License plate camera recomendation

[brian89gp 0]

I am looking for an IP network camera to be used as a license plate recorder. Speed of cars is <25mph typically. Camera will be approximately 20' off the ground and 50' horizontally. I am getting a laser range finder so I can more accurately give a distance.

 

I really want to stay in a bullet or dome style camera style. I like Dahua and would like to try and stay under $400 for the camera.

[buellwinkle 0]

What is your goal? Are you trying to do LPR and record plate numbers for later search or to create an event based on a plate number match? Do you want the same camera to also view the entire scene or dedicated for plate capture?

 

Bullets and domes are tough. The trick is finding a low light sensitive dome for LPR. The issue is lens. We need to capture plates for LPR at 35-40' and need a 20-25mm lens and not many domes or even bullets come with that level of lens. At 50', you would need about a 30-35mm lens. We use a 50mm and that's marginal at 70'. 20' high is going to be a problem.

[Don Stephens 0]

Your camera is going to be mounted too high based on the distances you've given thus far. Twenty feet high is going to put you at a nearly 22 degree angle from lens to plate. That's about 10 degrees higher than I like to do it and a few degrees over what is needed to make it functional.

 

Is there lighting in the area, or is this camera going to need to have Infrared?

[MaxIcon 0]

I've set up a Hik 2032 bullet for LP capture testing, and the longest lens I could fit is 12mm; longer lenses won't fit in the case. Domes would have the same problem. Generally, you'll need a box cam, enclosure, and appropriate lens.

 

My Hik works at about 50' in the daytime, but at night illumination is an issue. The on-cam IR is totally ineffective, and lighting varies so much on plates that you'd need a dedicated high power source for reliability. Buellwinkle's LP capture setup uses an expensive IR illuminator and a high shutter speed, I believe.

[brian89gp 0]

Its an old neighborhood, houses close to the street, and I have a 6' retaining wall right along my sidewalk. 20' above street level is right about 8' up on my house. So unfortunately, the 20' height is not really possible to make any better.

 

There are street lights but there would need to be IR to supplement it due to shadows.

 

For now this is just to record video of plates. I use Milestone and if I ever go LPR software I'll buy a real nice camera to go along with that nice $1500 license...

 

I was eyeballing the Dahua IPC-HFW5200-IRA, up to 22mm lense. Probably not enough, but getting closer to usable.

[brian89gp 0]

Here is a pic. Was thinking of a capture point near that front car.

 

Pic taken with my iPhone 5s, no flash. This is typical lighting.

 

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/t9te6OWyMc_8TW3OZNyUM_OjPUAK9cPSboUSBa21zvM?feat=directlink

[buellwinkle 0]

If you are going to use Milestone LPR and that's what I use, you have to have the video set at 640x480 and about 4-6fps. Regardless of resolution, for it to find the plate, at least 5% of the image has to be plate with 12px minimum for each character on the plate. To accomplish this, your field of view has to cover about 8' wide or less. Lanes are about 12' wide, so it would cover the center part of the lane. To do this at 50', you need about a 30-35mm lens. I've used 25mm lenses, but for shorter distances, never work for 50'.

 

The camera should be about 30-40 degrees off center from the plate and height should be lower, maybe 10' high at most. I take it your lot is sloped and hence the height. That absolutely won't work, so you'll need to find something at the edge of your lot that will. Once person hid his camera in a mailbox post or maybe inside a mailbox with a false back so the postman doesn't notice or a small decorative column.

 

Since bullets and domes are out (nobody I know makes one with a 30mm+ lens but someone here will prove me wrong), get a nice box camera. I use an Axis q1604, but there may be cheaper ones that will work as well. Get lower resolution as higher resolution really does not help, that will cut costs. See if you can find an old Bosch NBN-733V box camera, they had awesome low light capability. Also a Samsung Wisenet III SNB-5004 will work and a little cheaper than the Bosch. Then put something like a 15-50mm varifocal lens on it, about $100ish. I like Fujinon for this for quality and price.

 

So then comes lighting. You have two choices here. To do it right, you'll need to light-up the area well and have a very good low light camera like the ones I mention. That will not only give you a clear plate, but will show you what the car looks like and reduce noise that will hamper the LPR. You can get a weaker IR light, then rely on the reflectivity and then set the minimum exposure fast enough to read the plate, but all else will be dark and you'll only see 2 headlights and a plate number. Another option is to capture rear plates as they are typically lit, combined with a good low light camera, the plate will be readable.

[brian89gp 0]

I will look at those box camera's and try and figure out if I can make them work.

 

Yea, sloping yard. 10' above street level is laying in the grass on my front yard and I don't really have anything to hide it in. Could I perhaps focus it further down the street to get a better angle?

 

As far as the low light capabilities, that relies on the lx rating in B/W mode and the dB rating of WDR? Bosch camera is .005 lx and 100dB, how would that compare to a .01 lx and 120dB camera?

 

Not planning on LPR, just a camera that can record a readable plate. If I do LPR in the future I'll probably also be able to afford going real high end on the LPR camera's and replace whatever I currently have

[brian89gp 0]

I am horrible at estimating distances. Distance to focal point is between 80 and 100'

 

When I am standing up on my front porch (eye level is 8' above camera level) I can easily read plates during the day with my corrected 20/20 vision, so I am hoping that the angles are sufficient enough for a camera to do it as well.

[buellwinkle 0]

If your are not doing LPR, then you can go higher resolution. At 100', you should look at the Dahua SD59230 PTZ. It has the IR LEDs to go that far and capture a plate. I show a plate at 200' in my review of the camera. Dahua has HLC for compensating for bright objects like headlights, reflective plates. It may be cheaper than a low light box camera + lens + IR illuminator.

[brian89gp 0]

If your are not doing LPR, then you can go higher resolution. At 100', you should look at the Dahua SD59230 PTZ. It has the IR LEDs to go that far and capture a plate. I show a plate at 200' in my review of the camera. Dahua has HLC for compensating for bright objects like headlights, reflective plates. It may be cheaper than a low light box camera + lens + IR illuminator.

 

Thank you, I'll give that a look. A PTZ might end up being quite useful too. I would probably set and forget but it would allow for re-aiming it without needing to break out the ladder.

 

Do you know if Milestone offers any sort of automatic motion tracking with PTZ camera's?

[buellwinkle 0]

Not that I know of. The motion tracking does not have to be part of the same solution, and I've briefly tested it with iSpy Connect, for the purposes of helping that community with the commands needed to control that specific camera. It's free NVR software with a pay for features model and tracking is free, but it does track with iSpy albeit I've yet to see motion tracking with any product that intuitively does what you want. Basically they tend to follow the largest object with any analytic processing. The idea is you can have it track using one software and record with the other. iSpy also has an LPR add on for $50, but never tested it.

[Don Stephens 0]

Its an old neighborhood, houses close to the street, and I have a 6' retaining wall right along my sidewalk. 20' above street level is right about 8' up on my house. So unfortunately, the 20' height is not really possible to make any better.

 

There are street lights but there would need to be IR to supplement it due to shadows.

 

For now this is just to record video of plates. I use Milestone and if I ever go LPR software I'll buy a real nice camera to go along with that nice $1500 license...

 

I was eyeballing the Dahua IPC-HFW5200-IRA, up to 22mm lense. Probably not enough, but getting closer to usable.

 

I'm going to be testing a IPC-HFW5200-IRA (7-22mm) tomorrow. My preliminary guess is that it won't work reliably if your plates are 80-100 feet away. Ours will only be mounted at about 8-10 feet up as well so the results may be a bit skewed for where you'll be mounting it but not by much.

[brian89gp 0]

I'm going to be testing a IPC-HFW5200-IRA (7-22mm) tomorrow. My preliminary guess is that it won't work reliably if your plates are 80-100 feet away. Ours will only be mounted at about 8-10 feet up as well so the results may be a bit skewed for where you'll be mounting it but not by much.

 

I'll be happy to hear your results. I'm seriously looking at the PTZ that buellwinkle mentioned as it seems to meet all the requirements. My only concern is the size, trying to keep things low key.

[brian89gp 0]

Not that I know of. The motion tracking does not have to be part of the same solution, and I've briefly tested it with iSpy Connect, for the purposes of helping that community with the commands needed to control that specific camera. It's free NVR software with a pay for features model and tracking is free, but it does track with iSpy albeit I've yet to see motion tracking with any product that intuitively does what you want. Basically they tend to follow the largest object with any analytic processing. The idea is you can have it track using one software and record with the other. iSpy also has an LPR add on for $50, but never tested it.

 

Ok. I'm going to have two Dahua 4300S camera's pointed each way down the street for the wide angle view, the motion tracking would just be nice to get a high quality full frame view of the action.

[Don Stephens 0]

I'm going to be testing a IPC-HFW5200-IRA (7-22mm) tomorrow. My preliminary guess is that it won't work reliably if your plates are 80-100 feet away. Ours will only be mounted at about 8-10 feet up as well so the results may be a bit skewed for where you'll be mounting it but not by much.

 

I'll be happy to hear your results. I'm seriously looking at the PTZ that buellwinkle mentioned as it seems to meet all the requirements. My only concern is the size, trying to keep things low key.

 

Once you add the mount to the IPC-HFW5200-IRA, it's not much smaller (or lighter) than the PTZ camera that was suggested. Either camera is going to be blatantly obvious.

 

I haven't done a lot of testing with the DH-SD59230S-HN PTZ yet, but it definitely has the better chance of getting you what you need if it's between these two cameras. My only concern would be how it responds to IR bouncing back off the plates at night. I have no idea how well this PTZ camera reacts to that, or what it may look like at 80-100 feet with an IR board that's supposedly made for up to 300 feet.

[buellwinkle 0]

This is a plate capture at 200' at 1080P with the sd59230. Click on the image to make it bigger and click on the four arrows in the lower right of the image to see it in 2MP mode. As you can see, the plate is readable even in the small version below. You don't have to worry about plate reflection because it has HLC that compensates the exposure for bright objects like headlights and reflective plates.

 

[Don Stephens 0]

I'm going to have to eat my words on the IPC-HFW5200-IRA. We tested it yesterday during daylight hours and it was able to pick up a plate as far away at exactly 99.7 feet. That being said, the vehicle was only moving about 10MPH and it was a bit blurred but easy enough to make out.

 

I would say, based on what buellwinkle just posted above, you're going to get way more reliable results from that PTZ. I haven't tested the HFW5200 at night yet, but I can just about guarantee there's no hope of plate capture in low light settings.

[acurags 0]

I'm looking to do LPR as well. I tried a pair of Geovision GV-IP LPR 5R cameras but their performance was terrible due to the lack of zoom. I could not zoom in enough to narrow the field of view to just one lane of traffic. The other problem is that they are only 1.3mp cameras. Anyone have a better alternative? I'm returning these cameras since I've been told they don't work well on plates with red lettering. I already have a pair of 3mp IP cameras as part of my main system for overview but looking to specifically target license plates. I already have the wire run, POE switch and server set up to do the recording. Just need a decent IP LPR camera.

 

Thanks in advance

[mkkoskin 0]

I'm looking to do LPR as well. I tried a pair of Geovision GV-IP LPR 5R cameras but their performance was terrible due to the lack of zoom. I could not zoom in enough to narrow the field of view to just one lane of traffic. The other problem is that they are only 1.3mp cameras. Anyone have a better alternative? I'm returning these cameras since I've been told they don't work well on plates with red lettering. I already have a pair of 3mp IP cameras as part of my main system for overview but looking to specifically target license plates. I already have the wire run, POE switch and server set up to do the recording. Just need a decent IP LPR camera.

 

Thanks in advance

 

I was just about to link GV-IP LPR 5R to this thread, it does have motor zoom (only 3~9mm, 3x optical) over ONVIF (new firmware required), and we've been testing one to replace old analog lpr cams we've used until now.

Image is clear, IR reacts fast, camera works well with any resolution (mainly tested the full 1280x1024). We do not have any red lettered plates to test with but it should not matter as long as it is not reflective but has a reflective background.

 

This is also the only IP LPR cam i've ever tested, so there might be better ones around, i just haven't found any yet.

[buellwinkle 0]

IR, Infra Red, means no go on Red. The only way to capture red letters on plates is to go with white light in day mode. If you use a really good low light camera, you can capture rear plates just using the rear plate light. The other thing I've done is put an LED outdoor narrow spotlight mounted in the landscaping pointed low at the plate, like a 60 or 75W equivalent. You don't want it to distract drivers so make sure it's a very narrow spot light, a hooded fixture and aimed as low as possible. The toll road by me uses flash devices for LPR and toll collection. They used to use trolls but the cost too much. It looks like a lightning storm at night with flashes going off in each lane in both directions.

 

So what cameras fit in this category, nothing from Taiwan, sorry Geovision. The best is Bosch Dinion Starlight 8000MP. 5MP of amazing see in the dark that rivals anything I've seen. Pretty close behind are the 1MP Axis Q1604 and Samsung SNB-5004 or Bosch NBN-733V. These are all box cameras, why, because they have the capability to put the type and quality low lights lens. Hikvision has it's Darkfighter camera, 2MP, have not tried it, but same price range as anything above, so why not go with a brand name were service and support will be top notch. Good bang for the buck lenses are from Fujijon auto-iris, their 5-50mm, 15-50mm, 8-80mm. With Bosch I would go with their 5MP lens because not many make a 5MP lens.

 

You say LPR, but I assume you mean LPC as LPR implies you want to do plate recognition which requires a lower resolution camera. We run our 1.3MP cameras at VGA resolution for LPR as anything larger would use too much CPU power to ingest the plate numbers. If you goal is LPC, then go for as many pixels as you can afford in a super low light camera.

 

Let us know how it works out.

[ssmith10pn 0]

Doesn't matter what color the letters are or what the lighting is,

Do you want to re-invent the wheel or capture plates?

 

 

http://youtu.be/dOgDb94CQtM

 

 

 

 

[buellwinkle 0]

The Genetec Autoview SharpX looks great, is color (so no IR) and pulses the white LEDs, so effectively a flash. Looks like the way to go. Wonder what it costs and if it works as an IP camera without the LPR processors backend device for LPR, I'm guessing not, it's a package. They even show an Illinois plate (red numbers), but only in a daytime demo. I would venture to guess this costs several thousand for the complete package.

 

The Bosch is not seeing red at all as it relies on 850nm IR LEDs, never going to happen, forget Illinois )or Alberta for you Canadians). You can tell from the video because the state name is not showing. Like California, I get great plate capture at night, but you'll never see California on a modern plate because it's red.

 

You don't need a camera purposely made for LPR, because a) the OP want to do LPC, not LPR, b) just about any decent camera can capture plates day or night if configured and installed correctly. When I went booth by booth at ISC West talking to LPR software vendors, I asked what camera should I pair up with their software and 100% of them said the Axis Q1604, ironically even the guy at the Samsung booth, LOL, but he was an LPR partner, not a Samsung employee. Although Samsung does make a good low light 1MP camera that would be good for LPR.

[brian89gp 0]

The Bosch Dinion Starlight 8000MP looks like a pretty amazing camera.

[buellwinkle 0]

That is an amazing camera and ideal for seeing license plates at night in day mode.