a few forum posts.

 

I'd say gun/tonfa/bat etc first, whatever is legal and/or you're comfortable with. When seconds count, the police are only minutes away. Then alarm system- you can have outdoor perimeter alarms hooked into them that only ding off when you're home and the system is on "stay" mode, not "away". Even cheap wireless driveway alarms can give you a heads-up. Then door/window strengthening, then safe room, and then maybe worry about improving antifalsing in your camera system or doing a complete upgrade if necessary. Additional monitors that're always on are a nice addition to a security system. They're great for letting you know who's coming even if it's not Knuckles McGurk and the rest of his bonecrushers.

 

Also, as far as a deterrent goes, I don't want to burst your bubble but cameras don't do much, even with signs. Just about every business/bank/etc that gets robbed has cams and signs. The signs MIGHT make them pick a neighbour before you, but if they're coming after you BECAUSE of your signs (they might think you must have a pile of gold to warrant those cameras, right???) then they're more likely to wear a mask and make doubly sure to ransack the place for your DVR. Crackheads etc aren't rational about the punishment and WILL steal cash from right in front of a person WHO KNOWS THEM if they can convince themselves they can get to their dealer before getting hauled to jail. Trust me on this. Been there, done that. Speaking of which, having a cheap single cam analog system by your front door with a monitor turned on 24/7 is handy on a daily basis PLUS might convince them that it's the only thing they'd have to steal to eliminate the evidence. I had two front door cameras mounted at one point. The original analog one that had the monitor by the front door plus my Axis network cam recording to internal card, NVR computer, and NAS. It was just wasn't worth the effort at the time to remove the analog's display and whip up a front door monitor for the network cam. The front door monitor was just too handy to give up, plus might've kept someone from digging too far for additional recordings if they DID happen to break in.

[JohnAJohnson 0]

Excellent suggestions Kawboy. Thank you. Both the wife and I are ex-military and we are well armed. Most all your suggestions are done (driveway alarms, gates, strong doors, etc.), and the camera system is a last resort. But I sure would rather have it work than not. The sheriff is a long way off so we don't rely on them at all. I've been building a system of free standing IP cameras (without the need for a computer running external software) that can write to an email box, ftp site, or NAS outside of the home. The Hikvisions are really doing this job well right now and really meet my expectations well.

 

Only the one problem of day/night changeover remains...

[JohnAJohnson 0]

Detect legitimate motion and record that motion clearly, 5 seconds before, to 5 seconds after. I live in the country and I built this system for a worse case: If I am the victim of a home invasion and killed, I want the police to be able to look at the recordings and identify the bad guys. I don't want them looking through days of video just to weed out squirrels playing, or the sun rising or setting, or other non-pertinent events. I want every recording to be meaningful, otherwise, it'll be trivialized and they might give up before hitting the pertinent recording.

 

Then you should install PIRs/motion detectors, and forget about video motion detection (which will give you false positives).

 

Thanks Mind. I'll research PIRs.

[shockwave199 0]

Yeah really, just use pir's and that will cut out the false triggers. But if two change overs a day are the only false triggering you get, I wouldn't be concerned. I would have thought you'd be fed up with a lot more false triggering than just day/night flips. And if you want evidence of crime or homicide, consider how you handle the security of your security system too, if you haven't already. And consider how you handle the recording schedule, to make it as easy as it can be to review playback.

[JohnAJohnson 0]

...if two change overs a day are the only false triggering you get, I wouldn't be concerned. I would have thought you'd be fed up with a lot more false triggering than just day/night flips. And if you want evidence of crime or homicide, consider how you handle the security of your security system too...

 

The two changeovers a day are about it. I've been running the cameras for about a month now and I had a bird trip one, and lightning one night tripped all of them repeatedly. Other than that, vehicles afar and people up close are the only things that'll trip. All in all, I'm pretty happy with the internal motion detection.

 

The cameras can be broken off and taken, but whoever does it will be on video. Of course if they are masked, I'll have nothing. I do live in an area with a lot of meth types (Ozarks). They can be unpredictable, but aren't known for critically thinking through a problem.

[shockwave199 0]

They can be unpredictable, but aren't known for critically thinking through a problem

Now that was worth quoting " title="Applause" />

 

Are you recording to SD cards? You should work out how to get notifications dumped to ftp or email with video and/or pictures. Some way of having events archived so it doesn't matter what happens to the camera or nvr. And since you're getting relatively low false triggers already, it will make each event mostly worth archiving. If you get a storm, clean up that archive. But redundancy in archiving is worth the time it takes to set up. You are very concerned about only important events being logged, a good thing. But follow that up to make sure the evidence doesn't just walk away with a crackhead.

[ssmith10pn 0]

I hope Kawboy12R doesn't have a man crush on me.

 

Sure did mention my name a lot in this thread.

 

I don't sell software, although I'm privileged to work on some of the systems that have some of the most user friendly software out there so maybe the police can solve your murder before you get put in the ground.

[Kawboy12R 0]

If you were Jaclyn Smith instead of Scott you might have a chance. I thought you were an Avigilon tech. My bad.

[ak357 0]

If you were Jaclyn Smith instead of Scott you might have a chance. I thought you were an Avigilon tech. My bad.

By the Kawboy

just for your info

avigilon cameras has more then 8000 motion "cells"

[JohnAJohnson 0]

Are you recording to SD cards? You should work out how to get notifications dumped to ftp or email with video and/or pictures. Some way of having events archived so it doesn't matter what happens to the camera or nvr. And since you're getting relatively low false triggers already, it will make each event mostly worth archiving. If you get a storm, clean up that archive. But redundancy in archiving is worth the time it takes to set up. You are very concerned about only important events being logged, a good thing. But follow that up to make sure the evidence doesn't just walk away with a crackhead.

I've used onboard SD Cards for testing, etc., but prefer a LAN based 4TB NAS (no need for WAN connectivity) to store the video offsite. I've tried Email and FTP and neither work as well as the NAS (I have a crappy DSL service with only 256k upload). But I don't really need an instantaneous alert. The perimeter alarms tell me if someone is approaching the house and If I'm away and get robbed, oh well. That's why I have insurance I guess. I can check the NAS daily or so and that'll be fine, but it's not like the sheriff will actually respond anyway. So provided the crackheads don't find the NAS (on my property but not in the house), the video will survive, even if they break or take the cameras.

 

Another thing about video vs. snapshots... Seems that snapshots always trigger when the target is looking away or has already left the scene. Motion video at 2048 x 1536 X 20 fps, starting a few seconds before, and continuing for a few seconds after, really captures a lot of angles and 20 seconds lays down about 20 MB or so. Not bad, and with 4TB to play with, it'll archive a years worth of video with five cameras capturing the day/night change and my going in and out three or four times a day.

 

...maybe the police can solve your murder before you get put in the ground.

That's always been my life-long goal

[thewireguys 3]

My Hikvision cameras (DS-2CD2132-I and DS-2CD2732F-I, all running V5.1.0 build 131202) see the change from day to night to day as motion. My previous ACTi did it too so it isn't just a Hikvision thing. Anyone know the secret settings to get a camera to ignore the changeover?

 

This is because your cameras (link most cameras or VMS software) do pixel based detection. Basically what that means is when a pixel changes it is seen as motion. Most people assume when they hear motion detection that is it only what THEY want it to record but this is not the case. What you are looking for is analytic based motion detection which can detect humans or cars.

 

Here is an example of analytics used with a thermal camera. This solution will only record when a object is detected and a rule is violated.

 

0PUbvwwKbgU

[shockwave199 0]

If you were Jaclyn Smith instead of Scott you might have a chance. I thought you were an Avigilon tech. My bad.

She was unquestionably still a babe

 

But then she went and did this. Cryin freakin shame, and for me personally, no more motion detection

[Kawboy12R 0]

Once an Angel, always an Angel. At least in reruns. She's almost 70 now, which probably cuts down on the modeling job offers a bit.