First Installation (currently underway)

[DELTA-7 0]

Hello, this is a project I'm working on with my first client, any input or wisdom would be greatly appreciated.

 

The install is at a very rural location with little to no internet capability (1/4mbs avg). Based upon the client's needs and understanding, I planned around the need for it, and if anything, one less (big) obstacle and security area to focus on.

 

Working within a set budget allowed me some parameters to work in, and being a dark rural area at night (with daylight being a non issue as the client's needs called specifically for nighttime when slow moving or stopping vehicles have become a constant concern and the client thus can never leave his property). I settled on two B204M Bullet Cameras set up via PoE configuration that run to a NETGEAR GS108PE PoE Switch.

 

Here is where I probably could have done things differently and would appreciate comments so the new guy can stop being so new

 

The PoE switch is connected to a NETGEAR AC1750 Router that is simply in place to manage IP addresses, and any wifi capability has been turned off, so it's basically a DHCP switch. All of this is powered by a brand new i5 powered Desktop with windows 8.

 

I urged him that for his needs, a very good quality NVR isn't within the budget, and one that will allow for more than 8 cameras (which the client has indicated he's certain about future cameras. With my limited knowledge but research everything no less, a quality NVR would be over a thousand, and so I selected the brand new out of the box Dell 660 (1tb, 8gb RAM) as the server.

 

I removed and gutted everything from the machine, even minesweeper, as the purpose of this machine is 100% surveillance dedication.

[DELTA-7 0]

The main coverage for both of these Optica pro grade bullet cameras is a roadway. Northbound, southbound. Installing them each to look in their respective directions, both mounted discretely 20 ft elevation from the roadway. I will be adding 1 Optica dome camera to observe activity in the center of this (which would cover the driveways which intersect on the east and west, covering for any vehicle stopping between cameras.

 

I'm running the cable tomorrow, and I hope that there are no technical issues, because both Optica and NETGEAR manuals are very sparse for true install information, I seem to have trouble finding true PoE step by step diagrams but with what I have on hand, I technically possess the fundamentals to get started.

 

Video Management Software will be from Milestone, but I've not taken that step yet, and am keeping options open. No internet is needed, and the computer has multiple USB 3.0 ports so that I can set the machine to record off the main hard drive, and dedicated to an easily removeable external that will give me some lateral movement on how big or type (SSD/HDD) that I'll end up using.

[lemireslowvoltage 0]

What are your concerns with the POE?

 

I would recommend a separate hard drive for the OS and the recordings.

 

Remember you are limited to 300FT with Ethernet.

[DELTA-7 0]

Thanks for the reply, I suppose I should clarify, looking back I didn't really ask a good question rather at the time I was saying everything planned so if any one thing was a bad idea, I'd hear about it that way

 

So I just laid the Ethernet cable, 4 lines (1 is for future use) and it took me a lot longer than I thought it would, it took me all of the morning and half of the afternoon.

 

I have to say, nothing was more demoralizing during this whole thing than seeing the damaged cable I created when I had to reach at a very odd angle on a very high extension ladder and with a very hard to pull staple gun that keeps the lines in place. I could have thrown that damn staple gun and called it a day, lol. At the time I felt like I just ruined the entire cable length because I never anticipated damaging the cable like that (1 cable). Turns out I did it once more before I was done.

 

Did some research but wanted to ask here first, if I damaged, even minimally, a portion of the cat5e, I need splice it into two RJ45's than run them through a coupler correct? Bear in mind this is semi outdoor (under cover) but exposed to the elements and I was curious if I need to run a more robust coupler. Bottom line, 2 portions of a cable were damaged slightly and I'm just wanting to fix them.

 

Bolting cameras up today and hope I can get that far, wish me luck...

[Don Stephens 0]

Removing the bad sections and using a coupler would be how I'd do it. That's certainly not weatherproof, so I usually get creative with small junction boxes, or heat shrink wrap in a case like this.

[tomcctv 190]

Hi . If your going to join cat5 I would look at jelly been.

 

Adding extra RJ45 ends then a coupler could be a problem spot ... Giving your cable extra resistance.

 

Keep cable twist as much as can and use jelly crimps.

 

 

[DELTA-7 0]

Thanks guys, appreciate knowledgeable people giving my work the once over, being my own trainer, it's a tough road that slows my potential. Interesting product you showed, I will definitely check that out.

 

Just an update, and I'm finding myself unsurprised that the system is not working still. To catch you up on the progress, and so I can get some help, I finished running the cat5e cables, 3 total, maximum length end to end is 88m. I'm using Optica B204m Bullet Cameras (professional grade, PoE, out of the box new) and while I await the third, I'm using a tester I keep on hand for troubleshooting, and that's a consumer grade 3mp TRENDnet TV-IP310PI Outdoor/IP66 Day/Night Dome PoE.

 

After terminating the RJ45 plugs on both ends, from switch to camera, the switch shows green lights (normal when a PoE device is detected upon plugging in) and the cameras themselves turn on, IR lightning, internal sounds and lighting are all verified. However, the problem is I'm getting no data I believe. No network activity show on the PoE switch, normally a orange blinking light opposite the green one on each port of the switch. So power is on, but no data is cross talking.

 

Verified the equipment by using 25' cable to the camera and orange network flashes, data is sent perfectly normal and for once, the device is assigned an IP address because it's verified and recognized by DHCP. But not on the 88m/270ft~ lines (all three respond the same, they are consistent)

 

I called NETGEAR tech support and after an hour and a half of painfully intelligent insulting minutes, they concluded that the cable is too long and I need to find a way of shortening.

 

Being an apolitical tech support agent, and obviously not prepared to deviate from the flow chart dimension they reside in, he was completely uninspired by my (ultimately pointless effort) baffled response. That the wattage requirement of all cameras, let alone one single camera we tried, is shamefully well below any power consumption thresholds that the GS108PE specs out in clear view.

 

The same threshholds I told him that industry standards are written in stone that PoE of 100m or less and within power consumption requirements, are promised by any legitimate PoE product being marketed. He says its simply a different situation in my case, and I remind him the product being sold is making claims above and beyond its capabilities and riding coat tails on the industry jargon most manufacturers promise by rule: 100m, multiple ports, common thresholds, etc. Am I missing something here or is my gut instinct that a $120 PoE switch is too cheap, and I got what I paid for? Something tells me I wouldn't be having this problem if I used a rackmount business enterprise classed switch that, honestly, makes the same claims of threshold capabilities -but can actually stay true to its claims without flimsy asterisk needing pretenders.

 

Thoughts? Before I forget, and to skin this cat already will a mid span fix this?

[Securame 0]

Just an update, and I'm finding myself unsurprised that the system is not working still. To catch you up on the progress, and so I can get some help, I finished running the cat5e cables, 3 total, maximum length end to end is 88m. I'm using Optica B204m Bullet Cameras (professional grade, PoE, out of the box new) and while I await the third, I'm using a tester I keep on hand for troubleshooting, and that's a consumer grade 3mp TRENDnet TV-IP310PI Outdoor/IP66 Day/Night Dome PoE.

 

That is a good distance. POE working (or not) depends on many factors, cable length, cable materials, cable category, camera power requirements, etc. I can very well see an IP camera not working with such a long Cat5e cable. Even with more reason if they are two cables merged into one (I have not reads the full thread).

 

I think you have already put the cables in place. You should have tested before doing so. Even more, with that distance I would have used Cat6, which is thicker than Cat5e. I have actually done runs of about 80m Cat6. I have seen shorter runs of Cat5e fail. 88m? I would have never used Cat5e.

 

I called NETGEAR tech support and after an hour and a half of painfully intelligent insulting minutes, they concluded that the cable is too long and I need to find a way of shortening.

 

I agree with them. The switch is not at fault at all there.

 

The same threshholds I told him that industry standards are written in stone that PoE of 100m or less and within power consumption requirements, are promised by any legitimate PoE product being marketed. He says its simply a different situation in my case, and I remind him the product being sold is making claims above and beyond its capabilities and riding coat tails on the industry jargon most manufacturers promise by rule: 100m, multiple ports, common thresholds, etc. Am I missing something here or is my gut instinct that a $120 PoE switch is too cheap, and I got what I paid for? Something tells me I wouldn't be having this problem if I used a rackmount business enterprise classed switch that, honestly, makes the same claims of threshold capabilities -but can actually stay true to its claims without flimsy asterisk needing pretenders.

 

No idea what you are saying there. You think any POE device will work with any cable that is shorter than 80m? No idea on where you got that from.

[DELTA-7 0]

Thank you for giving me some insight, I will definitely retain some valuable lessons and put more effort into blueprinting my next install.

 

I think my own assumptions about PoE capabilities are novice at best, but the challenge definitely helps keep the learning part very interesting. See, I was under the impression that if you have a PoE switch that claimed to power devices that support PoE up to a distance of 100m, I assumed that 100m or less meant using Ethernet cable. If it's less than that length, despite spec reading, it's a spec I didn't anticipate.

 

To clarify the setup, it's a new PC, 1ft data cable to DHCP switch which uses another 1ft Ethernet cable to the last port, #8, on the PoE switch (data ports are 4-8, while the PoE capable ports are 1-4 only). From there, ports 1-3 each have an (at present) 88m length of cat5e ran to the devices. With the cameras now mounted, I am fairly confident the excess can be cut to a max length of 75m tops.

 

Power shows for all three ports and the cameras all power on just as they would during short cable testing. The problem is that no data is being sent either way.

 

I have to think of a way to get the data flowing again, which will then allow the device to be seen by DHCP, thus manageable. Cost isn't an issue, time is however.

 

Thanks again everyone, the new guy appreciates it!

[Boogieman 1]

You didnt say how you fixed the damaged cable...regardless you issue is most likely related to a using a coupler or even the jelly...when working at the fringes of specs you need a single run cable...and as others have mentioned preferably cat6. Also ensure the cable you are using is solid copper not CCA or copper clad aluminum.

[Securame 0]

I think my own assumptions about PoE capabilities are novice at best, but the challenge definitely helps keep the learning part very interesting. See, I was under the impression that if you have a PoE switch that claimed to power devices that support PoE up to a distance of 100m, I assumed that 100m or less meant using Ethernet cable. If it's less than that length, despite spec reading, it's a spec I didn't anticipate.

 

There is many different kinds and qualities of ethernet cables. I am not saying you can not get those 100m under ideal conditions (Cat6 pure copper, with good AWG). But I surely would never run a 100m cable without first trying it on the ground (that is, I will not waste hours of time to run the cable if I am not 100% sure that the cable will work when it is in place).

 

To clarify the setup, it's a new PC, 1ft data cable to DHCP switch which uses another 1ft Ethernet cable to the last port, #8, on the PoE switch (data ports are 4-8, while the PoE capable ports are 1-4 only). From there, ports 1-3 each have an (at present) 88m length of cat5e ran to the devices. With the cameras now mounted, I am fairly confident the excess can be cut to a max length of 75m tops.

 

If the cable is still in place, try to see if it does work with those 75m. If it does not, you know the exact length already (those 75m) you might want to make a 75m Cat6 cable and try with it before swapping the cables.

 

If you do have 220v somewhere in the middle of that 88m cable, you might want to cut the cable in 2pc, and put a small 4port POE switch in the middle. I had to do that a few times with big installs, where I will use several smaller switches along the way for cameras that are very far away (I use cheap TP-Link SF1008P non managed 8 port switches, with 4 POE ports).

[tomcctv 190]

Hi. You should be ok for that distance with cat5.

 

Can you list the spec of your cat5

Also can you give your Rj45 connector wiring

 

Another quick test is remove your switch and put 24v direct to camera (no POE)

[Ninety 0]

Hi. You should be ok for that distance with cat5.

 

Can you list the spec of your cat5

Also can you give your Rj45 connector wiring

 

Another quick test is remove your switch and put 24v direct to camera (no POE)

 

This is what I'm thinking.. have you tested your cat5 runs ? Are you certain that your connecters are properly seated? ie no suck out.. the wire is all the way to the end and is making good contact on each end? What wiring scheme did you use? I'm thinking it's a wire termination issue..

[gb5102 0]

Also ensure the cable you are using is solid copper not CCA or copper clad aluminum.

Can you list the spec of your cat5

Also can you give your Rj45 connector wiring

^ these

I'm thinking your issue is either caused by low-quality cable, or it is miswired. With hi-quality, properly terminated cat5e cable you should have no issues at this distance.