BrownChiLD 0 Posted November 27, 2014 Hi Guys I was thinking.. for PoE Camera deployments... I'm thinking of manually wiring for PoE.. because: 1) using POE Power injectors adds 20-30USD costs / camera.. 2) using Switches w/ PoE ports are even more expensive! I figured why not just get a 12v DC adapter w/ 5Amps and manually solder 4 cameras to it? basically Camera ==> Cat6 UTP ==> regular gigabit switch (cheap) |= (splice it and extract the pairs assigned to poe power) ==> 12vDC adapter This saves $$$ .. so we're thinking of starting to go this route .. in-fact we may assemble our own plugs /Rj45 ports etc to make deployment easier .. Any thoughts? are you guys already doing so to cut costs? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Q2U 0 Posted November 27, 2014 viewtopic.php?f=19&t=43669 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Boogieman 1 Posted November 27, 2014 When you get to longer distance runs you will have issues unless you properly calculate for attenuation. This seems to be a really silly idea...first, injectors are about under 20 dollars http://www.amazon.com/TP-LINK-TL-PoE150S-Gigabit-Injector-compliant/dp/B001PS9E5I/ref=sr_1_sc_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1417098999&sr=1-1-spell&keywords=poe+inector But if you use a switch your cost per camera will be about 11 dollars http://www.amazon.com/TP-LINK-TL-SF1008P-100Mbps-8-Port-802-3af/dp/B003CFATT2/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1417099048&sr=1-1&keywords=poe+switch Dont forget if you used your passive poe solution you would still need a regular switch so the true cost of using a poe switch is probably 5 dollars per camera...after you buy the power supply. and parts for splicing.. Now to save 5 bux a cam, you are going to spend time splicing the cable on the camera end as well as on the switch end? How much is your time worth...also on the switch end where the cabling is visible to the customer, it will look like total crap.... Bottom line ..dont do it unless you want issues.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thewireguys 3 Posted November 27, 2014 Yea this is a really bad idea. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrownChiLD 0 Posted November 28, 2014 @ALL Thanks for the feedback guys..but hear me out. Scenario 1: Cheap 8port switch w/ POE is 146USD http://www.amazon.com/TP-LINK-TL-SG1008PE-8-Port-Gigabit-802-3at/dp/B00E6LID0S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&tag=cc4m-20&qid=1417142583&sr=8-1&keywords=TL-SG1008PE (the one you guys linked is 8port SW w/ just 4port POE This setup supports only 7 Cameras (1 port is for the backbone back to the NVR) So that gives me an 21USD additional cost / camera.. Scenario 2: DIY 1pc 12v adaptor 5a is just 11usd around here.. good to power 8cams 1pc to 8 splitter is 3 USD 1pc 8port desktop switch is 15USD (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&tag=cc4m-20&field-keywords=TL-SF1008D) The splicing and connecting is basically just a bit of labor (can be ignored) Total cost: USD 29! USD 29/ 7 cameras = 4.15USD / camera.. now that's a HUGE difference. heck even if i spend a little more for quality switch i can get the total to under 50USD easy. or under 10usd max cost per camera Now multiply that to a 32 or 64 camera project... See what i mean? With regards to quality of deployment, you need not preach to the choir! I'm one who is really into investing for quality! and I always recommend proper, professional design/plans... but what can you do when your stupid competitors are dropping their prices like there's no tomorrow? You need to find way to cut down your own costs. I can sacrifice camera quality to bang head w/ price wars, or suggest analog CCTV.. but i rather recommend to my customers a good IP camera system, and just cut corners somewhere else... so long as the thing works and is stable. Aesthetics on the other hand, customers here are willing to live w/ for every cent of savings they can get (not the way i would live) .. and besides, the aesthetic issue would be hidden in the ceilings or control room, and wont make any difference for the field cameras. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Q2U 0 Posted November 28, 2014 You're much like some of my customers and it kinda goes like this... Customer: "What do you think about this idea?" Me: "That's not good idea, for these reasons..." Customer: "But I was thinking I could do it because of this reason!" Me: "Like I said before, it's a bad idea...also because of these additional reasons..." Customer: "But I thought it might be OK if I did it this way..." Me: "Sure...knock yourself out...go right ahead..." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Boogieman 1 Posted November 28, 2014 Q2U is right on... Also you calculations are all wrong... You why are you using a 145 dollar switch instead of two of the cheaper 8 ports... So you cost is 90/8 (because of the extra non poe ports you dont lose any poe) = 11.25 a camera Your way = 4.15 Difference is 7.10.... Aside from the technical problems you will have on the longer wire runs, how much is your time worth?? Standing up on the ladder splicing that connection while its cold and raining outside? This is a nonsense idea...and if you do this on a project you are being very penny wise and a pound foolish. Also, the poe switches are all metal and a solid build, not like the plastic stuff you linked to.. Why dont you bring some switches along and show it to the customer so they understand...if 7 dollars a cam is a going to make or break a contract, then you have a seriously flawed business model..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jeromephone 6 Posted November 28, 2014 Non standard install will come back to bite you. You are always going to have someone beat you on total price. You have to establish a reputation for quality work and product. We lost a job where we were 1/2 to a 1/3 of the cost of the successfull "bidder" why well they had a nationally known product and the customer was not as familar with us. We also get work because people know what kind of service and product we supply. There is only one lowest cost operator but there can be several quality contractors. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrownChiLD 0 Posted November 29, 2014 Hi Guys Thanks for the solid inputs ... but it would help if ya'll can be a bit open minded. we all live in different markets.. and different BUSINESS challenges. Aside from TECHNICAL SUPERIORITY debates, there is also BUSINESS SENSE in things.. what good is highquality if you don't sell any? Here's a scenario that is very common here: 5 Installers bid on a Client Project without specifications, just project scope, number of cameras, areas to cover, etc. 1 Quality Installer bids right @ 1300 USD (this is me and a few others who really know what they're doing around here) 4 Installers bid cheap around 1000-1200 USD (usually some chinese businessmen or companies who are just aiming for the lowest quote) Client goes for either one of the two lowest bids Cheap Installer gets the project. Deploys it. Done deal. Client encounters issues, perhaps regret the decision let's say. but bottom line is, IT DOESNT MATTER anymore cause Cheap Installer EARNED. (and may continue to earn due to support calls) Cheap Installer WINS every gawd damn time. I do hate selling crap hence i don't want to push cheap china knockoff cameras and what nots, like most of my competitors. (I carry only major and reputable brands like Axis). Instead im looking for other "innovative" (?) ways to save in costs... So im not being stubborn, we just discussing and exploring... and challenging ideas. so i wish ya'll would have an open mind. not all markets are the same. and unfortunately in our market the markup is soo low that every penny you save helps a lot! @ Q2U haha.. well this line: Me: "Sure...knock yourself out...go right ahead..." -- you do this? so you can understand I AM at this stage as well. basically telling the customer, OK you WIN, you want cheap fine. ill give you cheap. it's either that or i close the door on opportunity. Anyway I just wanted to get that out of the way.. To get back into the discussion though .. 1) How much is Labor = very cheap around here. so i rather have my men up and out in the cold night splicing for additional 15 minutes more w/c basically costs me NOTHING lol .. and besides all the extra splicing/soldering work is not on the CAMERA side but rather on the NVR/Power side/room... so. 2) @ Boogieman = ok that is a GREAT idea.. 2pcs 8port /4poe switches setup may be something i can look at. thanks very much! ..my only concern is i guess i have to run 2 backbone UTP cables to the NVR instead of just 1. but that's still gonna come out cheaper than my initial. I do show a good demo to my clients , and quite good at making them understand the quality i am talking about.while there are some clients who appreciate it, and we do bag those deals easier, MOST will just say "ah I don't need fancy stuff, i just want things that work" .. we can simply stick to our guns/recommendations which is the right way, or at least OFFER a cheaper package that is not necessarily cheaper than competition but at least "CLOSER" to their price.. For example: our good cameras are 113USD each + 21USD cost of POE (for example) Total @ 134USD/camera the competitor cameras are 85USD each + 21USD cost of POE Total @ 106USD / camera That's 28USD difference / camera vs our competition. And that's a significant value. If i can cut my POE cost down to 5USD through innovation (or bad idea as ya'll put it - but still works!) that would come out as just 12USD difference! that makes a big difference in ACTUALLY CLOSING THE DEAL and making bank! and plus I am still serving BETTER quality cameras all together.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Boogieman 1 Posted November 29, 2014 First, you will have to splice on the camera end as well and plug into the 12v female plug...You cannot use the cameras POE via ethernet that only works with a IEEE 802.3af power source... I understand you are trying to save money..but you are WAY better off using hikvision cameras for 85 dollars from aliexpress than using the this technique... Bottom line you should not be looking at savings from the poe end of things.... Here is another suggestion http://find-a-poe.com/product/WS-POE-8-48v60w/ Awesome reviews http://www.amazon.com/WS-POE-8-48v60w-passive-Ethernet-Injector-cameras/dp/B0086SQDMM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&tag=cc4m-20&qid=1417237385&sr=8-1&keywords=poe+midspan using this, you cost for 8 cameras and your cheap switch will be about 6.50 per camera... you can also buy used poe midspans on ebay for 12 cameras for 25 dollars.. http://www.ebay.com/itm/D-LINK-DWL-P1012-12-PORT-PoE-MIDSPAN-/231190478065?pt=US_Network_Switches&hash=item35d406bcf1 Got a big project? 24 ports for $57 or best offer http://www.ebay.com/itm/Power-Dsine-6024-24-Port-PoE-Ethernet-Midspan-External-Hub-PD-6024-AC-M-/390948345052?pt=US_Network_Hubs&hash=item5b065654dc This will be cheaper and better than your proposal... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrownChiLD 0 Posted November 29, 2014 First, you will have to splice on the camera end as well and plug into the 12v female plug...You cannot use the cameras POE via ethernet that only works with a IEEE 802.3af power source...I understand you are trying to save money..but you are WAY better off using hikvision cameras for 85 dollars from aliexpress than using the this technique... Bottom line you should not be looking at savings from the poe end of things.... Here is another suggestion http://find-a-poe.com/product/WS-POE-8-48v60w/ Awesome reviews http://www.amazon.com/WS-POE-8-48v60w-passive-Ethernet-Injector-cameras/dp/B0086SQDMM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&tag=cc4m-20&qid=1417237385&sr=8-1&keywords=poe+midspan using this, you cost for 8 cameras and your cheap switch will be about 6.50 per camera... you can also buy used poe midspans on ebay for 12 cameras for 25 dollars.. http://www.ebay.com/itm/D-LINK-DWL-P1012-12-PORT-PoE-MIDSPAN-/231190478065?pt=US_Network_Switches&hash=item35d406bcf1 Got a big project? 24 ports for $57 or best offer http://www.ebay.com/itm/Power-Dsine-6024-24-Port-PoE-Ethernet-Midspan-External-Hub-PD-6024-AC-M-/390948345052?pt=US_Network_Hubs&hash=item5b065654dc This will be cheaper and better than your proposal... Well, this IS the type of response/advise i came here for.. I must admit i didn't know about the need to splice both sides. i thought if i could just provide the POWER requirements "as is" and things would work.. so that does change the dynamics for me. Thanks for the links, went through em, and did the math.. now i just have to find local sources or bring em in in bulk , but the savings are good enough eitherway, so I am definitely going this route at the very least.. so THANKS VERY MUCH. I owe you one Boogieman!! " title="Applause" /> Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Boogieman 1 Posted November 29, 2014 No problem...good luck.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
