HD-SDI backward compatibility with analog CCTV cameras

[SymphonyX8 0]

Good day to everyone,

 

I'm new to this forum so I hope you can be lenient. My current analog DVR has finally conked out and I've been looking to upgrade to HD for some time. I've been looking at HD-SDI and HDCVI in particular because of the cost. IP cameras where I live are astronomically expensive, with IP cameras costing at least twice as much as their similarly spec'ed HD-SDI or HDCVI equivalent.

 

I've been Googling for some time now and it seems that HDCVI is fully backwards compatible. You just install your new HDCVI DVR and HDCVI cameras, plug in the cables, and you're good to go. I'm not exactly sure if it's the same with HD-SDI. Can I simply buy an HD-SDI DVR and cameras and plug them over my old cables? My cables aren't too long, the longest running at 50 meters max. Also, is it possible to mix and match older analog cameras with either HD-SDI or HDCVI? I don't have the budget to upgrade all my cameras at the moment, and I'll probably be upgrading 4 to 5 at most to HD. I'll be upgrading the rest down the line when I have more funds.

 

I would like to get HDCVI because of the cost. 1080p HDCVI gear costs only about 75% of HD-SDI while 720p HDCVI gear is ridiculously cheap, only slightly more expensive than analog CCTV gear. At least that's the case where I live. But I've been reading that HD-SDI has superior image quality and I'm inclined towards that.

 

Your inputs are appreciated.

[survtech 0]

Symphony,

 

While HD-SDI can be run over existing coax, it is a coin toss whether it will work in any particular situation. The cable must be in excellent condition with substantially no deterioration, tight bends, poor connectors and/or connections, etc. When it does work, it works well but when it doesn't, troubleshooting can be a royal pain. Since the signal is digital, it is also go/no-go.

 

The visible differences between HD-SDI and other technologies can range from the subtle to the gross. An IP camera, for instance, can be set to very low frame rates, very high compression (low quality) and/or lower-than-HD resolutions. If either is the case, the HD-SDI camera would shine in comparison. On the other hand, if the IP camera is set at low compression / highest resolution / 30fps, etc. the quality difference will be subtle.

 

Often ignored is the fact that this also applies to recordings in a DVR or NVR. While HD-SDI has the ability to display better "Live" picture quality than any other comparable technology, HD-SDI DVRs/NVRs follow the same compression rules as any others. After compression for recording, the playback video will be nearly identical from any technology given the same record settings.

 

So in essence, unless you want to monitor all of your cameras "Live", HD-SDI will give you little benefit.

 

By the way, there are or will be DVRs with the capability to record both analog and HD for any technology, including HD-SDI, HDCVI, HD-TVI, AHD and IP. The capability has been available to IP via encoders for many years and to HD-SDI for at least a couple of years. The rest of the technologies either have already, or will likely soon, follow suit.

[milkisbad 0]

Get HD TVI, the Hikvision TVI DVR is compatible with analog cameras too. and TVI cameras are fairly reasonable priced...Are you in the states? Since its fairly new its not easy to find.

[Don Stephens 0]

It's not technically backwards compatible, but there are Hybrids and Tribrids that can do multiple cameras types; to include SD analog, HDSDI, HDCVI, and IP.

 

I want to say there's a Tribrid option for HDTVI now, but I could be wrong.

 

To go along with what survtech said, I would toss the idea of HDSDI away. It's cheaper now but it's remarkably inconsistent.

[SymphonyX8 0]

While what all of you have said is informative, they aren't helping me decide at all.

 

I'm choosing between HD-SDI and HDCVI. That's what I've indicated is available to me. IP is a no-no because of its cost. It might be cheaper or comparatively priced where you live, but where I live it isn't.

 

From what survtech said, HD-SDI is only viable if the cables are in very good shape. Reminds me of an HDMI cable. Either it works or it doesn't. I might go with HDCVI if this is the case then. But my question still isn't answered: can I attach both an HDCVI and an analog camera to an HDCVI DVR and will it work? They can both use the same cables, so I assume it should work, although the measly 700TVL of my analog cameras will be upscaled to the 1080p recording resolution if this is the case.

 

I'm not asking about hybrid DVRs. I'm aware of hybrid DVRs which can handle different tech at the same time, but they're costly and rare where I live. They are out of the question. I'm just asking if your typical HDCVI or HD-SDI DVR can still use analog cameras in addition to HDCVI and HD-SDI cameras respectively.

 

EDIT: Apparently this is the case...

It's not technically backwards compatible...

I'll probably just upgrade to HDCVI completely since the cameras are cheap anyways.

[Don Stephens 0]

Whether to go with HDSDI or HDCVI has been made abundantly clear, but here you go again; DO NOT GO WITH HDSDI. PERIOD.

 

Analog and HDCVI can use the same cable as long as you have solid copper RG59 (not copper clad). If you use anything else, there's a very high probability that you're going to neuter your HDCVI camera's image quality.

 

There is no such thing as backwards compatibility in CCTV. This isn't like being able to play a DVD on a Bluray player. Nothing like that exists for security cameras; hence the recommendations for Hybrids/Tribrids.

[Stanleyryan 0]

HDCVI DVR is able to work together with HDCVI Camera and Traditional Analog Cameras. As for your requirement, you can replace to HDCVI.

[SunnyKim 2]

Please allow me to make things clear.

1. Conventional DVR can not go with HD-SDI or HD CVI, whatever HDs.

You need to buy a Hybrid type DVR that can still support analog cameras.

2. HD_CVI may ask you to replace the cables which could be cheap/unbranded whatever, if not solid copper cable.

[msecure 0]

Please allow me to make things clear.

1. Conventional DVR can not go with HD-SDI or HD CVI, whatever HDs.

You need to buy a Hybrid type DVR that can still support analog cameras.

2. HD_CVI may ask you to replace the cables which could be cheap/unbranded whatever, if not solid copper cable.

 

1 is correct, 2 is wrong! HDCVI have very low demand for coaxial quality. So far I have never experience any existing coaxial that does not work & I have tested more than 100's existing cable at various site.

 

And for TS, best is to use TVI as it will accept his existing analog cam & also have slightly better quality than CVR.

[Don Stephens 0]

1 is correct, 2 is wrong! HDCVI have very low demand for coaxial quality. So far I have never experience any existing coaxial that does not work & I have tested more than 100's existing cable at various site.

 

This is blatantly false. Of course cable quality matters, regardless of which signal typre you're talking about. You may want to consult the information provided by the people who developed the technology; HDCVI clearly calls for solid copper cable that's at least 20AWG to achieve it's maximum distance for transmission. I'm glad you've tested hundreds, but I've product tested thousands from almost every known manufacturer. You will neuter your HDCVI cameras if you use anything other that solid copper RG59 or better.

 

 

And for TS, best is to use TVI as it will accept his existing analog cam & also have slightly better quality than CVR.

 

HDCVI, HDTVI, and AHD all have the required equipment readily available on the market to run both SD analog and HD analog simultaneously. The technology is not solely limited to HDTVI.

 

From a quality standpoint, I don't know what makes you think one is better than the other. At this point, they're all nearly identical in capabilities and features. It just becomes of a matter of personal opinion and preference.

[sdisales 0]

I am not sure who is getting their info from, whether from experience or from writing on the wall. Copy this link and read this article in Security Sales & Integration magazine, http://www.securitysales.com/article/hd-sdi-the-hidden-hd-technology, highlighting the overwhelming benefits of HD-SDI to IP or less res like CVI or AHD. Read from some of the best security experts in the industry why SDI is "hidden technology". It is true, the best copper coax is the best, preferably copper braided, but anything pre 2005 would most likely be in that category because the newer copper coated or aluminum coated copper is less than a perfect match for SDI. If you installed your analog system, and you used RG59 Siamese, you are most likely in luck. You can get a signal tester to test the video signal before going that route, a cheap investment for an expensive loss, unless you have to simply run new RG59 copper-copper-copper. If your runs are less than 150' you can run Cat6 with the media balun, but I would bet that your coax is fine, unless you are having video problems now from BNC connections or cable issues. Try switching cameras to different channels and see if there is any difference, or there can be many way to use the process of elimination. Bottom line, HD-SDI has been a 4:1 sales ration over analog in the last 6 months in our market. Once a customer wants a system, and is ready to invest, why not get the very best system available for the price, without setting up servers, switches, and having to "dumb" down cameras to get the best picture from loading up a server with "MEGADATA from MEGAPIXELS'? HD-SDI compresses to H.264 at DVR, not camera, and is transmitted in HD dual streaming live mode with our level 4 and 5 DVR's.

[Don Stephens 0]

I am not sure who is getting their info from, whether from experience or from writing on the wall. Copy this link and read this article in Security Sales & Integration magazine, *link removed*, highlighting the overwhelming benefits of HD-SDI to IP or less res like CVI or AHD. Read from some of the best security experts in the industry why SDI is "hidden technology". It is true, the best copper coax is the best, preferably copper braided, but anything pre 2005 would most likely be in that category because the newer copper coated or aluminum coated copper is less than a perfect match for SDI. If you installed your analog system, and you used RG59 Siamese, you are most likely in luck. You can get a signal tester to test the video signal before going that route, a cheap investment for an expensive loss, unless you have to simply run new RG59 copper-copper-copper. If your runs are less than 150' you can run Cat6 with the media balun, but I would bet that your coax is fine, unless you are having video problems now from BNC connections or cable issues. Try switching cameras to different channels and see if there is any difference, or there can be many way to use the process of elimination. Bottom line, HD-SDI has been a 4:1 sales ration over analog in the last 6 months in our market. Once a customer wants a system, and is ready to invest, why not get the very best system available for the price, without setting up servers, switches, and having to "dumb" down cameras to get the best picture from loading up a server with "MEGADATA from MEGAPIXELS'? HD-SDI compresses to H.264 at DVR, not camera, and is transmitted in HD dual streaming live mode with our level 4 and 5 DVR's.

 

 

Your username makes me think you might be slightly biased...

 

Also, that article is a year and a half old and it's the most recent publication the site has to offer about HDSDI. A year and a half ago was right around the time HDSDI was still generally accepted as halfway decent. Since then, a good majority have come to despise it.

[SymphonyX8 0]

HDCVI DVR is able to work together with HDCVI Camera and Traditional Analog Cameras. As for your requirement, you can replace to HDCVI.

 

This is the answer I'm looking for. I wasn't asking if HD-SDI or HDCVI cameras will work on an analog DVR. I was asking if analog cameras will work on an HD-SDI or HDCVI DVR. Apparently it's backward compatible with HDCVI.

 

I'll be ordering an HDCVI kit this month and I'll let you guys know how it does when it's installed.

[Don Stephens 0]

HDCVI is not backwards compatible and your standard definition analog cameras will not work on an HDCVI DVR unless you purchase a Tribrid DVR.

[msecure 0]

HDCVI is not backwards compatible and your standard definition analog cameras will not work on an HDCVI DVR unless you purchase a Tribrid DVR.

Is this slapping your own face? " title="Applause" /> Coz all this while TS is asking about backwards compatibility with analog using HDCVI DVR. If Hybrid, Tribid or whatever bid sure can have multiple formats. That's why I ask TS to use TVI!

 

HDCVI, HDTVI, and AHD all have the required equipment readily available on the market to run both SD analog and HD analog simultaneously. The technology is not solely limited to HDTVI.

[Don Stephens 0]

Yes, and that technology is known as Tribrid or Hybrid DVRs, and they're available for every signal type. They are DVRs specifically intended to bypass the complete lack of backwards compatibility in this industry.

 

There's no such thing as backwards compatibility. I haven't contradicted that. There's only workarounds to backwards compatibility and those workarounds exist for all signal types, not just HDTVI.

 

My hand remains far from my own face.

[msecure 0]

Yes, and that technology is known as Tribrid or Hybrid DVRs, and they're available for every signal type. They are DVRs specifically intended to bypass the complete lack of backwards compatibility in this industry.

 

There's no such thing as backwards compatibility. I haven't contradicted that. There's only workarounds to backwards compatibility and those workarounds exist for all signal types, not just HDTVI.

 

My hand remains far from my own face.

Wrong, TVI & AHD does not need special recorder to use existing analog camera. It's just plug & play. So that is "Backwards compatibility"

[Don Stephens 0]

I'm aware of that for HDTVI. They're building their DVRs to handle both signal types. You're on the verge of defining what a Hybrid DVR is for me.

[Don Stephens 0]

None of this even matters. The fact is that HDTVI was never even presented as an option, but for some reason every thread demands at least one Hikvision super fan. All of this is just confusing the hell out of the person who originally asked the question.

 

Hikvision and HDTVI is super cool. It works just as well, and in a lot of cases, better than other brands. You win.

 

 

SymphonyX8,

 

HDCVI is not backwards compatible so don't make the mistake of thinking it is. If you want to run your existing camera in addition to new HDCVI cameras, you need a Tribrid DVR (SD Analog, HDCVI, IP). It's probably going to be more cost effective to replace cameras than it will be to keep them considering the price of DVR and size of the system.

[msecure 0]

None of this even matters. The fact is that HDTVI was never even presented as an option, but for some reason every thread demands at least one Hikvision super fan. All of this is just confusing the hell out of the person who originally asked the question.

 

Hikvision and HDTVI is super cool. It works just as well, and in a lot of cases, better than other brands. You win.

 

 

SymphonyX8,

 

HDCVI is not backwards compatible so don't make the mistake of thinking it is. If you want to run your existing camera in addition to new HDCVI cameras, you need a Tribrid DVR (SD Analog, HDCVI, IP). It's probably going to be more cost effective to replace cameras than it will be to keep them considering the price of DVR and size of the system.

 

FYI, TVI does not belongs to HIK, there is already other TVI manufacturers out there producing TVI DVR. If you need to argue constructively make sure you get your facts right.

[Don Stephens 0]

It's open source...of course there's other manufacturers. That doesn't negate the fact that everyone still associates HDTVI with Hikvision.

 

Would you like to try and point out errors in grammar next as a way to continue your argument or are you done now?

[msecure 0]

It's open source...of course there's other manufacturers. That doesn't negate the fact that everyone still associates HDTVI with Hikvision.

 

Would you like to try and point out errors in grammar next as a way to continue your argument or are you done now?

 

No, not everyone associates HDTVI with HIK. At least not me.

[milkisbad 0]

TVT (manufacturer for Q-see and etc) will release TVI as well.

 

But apparently they say analog doesn't work with it....

 

TVT TVI = all brands of TVI cameras only

 

Hik TVI = all brands of TVI, all brands of analog, ONVIF 2MP IP cameras (1 for the 4 ch, 2 for the 8 ch and 16 ch)

 

according to their website, Dahua will make CVI into tri-brid too...(CVI/analog/IP)

 

http://www.dahuasecurity.com/products/hcvr740474087416l-657.html

[captainvideo 0]

hybrids and tribrids are backwards compatable on the analog side .

meaning they work with 960h , D1 etc.

 

the only thing backwards compatable about hd-cvi is that if you have an hd-cvi 1080p dvr ,

it will work with hd-cvi 720p camera's .

but if you have a 720p hd-cvi dvr , you can only use 720p hd-cvi camera's .

 

as far as I know , dahua is the inventor and sole mfg. of hd-cvi hardware .

although you can find hd-cvi equipment with different brand names on them ,

they are all made by dahua .

 

and as far as I know , hikvision is the inventor and sole mfg. of hd-tvi hardware ,

which is also available with different brand names but are only mfg. by hikvision .

 

as far as recorded picture quality goes , I do not know if sdi has any advantage over

cvi or tvi . that is what I was searching for when I found this post.

 

 

symphony ,

if certain equipment availability and price deter you locally ,

why not order what you really want or need online .

I know 123security offers dahua sdi and cvi products under their

house brand name (cantek) and free shipping as well as very

competitive pricing .

[msecure 0]

hybrids and tribrids are backwards compatable on the analog side .

meaning they work with 960h , D1 etc.

 

the only thing backwards compatable about hd-cvi is that if you have an hd-cvi 1080p dvr ,

it will work with hd-cvi 720p camera's .

but if you have a 720p hd-cvi dvr , you can only use 720p hd-cvi camera's .

New HDCVI DVR now support 720p full frame & 1080p half of the frame rate

 

as far as I know , dahua is the inventor and sole mfg. of hd-cvi hardware .

although you can find hd-cvi equipment with different brand names on them ,

they are all made by dahua .

Dahua CVI chip is outsource & can be purchase from main distributor, there are other DVR manufacturers but one of them has already close down.

 

and as far as I know , hikvision is the inventor and sole mfg. of hd-tvi hardware ,

which is also available with different brand names but are only mfg. by hikvision .

Wrong, here is the manufacturer http://www.techpointinc.net/

 

as far as recorded picture quality goes , I do not know if sdi has any advantage over

cvi or tvi . that is what I was searching for when I found this post.

SDI @1080p is digital, therefore it is still the best if you can afford it.