Help with type of Coax to use

[TGMcCallie 0]

I have a Samsung SDS-PS122 camera kit which consist of 12 cameras (SDC-7340BC) with DVR (SDR-5102). I am undecided as to the type of cable that I need to install rather than the ones that came with the system.

 

I have researched several sites and some tell me to use RG6 and some say RG59. I can get both type in Siamese cable but

it seems that I can't get RG6 Siamese in solid copper core (SCC). I can get it only in copper coated steel core (ccs).

I can get solid copper core in RG59.

 

I will be using (BNC Belden Snap-N-Seal FSNSBNCU) connectors which say they are for both type of cable RG6 or RG59.

 

I was going to use RG6 but the copper coated steel core cable seems to me not to be the type to use. One site tells me that

the video signal travels along the outside of the core anyway so that is why you can use the RG6 cable.

 

Will someone who is familiar with this please give me some advice.

 

Thanks

Edited October 26, 2014 by Guest

[jazzar 0]

Rg59 is the standard for CCTV for up to approx. 200m before any significant loss which will then require further amplification or alternte transmission kit. The signal travels down the centre core and the screen is mainly used to stop rf interference reaching the centre core. You should be good with rg59 as per above distances.

[TGMcCallie 0]

Is it true what one site told me that the video signal travels down the outside of the center core and they use steel wire with

copper coating for strength. Seems to me they use steel with copper coating for cost reasons rather than anything because copper is high now.

 

What do you mean 200m? I am sorry but I don't know the term.

 

Your thinking please.

[Numb-nuts 1]

Is it true what one site told me that the video signal travels down the outside of the center core and they use steel wire with

copper coating for strength. Seems to me they use steel with copper coating for cost reasons rather than anything because copper is high now.

 

What do you mean 200m? I am sorry but I don't know the term.

 

Your thinking please.

 

I agree with TGMcCallie, the bull that you were told sounds like an idiot excuse justifying why they use cheap CRAP.

How can he see where the signal travels? Where did he get this C0ck & Bull story? He likely made it up.

 

pure copper is more expensive thats the ONLY reason anyone might use it.

Copper requires careful handling it's true but should be malleable too so it can take some punishment during installation, problem is if you make a long run of copper cable and test it and it has a break it's a pull and replace so careful handling is essential.

Have you considered using Cat5 with baluns ? Same Principal applies just use solid copper conductors. You can send the signal upto 1000 ft without amplification and further with active baluns.

[jazzar 0]

200m on my previous post means 200 metres of cable.

as the signal travels down the cable it suffers a loss, 200 metres is about as far as it is designed to go and still work without any other amplification devices being required to transmit it further.

so if your cable run is less than 200m rg59 is fine.

the screened side of the cable will be grounded at the control kit- thus any radio frequency interference should then be filtered down to ground and be stopped from reaching the centre (signal core) thus reducing interference to the video picture.

[TGMcCallie 0]

Thanks for each of your help. Would you then use RG59 with solid copper core rather than RG6 with copper coated core.

Tom

[jazzar 0]

yep RG59. UP TO 200 metres.

for further runs you can use ct100.

for further again ct125

for further again ct167.

These cables are different each one gets bigger in size and produces less loss per metre so can go further.

Each cable type requires its own connector types each one different.

[the toss 0]

Is it true what one site told me that the video signal travels down the outside of the center core and they use steel wire with

copper coating for strength. Seems to me they use steel with copper coating for cost reasons rather than anything because copper is high now.

 

What do you mean 200m? I am sorry but I don't know the term.

 

Your thinking please.

 

I agree with TGMcCallie, the bull that you were told sounds like an idiot excuse justifying why they use cheap CRAP.

How can he see where the signal travels? Where did he get this C0ck & Bull story? He likely made it up.

 

pure copper is more expensive thats the ONLY reason anyone might use it.

Copper requires careful handling it's true but should be malleable too so it can take some punishment during installation, problem is if you make a long run of copper cable and test it and it has a break it's a pull and replace so careful handling is essential.

Have you considered using Cat5 with baluns ? Same Principal applies just use solid copper conductors. You can send the signal upto 1000 ft without amplification and further with active baluns.

 

 

This phenomenom(?) is called the "skin effect" but only becomes apparent at around 100Mhz & above. So as I constantly tell people that RG6 is designed for HF RF signals , you can get away with short runs of CCS for TV signals but not for CCTV which operates on a baseband of around 5Mhz. For CCTV it has to be copper RG59 with high density shieldin or UTP with baluns. Personally I prefer RG59 but have used UTP on occassion.

[TGMcCallie 0]

I am totally confused now.........Do I use RG6 or RG59 for my security system?

Tom

[Boogieman 1]

RG59 Or u can use Solid Copper Cat5 or 6 with baluns which will be useful if you ever decide to upgrade to ip cameras so you dont have to rerun cable....

 

http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=110&cp_id=11011&cs_id=1101101&p_id=6878&seq=1&format=2

[Horizon 0]

Hi TGMcCallie

You can use either solid copper RG59 or solid copper RG6. Solid copper is needed for the low frequencies used with CCTV.

RG6 is better for long distances, as it has less loss.

If your distances are less than 200 meters, then RG59 will be best, as it is slightly cheaper.

 

Stay away from the copper coated steel, as this is only for satelite or cable TV use, which operate at much higher frequencies. The copper coated steel cable trashes the low frequency CCTV signals. Just because it works with higher frequencies, doesn't mean that it is a superior grade cable.

[Numb-nuts 1]

I would say if you haven't done this sort of work before there is no shame in using ready made cables but make sure they are good quality ir your cable length potential wll be severely reduced

 

You can get a dealer to make up some cables for you using rg%( Siamese or shotgun cable.

Your other alternative would be use the type of baluns pictured below and have cat5 cable made to length with RJ45 ends

 

The latter makes a very uncomplicated install, it's not perfect but might suit

someone installing for the first time or without much installation experience

[the toss 0]

Hi TGMcCallie

You can use either solid copper RG59 or solid copper RG6. Solid copper is needed for the low frequencies used with CCTV.

RG6 is better for long distances, as it has less loss.

If your distances are less than 200 meters, then RG59 will be best, as it is slightly cheaper.

 

Stay away from the copper coated steel, as this is only for satelite or cable TV use, which operate at much higher frequencies. The copper coated steel cable trashes the low frequency CCTV signals. Just because it works with higher frequencies, doesn't mean that it is a superior grade cable.

 

 

Which is why you SHOULDN'T use RG6. RG6 MAY work ok but you won't know until all the cabling work has been done & the system fired up. I have seen RG6 used after being advised against it & finding the picture was un-useable. The look on his face when he realised that it would ALL have to ripped out was something to behold.

[TGMcCallie 0]

Horizan: Thanks for your advice. If I decide to upgrade my system to a 1080P would it be better to use the RG6

or does it make a difference?

Tom

[jazzar 0]

Tom - you seem to be really keen on rg6 while just about every poster here is advising otherwise ? just an observation.

is it a case that you have already committed to this on your installation, otherwise don't understand why still asking about the wrong type of cable.

[Securame 0]

Tom - you seem to be really keen on rg6 while just about every poster here is advising otherwise ? just an observation.

is it a case that you have already committed to this on your installation, otherwise don't understand why still asking about the wrong type of cable.

 

Agree. You have been told by several members to use RG59, but you are still asking if you should be using RG6...

[Numb-nuts 1]

Yeah why so keen on using the wrong product?

 

You seem to be looking for an endorsement of RG6, fact is it MIGHT

work but chances are it probably won't be as good as RG59 or CT100/125/165

[TGMcCallie 0]

Because I was told by several people that RG6 would be

better and I bought all the bnc snap N Seal connectors

for RG6. The material in the package says it will work for

both RG59 and RG6 but I have found out that RG59 is smaller in diameter than the RG6. I just don't want to take them back and try to swap them for ones expressly for Rg59 if RG6 will work.

 

I am just trying to get the best installation on cable that I can get, the money is not an issue.

[Horizon 0]

Hi Tom.

If you are thinking of upgrading to 1080p, then you will eventually want network or IP cameras. You should consider using twisted-pair (CAT5, CAT5E, or CAT6) cable instead. If you want to start out with analog/composite video cameras, then as Numb-nuts has mentioned, you can use twisted-pair with analog cameras through the use of baluns. You can also feed power down the same cable with the video. The cable's cheap, and works great, although the baluns can get pricey, as you need one at each end.

 

Copper RG59 or RG6 is fine for analog CCTV, although twisted-pair provides an upgrade path to IP cameras.

Copper clad steel RG59 or RG6 is terrible. It won't work!

For more info: http://www.pacificcabling.com/Information/Information_other/CCTV_cable_choice.htm

[tomcctv 190]

If op is thinking of upgrading ....... He might be looking at HD-SDI

 

SO best option is a good RG59 coax and cat5 to run power .... That then gives full options

 

 

HD-SDI can't run on anything other than a good quality Rg59.

 

 

Just forget rg6

[the toss 0]

Horizon , I wish you would stop telling everyone that it is fine to run RG6 - it isn't.

If they happen to have a roll of RG6 lying around & want to try their luck then go for it. BUT if these people are starting from scratch & want to use the CORRECT cable then you are misleading them. I will dig up some links that explain the deficiencies of using RG6 for CCTV.

 

 

http://www.abccables.com/info-rg59-vs-rg6.html

[Horizon 0]

Hi, unfortunately abc cables is inaccessable tonight. They're no even responding to ping.

 

Okay, I really am curious as to what the problem is with RG6, and I'd like to know what I'm missing.

We are talking about the standard copper RG6 (copper inner conductor, copper braid with 95% or so coverage), and not the copper-clad-steel (CCS) stuff that is used for CATV (cable access TV) or MATV (master antenna TV) systems. CCS coax generally has dual, triple, or quad braids to prevent RF leakage, and to keep the FCC or other spectrum management agencies off the CATV company's back. The copper cladding suits CATV/MATV, because they are running up in the hundreds of MHz, with no low frequency content.

 

I see that you can also get RG59 CCS coax, with siamese power leads. It's claimed to be no different to full copper (yeah right). Some of the stuff even has a copper clad steel braid. Yay. Google "copper clad steel rg59" and take a look at all those horrible hits. Well, it might be okay for short runs, and there may be a way to compensate for the low frequency loss, but I'll stick to full copper (or twisted-pair!).

 

I should be able to locate some links tomorrow - it's getting a bit late tonight.

So in summary; copper good, CCS bad. If in doubt, use a magnet!

 

Cheers

[the toss 0]

The problem is this. The shielding on coax cable is essentially a Faraday Shield surrounding the active inner conductor. Now Faraday shields cannot exclude the total spectrum of RF frequencies , they are designed for a specific range in the spectrum. Similarly , shielding aint shielding. Shielding is designed for a specific range of rf exclusion. RG6 , being designed for mainly digital RF frequencies, has had its shielding designed to prevent high frequency interference in the range of interest (80Mhz & above).

Now CCTV baseband signals are at about 5Mhz. This frequency is well outside the digital TV band & would have been irrelevant in the RG6 design stage. So the noise rejection properties of RG6 is quite poor at the CCTV frequency of 5 Mhz. Similarly using RG59 for Digital TV antennas presents the same problem in that RG59 has poor noise rejection properties at digital TV frequencies.

It can , and has been used for cctv but unless you are sure about exactly what spurious EMF interference is in the area you won't know how it will perform until it is installed & the system fire up. Some may be willing to take the risk but as one who earns a living from this type of work I won't take the risk.

 

So if you take the time to do some research the bit to concentrate on is the shielding.

[TGMcCallie 0]

If op is thinking of upgrading ....... He might be looking at HD-SDI

 

SO best option is a good RG59 coax and cat5 to run power .... That then gives full options

 

 

HD-SDI can't run on anything other than a good quality Rg59.

 

 

Just forget rg6

[Horizon 0]

Hi the toss. I see the problem here.

When I say "RG6" you hear "cable TV coax".

The example you've given is CATV coax. This is likely (99% likely) copper-clad-steel, as it is heavily cost-optimised for high frequency use. As you are saying, and which I have agreed with in many previous posts, copper-clad-steel (sometimes known as CATV or digital TV cable) is not suitable for use with low frequency CCTV. I don't see why we're arguing about this point.

 

I agree with your point on shielding, and this site http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/shielding.htm gives a good description and comparison between shielding types. Although they don't mention the cable part numbers that were used (which is sloppy, and makes it hard to verify the results), they do claim that quad is half as effective as 95% copper braid and foil.

The main cause for concern with copper-clad-steel is the high losses at low frequency. With composite video (analog CCTV), the vertical sync at 50Hz is most susceptable, but the horizontal sync at 15.625kHz will also be corrupted. If you don't have clean sync signals, you will not have a good picture - it will be torn and distorted. I think this is more important than the sheilding, although the quad shield on CATV coax will definitely not help preventing the distorted and attenuated syncs from being swamped with noise.

 

What I disagree with is the claim that all RG6 is unsuitable.

There is plenty of solid (or full) copper cored RG6 coax available. I'm moderately familiar with Belden, so here's a link to some:

http://docs-asia.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/06de/0900766b806de548.pdf

It's designed for CCTV, and it meets the RG6 requirements. Solid copper core, 95% braid and foil.

 

Then I'll move onto tomcctv's claim that HD-SDI can only run on RG59. Again, there is RG6, RG11, and even RG179 that is rated to the full 3GHz.

There are plenty of manufacturers that make coax with different grades and quality. Sticking with Belden ('cause I'm lazy), we have a list of distances versus data rates here:

http://www.belden.com/docs/upload/Recommended_Transmission_Distance_at_Serial_Digital_Data_Rates.pdf

RG179 = 179DT, RG59 = 1855A, RG6 = 1695A, RG11 = 7731A are some examples.

This is for professional HD-SDI used in TV studios and movie theatres. I'm not sure what (if any) trade offs have been made for CCTV use. Hopefully none!

 

So now it's clear that TGMcCallie wants to upgrade to HD-SDI, I would highly recommend that he choses his coax carefully, so that it will support the HD-SDI cameras that he wants to install. Personally, I'd go with an IP based system, but that's just my opinion, and everyone is entitled to there own choice. I also recomment that TGMcCallie follows tommcctv's advice and also runs CAT5 cable for power. CAT5 is relatively cheap, and in my opinion (again!) you'd be a bit crazy not to run it.

 

The cables I've used in my examples are all from Belden, as this manufacturer is used a lot in the industry that I'm involved with (which is not CCTV related, and I definitely don't work for or with Belden ). There are plenty of other manufacturers out there that make similar good quality cables. Please don't buy the cheapest generic junk cable that you can find!