Please Help selecting/finding a camera

[metricus 0]

Hi forum. You have surely seen many cases like mine.

 

I am a DIY and tried to do an easy setup using an IP camera (Lorex).

The more I worked the more I got frustrated and I see that Lorex does not have a good name here.

 

In short the cameras are LNC226X. They are in general a great idea but the hardware and mainly the software are buggy and look like a poorly tested and unfinished job.

 

I searched some other mfgs: Hikvision, Swann, Grandstream, Mobotix etc. The search is intensive and I don't seem to find what I want/like

 

So my qestion to you is can you put me out of my misery and point me into some decent manufacturers that actually have what I'm loking for?

 

Here is what I liked about this Lorex cam:

 

Not terribly expensive

Bullet easy to point and install.

720p (can be more)

WiFi IP-Cam

SD card and NAS recording (I like the SD recording as it does not depend/overload wifi)

Acessible on Android (IOS) even outside the LAN

SD recordings are also acessible outside LAN

Outdoor (IP66) Day/Night, All that stuff....

 

Swann seems to have something similar but reviews are even worse than Lorex

Hikvision has good stuff but no WiFi to what I can see. Prices go higher

 

Plase help!

[buellwinkle 0]

That's a tall order as the better cameras are PoE, not WiFi. The only one I can think off at the lower price end is the Hikvision ds-2cd2532f-iws. It's WiFi, 3MP (but can be downgraded to 720P or 1080P), has an SD card slot for local recording and playback, but it's not a bullet.

 

If you want a bullet, check out the Brickcom WOB-200Np, it's 1080P, WiFi and on camera SD card recording. This is probably the only WiFi camera I would buy as it flat out works with a powerful radio and large antenna. WiFi just does not work well outdoors unless you have a mesh network setup outdoors. If anyone can reach an indoor consumer grade WiFi router, this is it. Of course if you get a few of these it will overload your WiFi network.

 

Honestly, can't even imagine why someone would use WiFi for HD security cameras, just seems like the cumbersome & expensive & non-reliable. First you'll need an outlet to plug in the power wall wort adapter. Since it's outdoors it has to be GFI protect, so getting an electrician to install this near the camera has to be way more expensive than getting him to install an Ethernet cable and use PoE. Second, you will not likely have decent enough WiFi signal outdoors if your WiFi router is indoors. So you'll likely need a WiFi access point wired near the camera. Lastly, the problem with WiFi is latency, so while you may have more than enough bandwidth to support 1080P, you may not have the latency requirements meaning you could drop frames for choppy video, especially with multiple cameras and you using WiFi for other purposes like Netflix streaming, tablets, laptops, Tivos, etc.

[Digiscan 0]

I'm a newb compared to buellwinkle, so I have nothing to add to what he said about those cameras.

 

I think the reason the OP wants Wifi is the same reason it's a hugely requested feature on most entry level consumer cams: it's easy as pie to get going, and no wiring needed that doesn't already exist.

 

The problem, which buell already mentioned, is that it just simply, truly doesn't lend itself well to this (security cameras). There is a reason why wifi is so ubiquitous in entry level cameras (go to amazon, it's got tons of them), but "mysteriously" missing from higher end, more expensive cameras. It's because the manufacturers know it's just a very difficult requirement to meet. The low end cameras do it because they are 99% indoor only, and they sell on features, not really on how the cameras actually do.

 

Dropcam is the premier consumer grade camera IMO and it still has no outdoor model. Homemonitor.me does have an outdoor wifi camera, and it's fairly well reviewed on Amazon. Its picture quality is poor compared to a cheaper wired POE camera, as far as I'm concerned. Here is their $253 (amazon) camera outdoors:

That looks really bad compared to a wired camera costing 2/3rd the price (e.g.

). This also enhances the apparent clarity by tightening the field of view quite a lot.

 

I strongly recommend the OP do what many of us do, which is start at the place where we think wifi is good and move away from it for this. Once you get comfy with the idea of wired your options open way up.

[buellwinkle 0]

If anyone can pull of WiFi it's me as I have electrical outlets put under each eave during constructions for holiday lights, but not very common. I was looking at new homes for sale and the model homes had a WiFi camera at the entrance to each home and it was plugged into an outlet at the bottom of the door with the wire going down the wall. It was so funny, all I had to do to thwart their security is unplug it.

[metricus 0]

Thank you. I was expecting to hear something in those lines.

I do understand and also see the predominance of PoE. I may reconsider this...

 

But let me focus on data load: This is what I liked at the Lorex. It can record locally on SD without loading the network whether wifi or not. Then if someone "scratched your car" you can check last night's recordings. Otherwise the camera just records 5-min clips one after the other overwriting the oldest one. I thought that was decent idea for a consumer security.

It can also save on NAS but here, like you say, you eat-up bandwidth for nothing most of the time.

 

Another aspect is that if you loose wifi for some reason it keeps recording which is a good thing. If you are paranoid you can record on both. You can also conect it PoE. Pretty flexible that Lorex.

 

In terms of 2532 IWS: The main reason for bullet is that I install them on walls not eaves. I could get a wall bracket but...

I will keep looking.

[metricus 0]

Thank you Digiscan.

 

It sounds that I have to reconsider Wifi. Or get a wifi access point behind the wall.

In terms of power (what buellwinle was saying) they are located at the top of the rake and I have attics behind the wall where I can run the low voltage wire (ethernet) through the brick and plug into power in the attic. All OK.

FYI I do have outlets under eves but the location is too low for security camera.

[buellwinkle 0]

The 2532 has a 3-axis lens, so it can be mounted vertically on a wall without any special mount. Many cameras have SD and continuous recording sounds good but 64GB is very limited and SD cards are NAND Flash and have limited amount of writes so it's unknown how long it will last. Some have reported months, some have had theirs for a year.

 

Also, outside of Hikvision, Dahua and Mobotix not many that support SD card recording have a built in way of playing it back. With most, you have the video as a file on the SD card you can download to your PC and play, tough to do when there's thousands of videos and you don't know which contains what you want. So make sure the camera you chose has a good way of playing it back. Another approach is a separate Windows app where it lets you play back what's recorded on SD in an organized fashion and that's Axis and ACTi.

 

 

Also, if you have outlets, then consider Powerline, more reliable and you can have say a PoE switch in your attic that powers/connects a few PoE cameras, then use Powerline to get the connection back to your router.

[metricus 0]

I noticed that the 2532 may be installed vertically. I am good with that. What happens if there is direct sunlight on it. I have 2 places where it will get sun on it. I am not familiar with domes and how they reflect light.

I like the unit otherwise.

If I were to drop wifi and SD I would choose the EXIR ones.

 

Running ethernet cable doesn't sound that bad anymore. I do have a NAS but I wanted to avoid runing it all the time. Did not think about the limited lifespan of SD. Hmmmm...

[Digiscan 0]

I really don't think the lifespan of SD is too big a deal. Solid state drives have the same issue. Although a cheap USB drive is going to have a limited lifespan if written/read often, a good SD card, like a good SSD is going to outlast the likely scenario in which you need it. Here was an interesting test using an SSD: http://us.hardware.info/reviews/4178/10/hardwareinfo-tests-lifespan-of-samsung-ssd-840-250gb-tlc-ssd-updated-with-final-conclusion-final-update-20-6-2013 With a micro SD that's fully re-writing, say, every couple of days, I expect you'll still get some years out of it to be honest (http://superuser.com/questions/17350/whats-the-life-expectancy-of-an-sd-card).

[buellwinkle 0]

Slightly misleading in that they used the "pro" version of the SSD vs. what most consumers buy. The difference is that commercial grade SSD drives like what's typically used in IT departments has a lot of spare sectors that take over for failed sectors. So that 250GB drive they tested costs more than double what consumers pay and for all I know may be a 500GB drive with half spare sectors where a consumer grade drive may have only a small amount of spare sectors. Then enter the $5-30 microSD card with fewer sectors and many of unknown quality. Also, I believe a cameras say in a driveway with cars, people, animals triggering MD, I think a typical 1080P camera can fill up that 64GB card in a day.

 

But since you are knowledgeable in the area, here's my dilemma. I wrote some quick code on an Arduino to update the OSD on a Hikvision camera with current temperature using a temp sensor. I figured it would run once an hour and exclude updating on duplicates, meaning if the temperature didn't change by more than one degree, don't update the camera. But say worst case, 24 updates per day or 8,760 writes per year to the same sector on NAND Flash (same tech as SSD or SD cards) on board the camera used for cameras settings. Do you think I'll hit a wall, say in the next 3-5 years of useful life of the camera or it's insignificant?

[Digiscan 0]

But since you are knowledgeable in the area, here's my dilemma. I wrote some quick code on an Arduino to update the OSD on a Hikvision camera with current temperature using a temp sensor. I figured it would run once an hour and exclude updating on duplicates, meaning if the temperature didn't change by more than one degree, don't update the camera. But say worst case, 24 updates per day or 8,760 writes per year to the same sector on NAND Flash (same tech as SSD or SD cards) on board the camera used for cameras settings. Do you think I'll hit a wall, say in the next 3-5 years of useful life of the camera or it's insignificant?

I wish I could help, but perhaps my links portrayed me as more knowledgeable than I am

 

I hadn't compared pro vs consumer grade SSDs, and certainly the quality of flash is different. I know that Kingston was getting hassled lately when they started selling an SSD with slower NAND than what most of the early (including review) models had used.

 

One of my hikvisions is running at 720P because it's indoors and on a 32 GB card recording 24/7 I just checked now and it is amazingly going as far back as a week. That's only 5 GB/day! I think it's at 20 FPS, 15 at least. My 3 MP hikvisions at 15 FPS are taking up about 50 GB/day, so your math at one day = 64 GB card is dead on for those ones. I have no idea how the cube is using 1/10th as much capacity even though it is on about 1/3rd the resolution. I think it must be that, since it is in a room, very little is changing most of the time so it's able to compress tighter, whereas the outdoor cams have constant lighting changes, tree moving, etc.

[metricus 0]

That's a lot of great info. Thank you.

I was thinking the other day that I will stay with the SD card and WiFi idea. In the same line with what Digiscan is saying memory cards will only get cheaper and better. I would hate to rely on my NAS only. Just as with Wifi, it's good though that I have more options.

 

I am thinking to go with the Hikvision 2532 and move away from bullets. What I like about the domes is that people cannot tell where it's pointed and how wide the viewing angle is.

I also tried their app for Android and it looks good. Pitty I cannot connect to some test 2532 so I can get an idea of the capabilities.

 

Like I said I am only a home user in a good neighborhood so I don't need to go paranoid with safety. It matters a lot that they exist (are visible) and there is a sign on lawn about video surveillance. In the same time, I don't want to spend 200$/cam on a piece of junk that is nearly useless. I would love to get a Mobotix but I have a wife...

 

A bit of philosophy.... I learned this when I took over my Alarm System and went DIY. It seems there is quite a difference between the point of view of a professional installer and a DIY which has nothing to do with how much knowledge either one has. It's just that the priorities are different.

 

Any suggestions where to get a 2532? Tried Amazon but they have without wifi. I'll try ebay. Found them on alibaba (aliexpress) with $160 english firmare. Ships from China... Any advice? Never tried alibaba.

[Digiscan 0]

That's a lot of great info. Thank you.

I was thinking the other day that I will stay with the SD card and WiFi idea. In the same line with what Digiscan is saying memory cards will only get cheaper and better. I would hate to rely on my NAS only. Just as with Wifi, it's good though that I have more options.

 

I am thinking to go with the Hikvision 2532 and move away from bullets. What I like about the domes is that people cannot tell where it's pointed and how wide the viewing angle is.

I also tried their app for Android and it looks good. Pitty I cannot connect to some test 2532 so I can get an idea of the capabilities.

 

Like I said I am only a home user in a good neighborhood so I don't need to go paranoid with safety. It matters a lot that they exist (are visible) and there is a sign on lawn about video surveillance. In the same time, I don't want to spend 200$/cam on a piece of junk that is nearly useless. I would love to get a Mobotix but I have a wife...

 

A bit of philosophy.... I learned this when I took over my Alarm System and went DIY. It seems there is quite a difference between the point of view of a professional installer and a DIY which has nothing to do with how much knowledge either one has. It's just that the priorities are different.

 

Any suggestions where to get a 2532? Tried Amazon but they have without wifi. I'll try ebay. Found them on alibaba (aliexpress) with $160 english firmare. Ships from China... Any advice? Never tried alibaba.

A couple of less expensive US-based sources I can think of include wrightwoodsurveillance, which I haven't used, but buell recommends it (saving him a post hehe). I've ordered a few cams from LTS Incorporated, which re-brands Hikvision cameras and is located in New Jersey. They ship quickly and English firmware also works on the cams.

 

As a DIYer myself I think the market has a lot of products aimed at us, but there are many sacrifices made in the process, generally it has to do with the quality of the camera. The learning curve on a low-end professional solution (e.g. with the camera you're talking about) is much higher than with something you will buy at Best buy or Walmart, but the pay off is far greater. You'll end up with a greatly superior camera.

 

If you insist on wifi, I do think SD is a must because when the signal drops you're still recording to the SD. My indoor cube is setup with wifi and it's been very reliable, but I don't trust it to get everything or maintain high bandwidth 24/7, so the SD covers me in that regard.

 

If you get that dome you're looking at and eventually decide wifi isn't going to cut it, you're still left with an excellent camera that can be wired in.

[metricus 0]

Speaking of English Firmware. What is the deal here? I read some horror stories that when you upgrade "international firmware" you end up with chinese firmware which pretty much bricks your cam. Is this true? Any way around this junk?

 

Wrightwood sells it for $280. I don't mind giving it a shot at 160...

 

Also: I want to say that the 79-degree viewing angle at 4mm lens is enough. Is there a way to order/change the lens to 2.8 if I need wider angle? Is it changeable or just get another one and sell the 4mm on ebay?

[buellwinkle 0]

In theory you can change the lens but you would have to have one that perfectly fits, too long and it will hit the dome, too short and you'll get IR bleed. Also, the lens is glued in, so you'll need to remove the glue. Also where did you get $280, I thought it's closer to $200 I believe for the non-wifi 2532.

 

Careful when they say English firmware because it could be hacked firmware, then when you update firmware it reverts to Chinese. It should be an English camera, if you have a doubt, ask them what happens if you upgrade firmware, will it stay English. One thing about Aliexpress is if you get a camera and you don't like it or wrong camera, many will take it back, BUT, you have to pay shipping back to China with tracking, not cheap.

[metricus 0]

It does look that all the lower priced are not upgradable without a hack.

I swear to god, this morning wrightwood had it at 280-something. I must be getting crazy. Now I see it (the IWS model with 2.8 lens) at 234. The IS model is at 214.

 

As Winnie-the-Pooh put it: Oh bother!

[metricus 0]

I have decided to go with the 2532 IWS. To me it makes sense to combine Wifi with SD recording. This way you keep a lot of resources free (bandwidth, NAS access etc). It is also good that you still have the wired option and the NAS option just in case...

 

I have opened another thread regarding the Chinese/English versions (Brown vs White box). There is a good price difference and I would like to clearly understand what happens there. Vendors say there is no differnce between cams.

 

Thank you all for the the time you took helping me.