Desperately Need Advice on Reliable Camera System

[proton32176 0]

I need some advice on Camera Systems.

 

To be brief:

 

My wife and I live in a High Rise Condominium. Only half of the condo has a drop ceiling which in near impossible to access without tearing out ceilings and walls. The rest are concrete slab which means my ceiling is my neighbor’s floor.

Wireless systems are not practical in buildings like this due to all the concrete and rebar.

 

Example:

The condo is roughly 100 feet in length and no wireless signal regardless of whether it is a telephone or Wi-Fi router will extend from one end of the condo to the other.

For this reason a wired Camera System is the only option.

 

I recently bought a Lorex System from Costco:

 

http://www.costco.com/Lorex-16-Channel-Eco4-Stratus-960H-Security-System-with-2TB-HDD-and-16-700TVL-Cameras.product.100083122.html

 

I have now done all the demolition required to run the wires so you might say I am now “committed” to doing something.

 

We bought this system because Lorex got pretty good reviews and it had eight Dome Cameras. The Domes are the only option for us since they “blend in”. Bullets would make the place look like a Prison which we wanted to avoid.

 

Here’s my problem:

 

I now have a condo with large holes in the walls and ceilings and eight smaller ones for the cameras.

Unfortunately after going through all this I discovered five of the eight Lorex Dome cameras don’t work. Well- they work during Daylight but when they switch to IR the LEDs come on but the picture cuts out into rolling static and the cameras buzz. When the lights come back on and the IR cuts out the cameras work fine again.

 

What I need from you guys is to give me some advice on what to do.

 

The whole system is going back to Costco but the question is do I take a chance and have them send me the same system again or go with something else. As should be obvious the cost of installation with repairing sheetrock and repainting can easily exceed what the system itself cost.

 

What we need is a high quality commercial grade system that once installed and the condo repaired will be reliable and work for years to come.

 

Having five defective cameras out of eight does not give me a great deal of confidence in Lorex. But reading reviews of Swann and Q-See and a few others- Lorex has better reviews than they do.

 

Edited 5-25:

 

I edited out the rest of the post regarding broad recommendations.

 

I have read a lot of these posts since I initially posted.

I have drawn some conclusions from reading through this forum and need to know if you guys feel this is a wise decision.

 

First from reading through these posts it appears Nelley’s Security is a good company so I am leaning towards buying the system from them.

Anybody had a bad experience with them?

Are they willing to help troubleshoot problems after they sell the equipment?

 

As far as the system- everything I have read on these forums seems to indicate Hikvision makes very good equipment. And as I said earlier, due to the expense of tearing out walls and ceilings I need a very reliable system.

 

I am leaning towards the Hikvision DVR:

Hikvision DS-7716NI-SP/16 16 Channel POE Plug N Play Hi Def NVR Recorder

 

http://www.nellyssecurity.com/hikvision-ds-7716ni-sp-16-16-channel-poe-plug-n-play-hi-def-nvr-recorder.html

 

And these Hikvision Cameras:

Hikvision Exir DS-2CD2332-I 3 MP Weatherproof Turret Dome IP Camera 4mm

 

http://www.nellyssecurity.com/hikvision-exir-ds-2cd2332-i-3-mp-turret-dome-ip-camera-4mm.html

 

Do you guys agree this would be both a high quality and reliable system?

 

Finally- we need to view from a PC and an Ipad at our office.

Is the Hikvision a good choice to for these circumstances?

 

If anyone has a better choice I would welcome the input.

As far as the budget- we need a DVR and 9 cameras and probably don’t want to exceed $3500.00

[gigimorphe 0]

Hi

 

the first thing you should do before you put all the wires up is to hook up the unit on the floor why floor ?

is less chance some of the equipment fall down from table and brake.

if all works then you know on the end this could be from few things like

did you pull the cable too hard some time the wires fracture inside the cable then you have problem like no ground on video output then the camera circuitry start looking for other grounds.

in most cases the people handling cables like laundry rope

or you are like me lucky to pick the faulty unit from store

 

but seriously now

 

this faults could be from pulled cables or strain inductance between cables.

some cables are so cheap and the core of the cable is not filtered like coaxials that mean the ground is runing near the signal cable and not around like a shield.

when you have large concrete building with embedded metal fames this can generate inductive noise its enough simmilar like electromagnet works.

i believe in the building you have lifts air condition and many more appliances these can generate lots af noises especially when you running cables near iron bar or inside the wall.

on some power supply you have ferite coils to avoid any noise from appliances.

here is some example

http://www.ni.com/white-paper/3344/en/

 

Field Wiring and Noise Considerations for Analog Signals

 

Overview

Unfortunately, measuring analog signals with a data acquisition device is not always as simple as wiring the signal source leads to the data acquisition device. Knowledge of the nature of the signal source, a suitable configuration of the data acquisition device, and an appropriate cabling scheme may be required to produce accurate and noise-free measurements. The integrity of the acquired data depends upon the entire analog signal path. In order to cover a wide variety of applications, most data acquisition devices provide some flexibility in their analog input stage configuration. The price of this flexibility is, however, some confusion as to the proper applications of the various input configurations and their relative merits. This note helps clarify the types of input configurations available on data acquisition devices, explains how the user should choose and use the configuration best for the application, and discusses interference noise pick up mechanisms and how to minimize interference noise by proper cabling and shielding. An understanding of the types of signal sources and measurement systems is a prerequisite to application of good measurement techniques, so we will begin by discussing the same.

 

the rest is here

http://www.ni.com/white-paper/3344/en/

 

take the cables out from the wall check put everything on the floor hook up allthe cables and cameras and if you see the same start swapping cables and cameras then you know which cale is faulty.

if all works great then its the noise from the structure of building.

for that you have to have better cables or custom made.

i made my own also i bought some thin coaxials and made separately the video audio and power cable all ground connected together also i added ferit ring (cable in loop on each end and middle)

let me know what was wrong

[gigimorphe 0]

dont spend to much on dvrs unless you willing to buy the same quality as the airport has.

q-see kguard swann many other are basicly same some of them has programmable bga processor and the os is stored in serial flash.

all of them is chinese.

i think if you pick any of these and wire up with prper wires then you can use the rest of the money on some holiday.

3500 is to much for cctv

[proton32176 0]

Thanks Guys- I really appreciate all the input.

 

I did take down all cameras and tried them on the floor and tried known "Good" cameras with the wiring that was already up.

 

Bad Cameras were bad on the floor and Good Cameras were good with the wiring where the bad cameras were located. Like I said- they work great in Daylight conditions but in the dark when the IR's kick in the pictures scrambles and rolls.

 

Since I have to return the system anyway I decided to opt for IP cameras instead of analogue in the belief there would be less chance of interference in this building full of metal.

 

Would that be a correct assumption?

[ssnapier 0]

IP vs. Analog is more of a discussion of resolution, the concrete and rebar don't really care about your wires and interference of this sort doesn't work that way. I personally think you made the right call, the IP stuff is only one wire to the camera and you should have MUCH more usable picture from those cameras. Let us know how it goes once you get them running... some screen shots are always good!

[proton32176 0]

Thanks Guys- I certainly will update when it is installed.

 

I do have one more question if I may.

I called Nelley's and got a price for ten 3Mp Hikvision Cameras and the DVR. The whole system is $2750.00.

 

Before I spend this much money it may be wise to tell you what the system is really for.

It is not a security system.

We work out of town three days a week and it will let my wife check on our cats while we are gone.

High Rise condos with all the doors, Common Area cameras, and residents roaming around are difficult to impossible to burglarize. For that reason it is unlikely we would ever look at recorded footage once we get back home.

The system therefore will be used entirely for remote viewing.

Its only purpose is for my wife to check on the cats from our office and if she can't find them on the live feeds- to rewind until she can see them.

 

Our office is in a rural area and our bandwidth is 6Mbps Down and 1/2 Mbps up.

At the condo where the system will be located the Speed is 5Mbps up and 12 Mbps down.

 

I know upload speed on the DVR end and Download on the receiving end is the most critical.

Do we have enough bandwidth at the two locations to take full advantage of the system?

I have researched the question on this site and others and checked bandwidth calculators.

From what I have gotten from the calculators if I am reading them right is the system needs more bandwidth than we have.

 

Is that true?

 

I need to know if the system is more than my internet can handle before I spend all this money.

I know the DVR can record at the higher settings on all channels at the same time. But as I said- we would never have a reason to look at footage while we are home.

 

You guys deal with this all the time so I am interested in real world results as opposed to what a calculator says.

If I have to lower the resolution and/or frame rates dramatically to make it fit my bandwidth it doesn't make a lot of sense to spend almost $3000.00 on a 3-Mp system. Especially if I have to cut everything down to the equivalent of a 1MP system to fit my existing bandwidth..

 

At that point it would be wiser to just match a system to what my bandwidth can handle.

 

So will these internet speeds allow us to take advantage of a 3MP system on remote viewing at reasonable resolutions and frame rates. And if not what system resolution would match our connection speed assuming at least 15 but preferably 30 FPS?

 

 

 

By the way- raising the speed on the condo is not outrageous but raising the speed at the office can push the bill from $44/ month to well over a hundred. And no one uses it except my wife and I to read the news.

For that reason it is not worth increasing the bill an extra $1000.00 a year to raise the office internet speed from where it is to 3Mbps up and 10Mbps down.

 

I am not planning on buying a new system until this Friday so there is no rush on the reply.

 

One final question and please forgive my ignorance. Can the live feed coming across the internet be buffered like Youtube? She doesn't need to see what they are doing the instance it happened. If it lags a little to display a higher resolution that would not be an issue.

 

I really appreciate all your help and patience.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Guest

[buellwinkle 0]

If you would have gone with network cameras instead of analog cameras and chosen a better company to work with rather than Lorex you would have a greater chance of success. It's best to buy from a company that only sells surveillance equipment instead of a big box store were it's likely you won't get much help. I own vacation condos, one that is concrete and steel construction as well as one that is stick built, so I understand the issues and last thing you want to do is start chipping away at concrete floors, ceilings and common walls in a high-rise.

 

So what's the answer? Use your unit's electrical wiring to connect the cameras to an NVR or PC with NVR software using Powerline adapters. Heck, there's even a camera line that uses Powerline completely, forgot the brand.

 

So what you would do is buy any PoE network cameras of your choice and place them were needed. Then use a Powerline adapter plugged into your home router and one at each location you have a camera or groups of cameras. Then use a PoE injector or PoE switch to connect and power the cameras. Most modern day high-rises use stamped steel studs on interior walls. Just run the Ethernet cable through the wall to the nearest outlet for a nice clean look. Any competent electrician can do a nice clean looking install for not that much money.

 

For example, at one condo I have a 2 story ceiling over a wall of glass and tile floors and no way to cost effectively run a wire from one side of the condo to the other. So I use a Powerline adapter and a 4 PoE port switch that sits under the sofa and then have the wire run inside the wall to 2 cameras on that side, one peering out the window and one covering that room.

 

Also, for interior coverage, you can use WiFi cube cameras with built in mic & speaker that are easy to place on a table or cabinet and hide the power wire behind the cabinet. I would hard wire using Powerline as much as possible and keep WiFi use to a minimum as it's not perfect. My biggest problem in my steel and concrete construction building is the windows, they have some sort of metallic E3 coating that affects radio signals but that was built in 2007 where most of my other properties are much older, built in the 80's and 90's.

 

Lastly, and this is more higher end. They sell Ethernet cable that is flat and sticks to the wall like drywall tape. The idea is that you run this wire that's not much thicker than drywall tape and then mud & texture over it and it disappears into the wall, just don't put a nail through it to hang a picture, LOL. I've never tried this but if you find an installer of high end audio/video equipment, they are more likely to have experience with this. I see this at CES every year.

 

Lastly, since security and recordings have little value, consider cameras with built-in SD cards as they can record a few days of events allowing you to go back and see if something happened in the past, for example, if which cat peed on your new rug, what time a package was dropped off, and other things of great importance.

 

As for bandwidth with DSL, the best you can hope for is VGA resolution with remote access 1 or 2 cameras at a time. So don't stress over 3MP cameras. Just get 1MP cameras, they tend to have better low light sensitivity and cost less. I would not mess with the cameras you mentioned above in this case and get the Samsung Wisenet III domes for indoors, incredible low light performance and 720P/1MP resolution.

[proton32176 0]

buellwinkle,

 

You are absolutely right about the Lorex system. The problem with this kind of stuff ( especially if you know nothing about it) is you see something like Lorex on the Costco site- look at the ratings- and buy.

Only later do you realize ( as I did) that you bought Mickey Mouse stuff and far better equipment is available.

 

As far as the condo- you obviously know first hand what I was up against. The advantage of ours is it is possible to run wires through the overhead to all the areas and rooms we needed cameras.

It did involve tearing out sheetrock in different places but we were able to run all the wires to all the rooms. Fortunately, it is still torn up so pulling Network cable using the existing analogue wires I already ran will be very easy.

 

I appreciate the advice regarding the cameras. After spending some time with a bitrate calculator it did appear I was buying more than my bandwidth could handle.

 

I decided on the:

Dahua ESIP-MP1-DM1(CP) 1 Mega Pixel IP IR Outdoor Dome Security Camera

and the:

 

Dahua ESDV-NVRX-16P 16 channel NVR with built in 16 Port POE Switch

from Nelly's Security.

 

I have read very good reviews about Nelly's Security and good things about Dahua. As I said, I won't place the order until Friday so if you feel I am making a bad choice I would appreciate your guidance.

 

Thanks Again

[ssnapier 0]

For this type of usage, did you not consider using something like Dropcam? They would suit your needs almost perfectly, but if you buy more standard professional gear, you will have the additional benefit of getting true security out of the deal and that just makes sense in my head.

[acmaster 0]

FWIW,

 

I tested the Hikvision cameras you were considering and was very impressed with the image quality and option flexibility.

 

a