Help with type of Coax to use

[TGMcCallie 0]

Hoizan are you saying that I need to run a RG59 single Coax and a Cat5 multi stran cable for power use. That way if I wanted to

go to a IP system then I could only add balhm converters.

 

Am I reading you correctly that I do not want to run the RG59 Siamese cable?

 

I have not installed my system yet and Costco has a HD -NRA 8 camera 1080P system for the same price that I paid for my

12 camera analog system. If I were you would you do the IP system. I just don't know how they hook up and work as compared to the analog system.

Tom

[Horizon 0]

Hi Tom.

 

>Hoizan are you saying that I need to run a RG59 single Coax and a Cat5 multi stran cable for power use. That way if I wanted to

>go to a IP system then I could only add balhm converters.

You only need baluns if you are sending analog video over the Cat5. To use Cat5 with IP cameras, you will need to learn how to crimp the plastic RJ45 plugs. Not difficult, but takes practise. Note that there are two types of plugs; those for stranded core Cat5, and those for solid core Cat5. Get the wrong one, and the crimps don't work!

 

>Am I reading you correctly that I do not want to run the RG59 Siamese cable?

Yes, instead of siamese, you run Cat5 alongside the RG59. Cat5 for power, coax for video. No baluns required.

 

>I have not installed my system yet and Costco has a HD -NRA 8 camera 1080P system for the same price that I paid for my

>12 camera analog system. If I were you would you do the IP system. I just don't know how they hook up and work as compared to the analog system.

Yes, I'd go with IP, but this is largely because I'm familiar with it. Others like HD-SDI because there is less messing about with settings, although I can't speak of this from experience. One day I'll get some HD-SDI gear to play with.

Usually it's a matter of following the instructions, which are hopefully clearly written, and not a mangled mixture of Chinese and English (Chinglish).

The other thing is that in New Zealand, HD-SDI is not very popular. If I look on TradeMe (the main NZ auction site), I see 8 listings for HD-SDI, mostly from the same seller. If I look for IP cameras, there are over 300 listings. This tells me that in NZ at least, IP is the way of the future. It's kind of like VHS versus Beta, or BluRay versus HD-DVD. This may be different in your country, but the uptake of HD-SDI here is not very stunning.

 

I can't find any details of your Costco camera on the 'net, so here are some things you should take into account:

 

IP

*The cable (usually Cat5) is cheap to buy, but you are limited to 100 meters maximum. This is a limitation of the Ethernet standard, not the cable.

*Crimping the RJ45 plugs onto Cat5 is tricky. You will need to practise to make good crimps. Some deals include pre-made cable, which is nice!

*If you get a POE (Power Over Ethernet) capable NVR (Network Video Recorder) and cameras, you can power the cameras directly from the NVR. Its convenient because you don't have to run a separate power cable to each camera, the power is sent down the Ethernet cable.

*If the NVR supports eight cameras, make sure it has the eight camera ports (RJ45 sockets) built into it. Some cheap NVRs require you to buy a separate network switch, which adds to the cost!

*If the NVR is ONVIF (Open Network Video Interface Forum) compatible, then you have a better chance of using cameras from other manufacturers. Otherwise you need to buy cameras from the same folks that you bought the setup from. I think the standard is up to ONVIF 2.3 now??? This feature may be useful a few years later if a camera needs to be replaced.

*There can be a lot of messing around and confusion with IP addresses.

 

HD-SDI

*Mostly used to upgrade from existing analog setups, where Ethernet cables can't be installed easily or cheaply.

*Fussy about the quality of the coax you use.

*Maximum distance is limited by the coax quality.

*Very similar to analog video to wire up. Coax for video, and separate power to each camera.

*It's easier if you want to add or replace or upgrade cameras, as HD-SDI equipment is supposed to be interchangeable.

 

Analog/composite

*Very forgiving about cheap dodgy coax.

*Can be used with coax and separate power, allowing upgrade to HD-SDI, or Cat5 (with a balun at each end), allowing upgrade to an IP system, or coax and Cat5 allowing upgrading to pretty much anything.

*Extremely easy to replace and upgrade cameras. Practically any manufacturer's composite video camera will work. Panasonic, Sony, Samsung, Bosh, Pelco, Pacom...

*Usually it provides "good enough" quality. Choose the camera and the lens that best captures the scene.

 

This is just some thoughts and opinions. Maybe someone else would like to add to them?

[TGMcCallie 0]

Horizon: You are very helpful.

Here is the model of the Q-See NVR system: You can pull I up and give me your ideas.

QC858-2 which consists of NVR model QC858-6P4-2 and 6 cameras model QCN8012B

 

The only thing that I question is CMOS cameras. I have researched them and they are supposed to have been

greatly improved.

 

It says the NVR has 8 ports and it lists the manufacturer's that make compatible cameras.

 

If you will, please smoke it over and let me have your thinking, whether it be good or bad.

 

Thanks

Tom

[the toss 0]

Hi the toss. I see the problem here.

When I say "RG6" you hear "cable TV coax".

 

No, what I hear is RG6. RG6 is a grade of cable manufactured to a certain set of parameters. RG59 is a different grade of cable manufactured to a different set of parameters. Each cable can be manufactured using copper or ccs or cca and as long as it meets the defining characteristics of the grade (RG6 , RG59 etc) there is no problem. All it means is that we have a cable that is top quality or a cable that is low quality however both will meet the determining characteristics.

 

What I disagree with is the claim that all RG6 is unsuitable.".

 

As I said it is only unsuitable in the wrong environment. By the time you find out it may well be too late.

 

There is plenty of solid (or full) copper cored RG6 coax available. I'm moderately familiar with Belden, so here's a link to some:

It's designed for CCTV, and it meets the RG6 requirements. Solid copper core, 95% braid and foil..".

 

That is a bit like having a Ford that is designed to be a Volvo - it doesn't make sense. Like I said before it has nothing to do with having a solid copper core or 95% shielding - it is the design of the shielding that matters as well as all those other characteristics that define the cable like dielectric capacitance, velocity factor etc.

 

So now it's clear that TGMcCallie wants to upgrade to HD-SDI, I would highly recommend that he choses his coax carefully, so that it will support the HD-SDI cameras that he wants to install. Personally, I'd go with an IP based system, but that's just my opinion, and everyone is entitled to there own choice. I also recomment that TGMcCallie follows tommcctv's advice and also runs CAT5 cable for power. CAT5 is relatively cheap, and in my opinion (again!) you'd be a bit crazy not to run it.

!

I would question his desire to use HD-SDI (which was designed for getting HD around broadcast studios ) rather than using HD-CVI or HD-TVI both of which give IP quality pics at a fraction of the price of HD-SDI. HD-CVI & HD-TVI will also carry audio & control datd for PTZ should it be required. Max distance for HD-SDI is 100m on top quality coax HD-CVI & HD-TVI is around 500m.

[jazzar 0]

Not really used rg6 for any cctv but found the following - stating rg6 specifically for CCTV from VERY REPUTABLE companies:-

 

http://docs-europe.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/05fa/0900766b805faece.pdf

http://www.pelco.com/sites/global/en/sales-and-support/support-services/technical-information/video-cable.page

 

just to add to the confusion over this. I have also noticed some rg6 specs stating cable is 50 ohm so are their different types of RG6 - CURIOUS NOW myself - knowledge shared broadens ones horizons.

[Horizon 0]

Hi TGMcCallie.

That looks like quite a good system. I can't find any details on the camera's performance though. It would be nice to find out how it handles low light. Also, I can't find any reviews for the Qsee system.

 

Ask some questions on this sub-forum:

http://www.cctvforum.com/viewforum.php?f=19 (IP/Megapixel Cameras and Software Solutions), and ask these people. They will be able to set you straight a lot better than I can. Some of them are very familiar with the Qsee products.

 

Cheers!

[TGMcCallie 0]

Thanks, I will.

[the toss 0]

Not really used rg6 for any cctv but found the following - stating rg6 specifically for CCTV from VERY REPUTABLE companies:-

 

http://docs-europe.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/05fa/0900766b805faece.pdf

http://www.pelco.com/sites/global/en/sales-and-support/support-services/technical-information/video-cable.page

 

just to add to the confusion over this. I have also noticed some rg6 specs stating cable is 50 ohm so are their different types of RG6 - CURIOUS NOW myself - knowledge shared broadens ones horizons.

 

Jazzar - you are messing with my brain. Maybe everything I've learned from 20 years as a microwave radio engineer is wrong ( or maybe the Chinese technocrats have developed their own set of rules) It certainly does warrant further investigation & if I'm wrong then I will eat humble pie. The characteristic impedance was ALWAYS one of the prime definers of a coax cable before you went to the secondary technical characteristics.

If this is true then I don't know what to believe any more.

[the toss 0]

OK , my brain has Google stress . It seems that where there was once order , chaos now prevails. Apparently the ONLY certainty is that RG stands for "radio guide" (coax). The identification numbers following the "RG" are mostly random , arbitary & have no rhyme or reason. There are some manufacturers that attempt to adhere to the standard as it once was but they are few and far between.

This is a brief description of how it USED to work.

examples -

RG59 - RG means coax 59 means Zo=75^ this cable conformed to a standard set of published characteristic guidelines.

Suffixes - M (RG59M) - military spec

U (RG59u) - suitable for UHF (meaning it wasn't the best for lower freq)

I think there was another suffix that described the outer sheathing (B= burial A= aerial)

 

RG58 - RG = coax 58 means Zo=50^ suffixes the same as above

 

It would seem that it has all been dumbed down & the RG number simply describes the physical characteristics of the cable rather that the electrical characteristics.

 

If my memory doesn't fail me I seem to recall that the ARRL handbook had an excellent description of coax nonclomenture.

 

Needless to say I will cease advising against RG6 and concentrate my comments more on the shielding construction.

[TGMcCallie 0]

Looks like I stirred up a lot of confusion when I asked about RG6 for use in cabling my security system. For this I apologize.

At least we got quite some understanding about certain types of cables, I hope.

 

I have not definitely made up my mind about which system I will purchase. I am returning the Samsung unit that I purchased from Sam's. I am afraid that the video resolution is not what I am after. I would end up replacing it with a HD 1080p unit later

so cabling for it would have to be changed.

 

I am purchasing a Q-See NVR 1080p IP HD system from Costco. I will be testing it out, and if the video outcome is what I want it to be I will most likely keep it.

I will be installing it with RG59 solid core cable with 95% full copper shield, AND separate Code5e full copper internet cable as the system will be powered over the internet.

 

If you like you can view the details of the Q-See unit in the post that I have made in a sub section of this forum titled "IP/Megapixel Cameras and Software Solutions.

 

I would appreciate it if you would view it and give me your opinion. You can google the NVR model # and camera model # to get the specifications.

 

Thanks for everyone's valuable informative information.

 

Tom

[ak357 0]

 

I am purchasing a Q-See NVR 1080p IP HD system from Costco. I will be testing it out, and if the video outcome is what I want it to be I will most likely keep it.

 

I will be installing it with RG59 solid core cable with 95% full copper shield, AND separate Code5e full copper internet cable as the system will be powered over the internet.

 

Woow

[Horizon 0]

Hi Tom.

If you buy the Qsee QC858-2, you won't need any other cables, since Qsee provides pre-made ones for the cameras. Infact, they provide everything you need to set it up. You don't use coax with IP cameras, so don't buy any.

[TGMcCallie 0]

Hi Tom.

If you buy the Qsee QC858-2, you won't need any other cables, since Qsee provides pre-made ones for the cameras. Infact, they provide everything you need to set it up. You don't use coax with IP cameras, so don't buy any.

 

Thanks for that info. I just did not know what quality of cable the 100 ft. rolls were. They are round and hook up with RJ45

connectors so I figure they are Cat5e. What would you think? I guess I could call Q-See to see if they know.

 

I notice the camera is Hd 1089p but CMOS. The angle of view is only 50 to 55 degrees. I think I will buy them and test them out to see what they can do. If I don't like them I can return them for full purchase price plus shipping and handling.

 

Tom

[Horizon 0]

Hi the toss.

Yeah, I feel the pain as well. It's been an interesting couple of days filling in the gaps on what I knew and assummed I knew about coax. Thank you for motivating me to do this.

 

Yeah, the RG standards are a mess. I thought it was tightly controlled, but seems to be a free-for-all now.

It looks to only be defining the diameter of the center conductor. Well, that and that a RG6 connector will crimp onto a RG6 cable. RG6 and RG59 still have a characteristic impedance of 75 ohms, but the other specs (return loss etc) are all over the place. The only way to really tell what you're getting is to have a look at the datasheets.

 

I most cases, you are correct to tell people not to use RG6, because most people think RG6 is the aluminium braided, copper-clad-steel cable TV coax. This stuff is no good for CCTV, although it is really cheap to buy (copper is expensive, compared to steel and alluminium).

 

However, if the person wants to use RG6 because they have a bucket full of RG6 connectors (don't ask!), then 100% copper video grade RG6 will work fine.

[Horizon 0]

Hi tom.

Yes the cable Qsee supply should be fine.

[ak357 0]

Hi the toss.

Yeah, I feel the pain as well. It's been an interesting couple of days filling in the gaps on what I knew and assummed I knew about coax. Thank you for motivating me to do this.

 

Yeah, the RG standards are a mess. I thought it was tightly controlled, but seems to be a free-for-all now.

It looks to only be defining the diameter of the center conductor. Well, that and that a RG6 connector will crimp onto a RG6 cable. RG6 and RG59 still have a characteristic impedance of 75 ohms, but the other specs (return loss etc) are all over the place. The only way to really tell what you're getting is to have a look at the datasheets.

 

I most cases, you are correct to tell people not to use RG6, because most people think RG6 is the aluminium braided, copper-clad-steel cable TV coax. This stuff is no good for CCTV, although it is really cheap to buy (copper is expensive, compared to steel and alluminium).

 

However, if the person wants to use RG6 because they have a bucket full of RG6 connectors (don't ask!), then 100% copper video grade RG6 will work fine.

Just curios

have u ever use/tested RG 6 ( any variation ) with cameras ?

[the toss 0]

Well all I can say is that if you are going to use RG6 then make sure it is copper centre with 95% copper braid shield (NOT FOIL). Then again such a cable would simply be a heavy duty low loss RG59 to me.

[Horizon 0]

Hi ak357. I've got a camera at home on a 15 meter length of Belden 9248

http://www.belden.com/techdatas/metric/9248.pdf

But unfortunately with that length, I could probably get away with using anything. My preference these days is to use twisted-pair.

 

The point I've been wanting to draw people's attention to is that there are reputable cable manufacturers that are offering RG6 for video use. The RG6 is claimed (no I haven't tested it) to have lower attenuation than RG59, allowing longer camera runs.

Or you can use twisted-pair, which has its own advantages.

[Horizon 0]

Hi the toss.

Yep, I think you've hit that one on the head, with the video RG6 being a beefed up RG59.

 

Wow, there's so many RG59 and RG6 variations out there!

[the toss 0]

It seems to have gone down the same road as audio power ratings. Everything used to be rated in watts rms. It was a standard rating that everyone understood. Then the smart-arses came along and started using peak power , peak to peak power , instantaneous peak power and peak music power. All of which looked fantastic on the spec sheet. This is how we come to have 4" speakers pumping out 250W where-as it would require a bank of 4 x15" speakers to do the ame job in RMS power.

[Ninety 0]

What about this? Claims hdsdi up to 600'

CCS RG6

http://www.unixcctv.com/_e/Paige_Brand_Cables/product/CB-X06-7X6AFQ2B1/Paige_cable_1000ft_RG6_Quad_shield_Coax_Cable_White.htm

[Don Stephens 0]

What about this? Claims hdsdi up to 600'

CCS RG6

http://www.unixcctv.com/_e/Paige_Brand_Cables/product/CB-X06-7X6AFQ2B1/Paige_cable_1000ft_RG6_Quad_shield_Coax_Cable_White.htm

 

The shielding would be a major concern for me as it's not copper. It doesn't surprise me to see this coming from Unix though...

[the toss 0]

What about this? Claims hdsdi up to 600'

CCS RG6

http://www.unixcctv.com/_e/Paige_Brand_Cables/product/CB-X06-7X6AFQ2B1/Paige_cable_1000ft_RG6_Quad_shield_Coax_Cable_White.htm

 

Considering that it is generally accepted that HD-SDI is limited to about 100m on top quality RG59 I would put this in the "Pigs might fly" category

[TGMcCallie 0]

Get your Cat6 from Home Depot. It is 158.00 for roll of 1,000 ft. It is SOLID COPPER.

Their RG6 is Solid Copper also.