System Challenge

[Samir 0]

So we have a convenient store that definitely has some serious employee theft going on. I want to kill and bury all the employees, but that isn't an option.

 

So we have installed 4 commercial grade analog cameras. Now the problem is where to put the DVR and power source that it can't be accessed? And what about the power source? If they cut the power, dvr is thwarted too.

 

Thoughts?

[jazzar 0]

lockable dvr cabinet. and a UPS - (uninterruptable power supply) in secure cabinets. if power is cut depending on how big the ups battery is as to how long it will continue to record.

I am sure there must be some other ways of detecting pilfering of this nature- how have your associates in the industry tackled this - surely its not unique to you, invisible dye etc shows up under uv light- maybe that's old hat- not my area of expertise.

[Samir 0]

lockable dvr cabinet. and a UPS - (uninterruptable power supply) in secure cabinets. if power is cut depending on how big the ups battery is as to how long it will continue to record.

I am sure there must be some other ways of detecting pilfering of this nature- how have your associates in the industry tackled this - surely its not unique to you, invisible dye etc shows up under uv light- maybe that's old hat- not my area of expertise.

I was thinking of this too, but then it's all too easy to break the box or find the power source and cut it.

 

So far I've come up with putting it in the attic with a dedicated power outlet there, and a car battery with an inverter and charger on it (or some other crazy long power source). But of course, this system has its own drawbacks.

 

I guess something that's industrial strength should be good, but I have no idea what that is.

 

The industry doesn't typically deal with this type of theft by trying to monitor it, but actively prosecute and eliminate the people behind it. Unfortunately, we're not in the position to do that yet without some evidence.

 

Any other thoughts?

[jazzar 0]

covert cameras can be hidden in wall clocks PIR alarm detectors etc, maybe you could find one that has a built in memory card and just download the footage each night when no one is around- don't know if this is available as a covert device but many cameras have built in memory slots for this type of purpose. that would be minimal instal, we once fitted dvr and psu etc under the bottom shelf ogf shop racking-lasted about 3 months before staff rumbled it by feeling that the shelf was warm due toe heat from the kit- shelf got warm and warmed up the nappies on the shelf- staff picked up nappies -felt they were warm investigated and found the kit.

another type is a PINHOLE lens which has an end shaped like a pencil which can be fitted behind a wall placed against a tiny hole, if you have a secure area that would cover the view you are looking for.

google covert camera and take your pick.

Nothing is fool proof.

[Samir 0]

Since we already have cameras, covert cameras are pretty much out. What we really need is a covert DVR, if there is such a thing. And it has to be pretty much maintenance-free as I won't have the time to do anything with it on-site.

[RRobertsion 0]

Physical security is most important ! and if possible it is better to replace with poe ip cam.

 

Robert

[Samir 0]

Physical security is most important ! and if possible it is better to replace with poe ip cam.

 

Robert

That is my thinking as well. I have a few ideas on how to make the dvr inaccessible to them and yet still be relatively accessible for us. As far as the cameras, the power source is fed with the signal so they can't locally disconnect the power on the camera.

[Samir 0]

As far as power for the dvr, I plan to have an outlet installed that will be a super-pain to get to as well as a long-run ups that will help with power outages--intentional or unintentional.

[jafo38506 0]

lol, what if you ran PoE to all the cameras, but had a bogus power cable that ran to a dome. The bogus power cable would just light up an led inside the dome. Some poor sap comes along and "unplugs" the camera and sees the light go off. Bam, you've got your covert system since now they think the system isn't recording.

[Samir 0]

lol, what if you ran PoE to all the cameras, but had a bogus power cable that ran to a dome. The bogus power cable would just light up an led inside the dome. Some poor sap comes along and "unplugs" the camera and sees the light go off. Bam, you've got your covert system since now they think the system isn't recording.

The domes are all sealed, so I'm not worried about them. I'm more concerned about the DVR and how to secure and power it.

[dan732 0]

Do you have an utility room or closet that you can use?

 

If so, install the DVR in that room and change the lock to the room so that you are the only one with a key.

 

If not, buy a metal wall mount cabinet, commonly used to house networking equipment, and run all of your CCTV wires in metal conduit above the ceiling. And run your power in conduit or armored cable into the cabinet (or have a electrician do it if you can't). And install a 5th camera that just watches the DVR cabinet.

[dan732 0]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Black-Box-Low-Profile-Secure-Wallmount-Cabinet-RMT352A-R2-800106225-/231268913812?pt=US_Rackmount_Cabinets_Frames&hash=item35d8b39294

 

This is the type of cabinet I was talking about

[dan732 0]

Or you could just start hiring new employees and letting go the bad ones.

 

Depending on your state, you can fire and not even have to give a reason

 

And when the theft stops, you know you got rid of the bad ones and just go from there.

 

You should be able to have a camera/CCTV system without employees damaging it, put the power mains in conduit or armored cable, mount the AC outlet in the cabinet, plug the DVR or UPS/DVR. Run the CCTV camera lines to the cabinet in conduit coming down the wall from the ceiling. Install locks on the cabinet. And if you catch anyone tampering with it, instant pink slip and replace them.

 

That is how I would do it.

[Samir 0]

Do you have an utility room or closet that you can use?

 

If so, install the DVR in that room and change the lock to the room so that you are the only one with a key.

 

If not, buy a metal wall mount cabinet, commonly used to house networking equipment, and run all of your CCTV wires in metal conduit above the ceiling. And run your power in conduit or armored cable into the cabinet (or have a electrician do it if you can't). And install a 5th camera that just watches the DVR cabinet.

I like this idea and have looked into it. I think it's a bit too late to have metal conduit for the cabling to the cameras, but I can certainly do that with the power. I like the idea of a 5th camera, although if someone gets that far they can probably steal the dvr.

[Samir 0]

Or you could just start hiring new employees and letting go the bad ones.

 

Depending on your state, you can fire and not even have to give a reason

 

And when the theft stops, you know you got rid of the bad ones and just go from there.

 

You should be able to have a camera/CCTV system without employees damaging it, put the power mains in conduit or armored cable, mount the AC outlet in the cabinet, plug the DVR or UPS/DVR. Run the CCTV camera lines to the cabinet in conduit coming down the wall from the ceiling. Install locks on the cabinet. And if you catch anyone tampering with it, instant pink slip and replace them.

 

That is how I would do it.

We can, but because of bad management, no one would know how to operate the machines for the business. Plus, with the amount taken, we can get evidence and then prosecute them for the whole amount, which would be substantial.

 

The problem is that they can instantly get unemployment, even if theft is proven. Horrible state law gives anyone and anything unemployement.

 

Locks won't be enough. I like the idea of the cabinets and stuff. I have an area that I can secure with a lock and it's hard to access to.

[dan732 0]

Do you have an utility room or closet that you can use?

 

If so, install the DVR in that room and change the lock to the room so that you are the only one with a key.

 

If not, buy a metal wall mount cabinet, commonly used to house networking equipment, and run all of your CCTV wires in metal conduit above the ceiling. And run your power in conduit or armored cable into the cabinet (or have a electrician do it if you can't). And install a 5th camera that just watches the DVR cabinet.

I like this idea and have looked into it. I think it's a bit too late to have metal conduit for the cabling to the cameras, but I can certainly do that with the power. I like the idea of a 5th camera, although if someone gets that far they can probably steal the dvr.

 

You wouldn't need to run conduit to each camera, I was just assuming you had a drop ceiling and just run conduit from the metal box to above the ceiling line. That way they are not easy access. The 5th camera idea is to monitor the box itself, if you see employees messing around with the box, trying to gain access or disconnect wiring or whatever, you can fire them from not doing their jobs and tampering with your security equipment.

[Samir 0]

Do you have an utility room or closet that you can use?

 

If so, install the DVR in that room and change the lock to the room so that you are the only one with a key.

 

If not, buy a metal wall mount cabinet, commonly used to house networking equipment, and run all of your CCTV wires in metal conduit above the ceiling. And run your power in conduit or armored cable into the cabinet (or have a electrician do it if you can't). And install a 5th camera that just watches the DVR cabinet.

I like this idea and have looked into it. I think it's a bit too late to have metal conduit for the cabling to the cameras, but I can certainly do that with the power. I like the idea of a 5th camera, although if someone gets that far they can probably steal the dvr.

 

You wouldn't need to run conduit to each camera, I was just assuming you had a drop ceiling and just run conduit from the metal box to above the ceiling line. That way they are not easy access. The 5th camera idea is to monitor the box itself, if you see employees messing around with the box, trying to gain access or disconnect wiring or whatever, you can fire them from not doing their jobs and tampering with your security equipment.

We do have a drop ceiling, but the company we hired to install the cameras just ran the wires in the ceiling. I don't really see it as a problem as it still would be a lot of trouble to get to them.

 

If anyone made it so far as the 5th camera, they would be going for broke and would be literally robbing the store as they would have to break locks to get there. Hence I think the 5th camera won't really be worth it. But I'll add it anyways and point it right in their face--never hurts to scare the crap out of them.

[jazzar 0]

regarding prosecuting staff- you will only be able to prosecute for the incidents which you have proof of- you could NOT say because I caught someone this time- they have been responsible for the last 2 or 3 months of missing/stolen/tampered with or whatever incidents since you would need individual evidence support for each incident. You may feel strongly that its the same person but without proof you will only be able to recoup any losses directly with the evidence that you produce. so I think you will have difficulty in chasing any losses already incurred. No evidence = no claim back.

[Samir 0]

regarding prosecuting staff- you will only be able to prosecute for the incidents which you have proof of- you could NOT say because I caught someone this time- they have been responsible for the last 2 or 3 months of missing/stolen/tampered with or whatever incidents since you would need individual evidence support for each incident. You may feel strongly that its the same person but without proof you will only be able to recoup any losses directly with the evidence that you produce. so I think you will have difficulty in chasing any losses already incurred. No evidence = no claim back.

Using the video, we could tie back to any other documented evidence found in other systems. And then once we know what to look for, the evidence from the other systems should be more than enough. It's just hard to piece things together individually to figure out the pattern.

[jazzar 0]

ok so here's what we did one time- similar scenario busy warehouse and impossible to fit covertly new cameras- client knew what area needed to be observed.

so we go in normal working hours and fit cameras around the place EXCEPT where its happening but we run cable route past this area and leave a spare wire to connect up a hidden covert camera within the area later on at night.

so we do a regular instal with a twist making it obvious by pointing cameras at the wrong area -NOT where the action is that we wish to catch- then do a night visit to add the covert camera pointing to the area we are suspicious of- this makes it a QUICK visit since all work done during day.

IT WORKED, we heard the staff laughing with us that the cameras wont catch anything- BUT THE COVERT CAMERA DID.

They were declaring burst industrial sized soap powder boxes and then instead of throwing them away they were filling them up with tobacco products first -then put them in the outside bin area and retrieved later on at night.

So maybe something similar could work for you.

And you would need to cover the access points for anyone trying to tamper with the power locations etc as you are already aware.

Good luck- lets know how it goes.

[Samir 0]

ok so here's what we did one time- similar scenario busy warehouse and impossible to fit covertly new cameras- client knew what area needed to be observed.

so we go in normal working hours and fit cameras around the place EXCEPT where its happening but we run cable route past this area and leave a spare wire to connect up a hidden covert camera within the area later on at night.

so we do a regular instal with a twist making it obvious by pointing cameras at the wrong area -NOT where the action is that we wish to catch- then do a night visit to add the covert camera pointing to the area we are suspicious of- this makes it a QUICK visit since all work done during day.

IT WORKED, we heard the staff laughing with us that the cameras wont catch anything- BUT THE COVERT CAMERA DID.

They were declaring burst industrial sized soap powder boxes and then instead of throwing them away they were filling them up with tobacco products first -then put them in the outside bin area and retrieved later on at night.

So maybe something similar could work for you.

And you would need to cover the access points for anyone trying to tamper with the power locations etc as you are already aware.

Good luck- lets know how it goes.

Nice!

 

I plan to do a lot of the installation after hours. No one will have access to the place but me at that time.

 

Our main goal will be to deter all the activity more than anything else. I'll kill and bury the ****ers later.

[Wirelesstech Tech 0]

May consider offsite or cloud storage.

[Samir 0]

May consider offsite or cloud storage.

This would have more feasibility if it was an IP based system, but it's not easy with the analog system we have.

[mgb 0]

It seems that just simply securing the dvr and its power in a locked secured cabinet of some sort is the best way. Also install a covert camera to watch the dvr.

I mean if you've got problems with employees so bad that you have to worry about them stealing the dvr, it may be time to hire an armed guard or change careers.

What is your store, the Taliban gift shop?

[Samir 0]

It seems that just simply securing the dvr and its power in a locked secured cabinet of some sort is the best way. Also install a covert camera to watch the dvr.

I mean if you've got problems with employees so bad that you have to worry about them stealing the dvr, it may be time to hire an armed guard or change careers.

What is your store, the Taliban gift shop?

I like the idea of a separate covert camera. Do they make one that's motion sensing and completely self-contained? This way, if someone even tampers with the system, they're on camera.

 

The best thing I've recommended is firing everyone and starting over, but deadbeats are a dime a dozen in these parts, so there's a lot of rotten apples. It's going to take time to refresh all the employees, so in the meantime, it's better to cover the bases.