16 Camera IP Solution for Restaurant

[Peja 0]

Hi everyone, first time post but have been reading the forums for a few months now. I've installed coax type surveillance systems in the past but now I need some advice on putting together a digital camera system for some restaurants that will be remodeled in a few months. Since these will be in restaurants, I will have them in corners of the dining rooms and over entrances for the most part, as well as in the kitchens. I won't need them over tills or anything as there are other safeguards in place to protect against theft but it wouldn't hurt to see the computer stations.

 

I'm thinking 16 will be enough to cover the areas I need. 3 over the entrances which leaves 13 throughout the rest of the building. I would like to go IP as it gives the best quality with those nice mega pix cameras as well as the ease of running just cat5e or cat6.

 

Here are some of my questions.

 

1. Is it easier to go with a built NVR or make my own server?

 

2. For a week to two weeks worth of storage, how big would the drives need to be for that many MP cameras?

 

3. Do most people recommend Hikvision? Is there a better brand out there? I know there are many many companies but it seems like Hikvision and Duhua get most of the love around here. I am also located in the USA.

 

4. I would like to be able to access cameras from mobile devices such as a phone. Any issue with that? Can multiple mobile devices access at the same time?

 

5. Can you recommend a good camera with good quality that can also record audio? Is it possible to turn audio off on some cameras and leave it on others? Is audio only through SD cards or can the recorded or live audio be accessed through the streaming on the net when viewing that NVR from the corporate office? I have checked my local laws and see audio is ok as long as you have a sign posted saying the premise is being monitored by video/audio or both.

 

6. Do I go cat5e or 6?

 

7. Do I go built in POE or is it more reliable to use an external POE switch?

 

8. The outdoor coax cameras I have used in the past didn't need to be housed in a blower/warmer even in my cold temps. Do the IP cameras need to be? Any problem with putting one in the walk in fridge at a constant 35 degrees?

 

Anything else I need to know? Sorry about such the long post but I just want to give as much info as I can to best suit my needs. Hopefully get the product in and test it for a month before installing it.

 

Thanks Community....

 

Peja

[bfaridnia 0]

H Peja,

 

Welcome to the forums. I will try my best to answer your questions but I am sure others will chime in as well with areas I might miss.

 

1. Is it easier to go with a built NVR or make my own server?

I'd say since this is your first time, you may be better off going with a NVR which would allow for a bit of a simpler setup, smaller form factor (better for back offices in restaurants)

 

2. For a week to two weeks worth of storage, how big would the drives need to be for that many MP cameras?

There are many online calculators that will help you determine the answer here. It all depends really on the quality of the recording you are wanting, and the frame rate you are reording at. A google search will show you many options. One example can be found here: (first link in google search) http://www.supercircuits.com/resources/tools/security-nvr-storage-calculator

 

3. Do most people recommend Hikvision? Is there a better brand out there? I know there are many many companies but it seems like Hikvision and Duhua get most of the love around here. I am also located in the USA.

I've used Duhua rebranded as Techvision via http://www.seuritycamerakingcom and have had great experiences with them.

 

4. I would like to be able to access cameras from mobile devices such as a phone. Any issue with that? Can multiple mobile devices access at the same time?

This is where a NVR helps eliminate many issues. The same provider above offers good NVR solutions that have built in POE, up to 20 remote users at the same time, etc.. I cant speak to server setups but I assume its the same as pointing the mobile browser to the public IP of the server.

 

5. Can you recommend a good camera with good quality that can also record audio? Is it possible to turn audio off on some cameras and leave it on others? Is audio only through SD cards or can the recorded or live audio be accessed through the streaming on the net when viewing that NVR from the corporate office? I have checked my local laws and see audio is ok as long as you have a sign posted saying the premise is being monitored by video/audio or both.

Check out securitycameraking website and see what they have there. There are many choices. In the end I prefer using separate mics for my audio which will allow me greater flexibility in what I am recording. Amazon has videosecu ones for around $6 each.

 

6. Do I go cat5e or 6?

IIRC Cat6 would be good for future proofing and help eliminate some common transmission errors with longer distance runs but Cat5e would be fine for what you are planning to do. For more information check out http://www.broadbandutopia.com/caandcaco.html

 

7. Do I go built in POE or is it more reliable to use an external POE switch?

Most NVRS will have poe ports as well. Its a matter of preference and having one less thing to take up a power outlet. Remember these back offices are already cramped and filled with paper and other items taking up space and outlets. The simpler you can make the setup on the owner, the happier they will be.

 

8. The outdoor coax cameras I have used in the past didn't need to be housed in a blower/warmer even in my cold temps. Do the IP cameras need to be? Any problem with putting one in the walk in fridge at a constant 35 degrees?

Most cameras are manufactured to handle temperature ranges from -22F to +140. With the freezer install, just be weary of condensation on the lense cover as that would be the only thing to inhibit the video quality. Also be sure to seal the hole to which you route the line to the cooler as Ive seen some installs where it was left open and the client was paying to cool the attic.

 

Anything else I need to know? Sorry about such the long post but I just want to give as much info as I can to best suit my needs. Hopefully get the product in and test it for a month before installing it.

The best thing to do is just experiment with the different cameras out there to see what works for what you are trying to do. Something else to consider is making sure all networking equipment is capable to handle the amount of bandwidth you wish to use. Youll know that from using the calculator. Most cheaper consumer routers are only 10/100. You may want to look into gigabit equipment to ensure your network can handle the load.

 

Lastly, ensure good internet speeds for remote access and drop the frame rates and quality down a bit when accessed remotely. Take your total download speed, then take 80% of that. Thats the total bandwidth you have to work with. Ensure all cameras that are accessed remotely when added up do not pass this number. Otherwise, you will bog down the network and maybe even lock it up to the point of a router/modem restart. (dont need to stream at 2mp on a small phone screen.) I bump my IP cameras own to 2CIF@15-30FPS or HD1@10-20FPS or D1 @7-15FPS depending on what it is covering.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Behzad

[Peja 0]

Awesome information bfardinia. This answers a lot of questions on what I am looking to do.

 

As of right now, I am looking at some Hikvision equipment but will definitely look at the securitycameraking site you refer to. There is a lot of good knowledge to be learned from there.

 

For the most part I think I have it down, but still some stuff to learn. I feel pretty confident in doing the install myself but it is the little things that I am not familiar with, such as scaling down the quality for smart phones.

 

Once again, thank you for all the great info and time you took to respond.

 

Peja

[Don Stephens 0]

Most NVRS will have poe ports as well. Its a matter of preference and having one less thing to take up a power outlet. Remember these back offices are already cramped and filled with paper and other items taking up space and outlets. The simpler you can make the setup on the owner, the happier they will be.

 

The only thing I would add to this is that for the extra money you'll spend on an NVR with built in PoE ports, you can get a significantly higher quality PoE switch for the money. The cheaper PoE switches that are built into NVRs are more prone to burning out. Assuming your warranty still covers you for that, your out your whole system while your NVR is being repaired.

 

For a 16 camera system, I prefer multiple 8 port PoE switches. Like bfaridnia said though, most of it comes down to personal preference and what measures you want to take for future proofing.

[bfaridnia 0]

The only thing I would add to this is that for the extra money you'll spend on an NVR with built in PoE ports, you can get a significantly higher quality PoE switch for the money. The cheaper PoE switches that are built into NVRs are more prone to burning out. Assuming your warranty still covers you for that, your out your whole system while your NVR is being repaired.

Very true. If you have the space, a separate POE switch provides more sustainability and helps in the event of troubleshooting power/video issues. Also, although not ideal, you also have the option to power most cameras via 12V supplies as well which could let you power the cameras locally where you are running low on POE ports. Only issue with this is you will need to go to the camera location to troubleshoot power issues and sometimes outlets are not readily available where you place cameras. Please also don't run multiple extension cords to get an outlet to reach.

 

Another thing to note about the mobile access stream reduction is to be sure to do it on the extra stream that will be viewed remotely. Most NVRs and DVRs have dual streams. One for local recording to the hard drive and viewing and another that is accessible by remote access. You want to make sure you are adjusting down the remote access stream to meet around 80% of your ISP bandwidth and your internal stream to match around 80% of your local bandwidth (at the camera itself, since the camera will be sending the video over the network to the D/NVR when on the LAN). This is where planning helps. Only buy cameras that will be able to be sustained on your network. No point in investing in 3MP cameras when you will only view and record at D1.

 

Once again, thank you for all the great info and time you took to respond.

Any time. I was where you were once and learned what I know now from the knowledge shared by others more experienced than I. I am only trying to pass it on. But in the end you learn most by doing and learning from your successes and failures. We've all had the moment where we thought "hmm maybe I shouldn't have done that..."

 

If you get stuck along the way, stop back by and the awesome people here will help you out. Best of luck!

[Peja 0]

Thanks guys.

 

Any good suggestions on a reliable POE switch? I would probably need a 24 port since I will likely have 16-20 cameras. I don't think I would go with just a 16 port since I would like a bit of future proof even if I only install 16 cameras at first.

 

I see some cisco stuff out there but don't really want to hassle with a managed switch if I don't have to. Then, with some of the other brands, only half of the ports are POE.

 

I could just use two 8-port switches at first, but then a lot of times, those are just as expensive as a 24 port.

 

 

 

I will have to look at the NVR I am looking at to make sure I can scale down just the remote viewing. Anyone have any experience with LTS? http://www.ltsecurityinc.com

Seems like they have quite a few products at good prices. Been talking with one of their reps and seems like a good product.

 

Thanks.

[Don Stephens 0]

Stick with a 16 port PoE switch. I don't like to go any bigger than that unless it's a much larger system.

 

Which one to go with is going to depend largely on bandwidth requirements of your cameras. Do you have cameras picked out or purchased yet that you can link us to?

[Peja 0]

I won't know for sure but I am leaning towards some of these: http://www.ltsecurityinc.com/en_us/product/1275.html. Re-badged Hikvision.

 

I like how they include the audio if needed and also in a kitchen or other location, it is easier to clean in case of kitchen grease, etc. I'm not sure because I haven't tried it, but it seems like bullets may be tough to clean with if it gets dirty.

 

I may also look into these: http://www.hikvision.com/en/us/Products_show.asp?id=9126

 

 

I don't need anything crazy, just a nice clean picture. I just figure if I am going to do this, I will do it right the first time and have quality images on my cameras.

 

Thanks.